why does anet hate core guard & DH?

[mortrialus.3062]

@otto.5684 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I think core guard and DH's best hope is for enough nerfs to over performing specs to lower builds down to their level.

Pre RI nerf I think core guardian was decent. Now? With its current power level, meta classes will need to get somewhere in the range of 20% effectiveness nerf for core guardian or DH to be competitive. It is extremely unlikely this will happen.

Condi Mirage got a 50-70% damage cut on all it's skills. It's not impossible.

My only conclusion is that Anet does not want guardian to have viable dps builds, or they are extremely incompetent. Considering the last 3-4 balance patches, I am not sure which is it anymore.

Agreed. Every since the December balance patch balance has been trending for the worse with less build diversity since Path Of Fire's launch.

[Daishi.6027]

You either get to be sticky with decently sustained burst on a target without letting them get away. OR You get to have decently sustained massive burst.Not both.

For whatever reason A-net decided to nerf the damage instead of the stickyness by nerfing Righteous Instinct's so you can't halfass it with valks, and now forced to take marauder like everyone else. Honestly this was a long time coming and kind of a double standard.

Yes DPS Guard is under-performing right now compared to the likes of Engie, War, Ranger, Rev. However, hopefully soon they will be nerfed in an equivalent way; down to par with everything else that got significantly nerfed around March/April.

I wish they did it all at once, clearly they can't.

Also I wish people would stop jumping to "A-net hates X" when there is no historical precedent for that, and if anything there is more evidence to the contrary.

[Menyus.4610]

@Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

[Math.5123]

@Menyus.4610 said:

@Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.Want me to keep going?

I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

[otto.5684]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" Post RI nerf I took core guardian radiance/zeal/valor to P2, 9 wins and 3 losses. But that is where it caps regardless of your skill level. It cannot compete higher than 1650.

Also, I am not sure what is this new trend of Anet moving threads to class forums. @Stephane Lo Presti.7258 this is a thread discussing core guardian in sPvP. When you move it guardian forums it is the equivalent of closing this thread. This was supposed to be discussion for all people who sPvP to discuss. In guardian forms, only guardian mains will see it.

[praqtos.9035]

@otto.5684 said:@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" Post RI nerf I took core guardian radiance/zeal/valor to P2, 9 wins and 3 losses. But that is where it caps regardless of your skill level. It cannot compete higher than 1650.Players can duo and go beyond 1650 . Living example is Bullet, he is finished at top14 (I dont pretend core guardian is good at the moment :D)Also, I am not sure what is this new trend of Anet moving threads to class forums.The same was done to mesmer thread, its kinda the least active subforum so far as I see... Pretty ded place

[Only Even.6193]

I agree that guardian overall is not perfect but I guess it depends a lot on how you build it, sometimes refering only on what is available on websites won't give you a visual on every aspects of a class, I actually do pretty well in every game mode with my condi core guard, and as I can see, it's far, far from mediocre dps wise, and has a lot of sustainability, and is less dependent than many other dps classes. Here is what you can achieve solo only with your own debuffs/boons :Permanent fury, 25 might, 25 vulnerability, 23k hp, has a bonus it's around 20k underwater, thanks to Permeating Wrath the burning cleave is just insane.

About PvP and WvW, I just replace Bane signet for Wall of reflection, and switching from Unscathed contender to Master of consecration.The burning pressure is really High and I see a lot of players struggling with it, since people nowadays don't use this kind of builds anymore, they don't expect to have 5 burn stacks every second to clean.Aoe burn every 3 reflects, just imagine putting a Wall in front of a charging enemy zerg.

The core guard is not considered meta nowadays but it's not weak, yetIf they buff guardians they have to pay attention to not make it overpowered, resulting in a potential nerf that can cause even more damages to the class/spec.

[Math.5123]

@"Only Even.6193" said:I agree that guardian overall is not perfect but I guess it depends a lot on how you build it, sometimes refering only on what is available on websites won't give you a visual on every aspects of a class, I actually do pretty well in every game mode with my condi core guard, and as I can see, it's far, far from mediocre dps wise, and has a lot of sustainability, and is less dependent than many other dps classes. Here is what you can achieve solo only with your own debuffs/boons :Permanent fury, 25 might, 25 vulnerability, 23k hp, has a bonus it's around 20k underwater, thanks to Permeating Wrath the burning cleave is just insane.

About PvP and WvW, I just replace Bane signet for Wall of reflection, and switching from Unscathed contender to Master of consecration.The burning pressure is really High and I see a lot of players struggling with it, since people nowadays don't use this kind of builds anymore, they don't expect to have 5 burn stacks every second to clean.Aoe burn every 3 reflects, just imagine putting a Wall in front of a charging enemy zerg.

The core guard is not considered meta nowadays but it's not weak, yetIf they buff guardians they have to pay attention to not make it overpowered, resulting in a potential nerf that can cause even more damages to the class/spec.

This is nothing of what the build looks like. And this thread has nothing to do with pve.

[Daishi.6027]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Menyus.4610 said:

@"Saharo Gravewind.5120" said:Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.Want me to keep going?

I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

I agree with what most of you said, particularly how it never really saw to much play in higher tiers and had a harder time in team fights. However, A-net through their actions over many years has made it clear that high play and top stats are not being taken into consideration, just take a look at everything that got nerfed (including guard) from March to April.

That said your highlighted statement is disingenuous at best. You are either lying to prove your side of an argument or are ignorant of the truth. Here are the hard facts and data points that you can find yourself:ESL didn't drop GW2 until around May - April 2017.Chronobunk was broken late 2015 - early 2016 , and got nerfed pretty hard (rightfully so) in January, and more and more as the year went on."Pro league 2016" following those nerfs had 1 mesmer in semifinals NA. Every team NA+EU: except for 1 EU semi-finalist (only with 1 rev) had 2 revs, followed by an ele and a necro.The following year leading up to the ESL cancellation the highest ranked top slots for seasons 3, 4, and 5, were primarily dominated by Engies, Ranger, Rev, and DD. With the most mesmers across those seasons during s3; only having 13 in top slots.By the by, Season 6 where ESL was officially announced to be dropped about mid way through finished with 18 guards, and with only 15 mesmers.Saying GW2 e-sports died because of mesmer is a lie.

[Math.5123]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Menyus.4610 said:

@"Saharo Gravewind.5120" said:Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.Want me to keep going?

I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

I agree with what most of you said, particularly how it never really saw to much play in higher tiers and had a harder time in team fights. However, A-net through their actions over many years has made it clear that high play and top stats are not being taken into consideration, just take a look at everything that got nerfed (including guard) from March to April.

That said your highlighted statement is disingenuous at best.

You are either lying to prove your side of an argument or are ignorant of the truth. Here are the hard facts and data points that you can find yourself:ESL didn't drop GW2 until around May - April 2017.Chronobunk was broken late 2015 - early 2016 , and got nerfed pretty hard (rightfully so) in January, and more and more as the year went on."Pro league 2016" following those nerfs had 1 mesmer in semifinals NA.

Every team

NA+EU: except for 1 EU semi-finalist (only with 1 rev) had 2 revs, followed by an ele and a necro.The following year leading up to the ESL cancellation the highest ranked top slots for seasons 3, 4, and 5, were primarily dominated by Engies, Ranger, Rev, and DD. With the most mesmers across those seasons during s3; only having 13 in top slots.By the by, Season 6 where ESL was officially announced to be dropped about mid way through finished with 18 guards, and with only 15 mesmers.Saying GW2 e-sports died because of mesmer is a lie.

That's only half the truth, look at how the viewing numbers dropped after the initial double Chrono, tempest double Condi rev meta. The numbers never returned to what it was after that.And it might've had something to do with the 0-15 15 minute games. Where one team went afk if they lost a cap or a teamfight.

[Daishi.6027]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Menyus.4610 said:

@"Saharo Gravewind.5120" said:Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.Want me to keep going?

I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

I agree with what most of you said, particularly how it never really saw to much play in higher tiers and had a harder time in team fights. However, A-net through their actions over many years has made it clear that high play and top stats are not being taken into consideration, just take a look at everything that got nerfed (including guard) from March to April.

That said your highlighted statement is disingenuous at best.

You are either lying to prove your side of an argument or are ignorant of the truth. Here are the hard facts and data points that you can find yourself:ESL didn't drop GW2 until around May - April 2017.Chronobunk was broken late 2015 - early 2016 , and got nerfed pretty hard (rightfully so) in January, and more and more as the year went on."Pro league 2016" following those nerfs had 1 mesmer in semifinals NA.

Every team

NA+EU: except for 1 EU semi-finalist (only with 1 rev) had 2 revs, followed by an ele and a necro.The following year leading up to the ESL cancellation the highest ranked top slots for seasons 3, 4, and 5, were primarily dominated by Engies, Ranger, Rev, and DD. With the most mesmers across those seasons during s3; only having 13 in top slots.By the by, Season 6 where ESL was officially announced to be dropped about mid way through finished with 18 guards, and with only 15 mesmers.Saying GW2 e-sports died because of mesmer is a lie.

That's only half the truth, look at how the viewing numbers dropped after the initial

double Chrono, tempest double Condi rev meta

. The numbers never returned to what it was after that.And it might've had something to do with the 0-15 15 minute games. Where one team went afk if they lost a cap or a teamfight.

Okay, I'll admit that was pretty bad. However, that was only for 1 season, and double rev lasted A LOT longer, than double chorno. If those instances hurt anything, it's the lack of professionalism that killed it more.

Besides this was A-nets biggest attempt to push for ESL support, and was announced/marketed/networked in October 2015. Of course it's numbers are going to spike; simply because of the collaboration and marketing. However, correlation isn't causation, and GW2 is not unfamilar with stupid metas (including 3 cele ele, petting zoo, and hambow.) GW2 by the masses, long before the ESL push; was considered uninteresting to watch for several reasons by the majority of it's player base. With that alone, I am not surprised in ANYWAY that the people stopped watching. Sure, that pathetic display didn't help.But it's not fair to blame 1 class, that was broken (and represented) for 1 meta Before pro league, while the other class chronobunk was paired with, was stacking two for a lot longer afterwards; and all while a large portion of people didn't enjoy watching GW2 pvp prior. It's not reasonable to blame chronobunk for the viewership and as the basis for why the Esports died...

Also DH was a pretty reasonable counter to DPS mesmer following S1, and less of a counter to thief once DD existed (until it got nerfed more). Since Mesmer both DPS and chronobunk wasn't making it to top slots, and DH was bad for team fights, it stands to reason DH probably wouldn't climb very high either.

[otto.5684]

@"Only Even.6193" said:I agree that guardian overall is not perfect but I guess it depends a lot on how you build it, sometimes refering only on what is available on websites won't give you a visual on every aspects of a class, I actually do pretty well in every game mode with my condi core guard, and as I can see, it's far, far from mediocre dps wise, and has a lot of sustainability, and is less dependent than many other dps classes. Here is what you can achieve solo only with your own debuffs/boons :Permanent fury, 25 might, 25 vulnerability, 23k hp, has a bonus it's around 20k underwater, thanks to Permeating Wrath the burning cleave is just insane.

About PvP and WvW, I just replace Bane signet for Wall of reflection, and switching from Unscathed contender to Master of consecration.The burning pressure is really High and I see a lot of players struggling with it, since people nowadays don't use this kind of builds anymore, they don't expect to have 5 burn stacks every second to clean.Aoe burn every 3 reflects, just imagine putting a Wall in front of a charging enemy zerg.

The core guard is not considered meta nowadays but it's not weak, yetIf they buff guardians they have to pay attention to not make it overpowered, resulting in a potential nerf that can cause even more damages to the class/spec.

This thread was in sPvP forums before some genius at Anet mover it here. None of what you mentioned has any relevance in sPvP.

[Math.5123]

This is where the discussions are moved to die.

[Derm.4932]

next patch:"We feel like longbow is not where it should be so we have buffed symbol of energy to 1500 range."

[RisenHowl.2419]

Dh works fine in wvw, just takes a little practice. Game play at 12:30

[Yannir.4132]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

Dh works fine in wvw, just takes a little practice. Game play at 12:30

This is not about WvW.

Yes Guardians, nobody cares about your WvW roaming videos.

[alain.1659]

That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

I hope anet gives guardians something good.

[Brokensunday.4098]

@"alain.1659" said:That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

I hope anet gives guardians something good.

shout's, signets and caserations are almost untouched they are pretty much 2012 gw2, for dh traps are lackluster and bow need a buff and f3 should last longer baseline.... and the problems go on an on on dh and core guard.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@"alain.1659" said:That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

I hope anet gives guardians something good.

It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

[LetoII.3782]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@"alain.1659" said:That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

I hope anet gives guardians something good.

It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

And saying a build is only good with 50 people standing behind you is saying the build is garbo but all the support makes for some passable clips.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@"alain.1659" said:That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

I hope anet gives guardians something good.

It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

And saying a build is only good with 50 people standing behind you is saying the build is garbo but all the support makes for some passable clips.

It's good against large groups because of how permeating wrath works.

I think you'll find it hard to roam with any zerg based build or zerg with a roaming build. If that's not something you understand I think you'll have trouble succeeding at either man =/

[alain.1659]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@"alain.1659" said:That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

I hope anet gives guardians something good.

It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

Sorry, that is my mistake. As the topic was mainly on the power of dh and guard itself I did not think that you would show a zerg build. It looks like a good zerg build but many builds can work wonders in a coordinated group, yet this seems fun to play.

But my main issue is the build variety and power of guardian and dh in general. And that makes me think about spvp or roaming issues.

[HawkXtream.1538]

@Zephoid.4263 said:While i can agree with the 50%-25% crit change for rental, give guard SOMETHING back.

Guard's shouts are straight garbage. they don't give many boons and the duration are god awful. Most haven't seen a change since release and they weren't even competitive back then.Spirit weapons are still bad. Mid cast time and delay for effect isn't a viable combination.Medis were go-to for a long time, but they have been nerfed a few times and have been power crept pretty hard.Consecrations are a joke. Not even remotely competitive in pvp, only wall is ever used in any game mode.

You had very limited build options for any form of power guard and they received 3 separate nerfs (smite conditions, glacial heart, RI) without any meaningful buffs.

Hammer guard saw repeated nerfs back to back on a build that wasn't competitive in any format. The cast time on every effect hammer has are incredibly long and do very middling damage/effects.GS guard was low-mid plat competitive when mirages were popular, but the RI crit nerf without any compensating buffs killed that. Previously gs guard lost to holos, sb, or revs, now they get dominated by them.DH hasn't been competitive since the initial round of heavy handed nerfs after HoT release.

I'd love to see something done for power guards, but i really don't have confidence that Anet has a good grasp on what is wrong. I'm betting on some concentration cd buffs or something meaningless like that. Guard's problems have been apparent since release and haven't been solved, so why now?

Shout is ok, more useful in pve with Pure of Voice trait. But as more and more classes get access to conditions cleansed, it is no longer preferred. Spirit weapons AOE targetting now make it better except shield is sometime bugged. Medis only useful in pvp, in pve is totally useless except pudging flame for condi damage. Consecrations some are useful such as Sanctuary very good in pvp bunker. Pudging flame is good for burning build. Hallowed Ground is wtf? never liiked it.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

The latest stealth nerf to lesser smite condition from the June 25th patch only vindicates OP lmao

just delete core guard and dh already. we know you want to

[crazyhusky.2985]

@"Saharo Gravewind.5120" said:Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

It is clear that they DON'T want to us to use Dragonhunter anymore. (or Power guardian)They aren't going to touch dragonhunter any time soon. its been about 3 years since we had any major changes to it.I've had the same build and armour for gods knows how long. The only difference is i use focus now.

All other Elite specs from Heart of thorns within the start of the year have had either a few tweaks, Rework to their mechenics or a few traits or a skill replaced.Back in april the "HoT specs balance update" Daredevil, Reaper, Druid and Bezerker all got tweaks and reworks to them, despite the update being about HoT specs Dragohnter was not even mentioned in this update, they focused more firebrand and hammer... again.Scrapper and Tempest got theirs reworks and tweaks in the Feburary balance patch.Herald got theirs a while back also has had recent tweaks and Chrono have a lot of changes recently too, Many nerfs but some small buffs too.

In the June 25th they stealth nerfed the trait "Smiter's Boon" making Lesser smite condition come AFTER the healing skill. The whole point of that trait that was to get some condi cleanse BEFORE your heal, since some conditions like poison reduce the effect of healing. Since Power Guardian uses it for pvp, they've nerfed it.Before that recent nerf, it was the RI nerf. Having RI give 50% crit helped A LOT since it meant Power guardians COULD use armour of with Vitality or toughness to help with surviability because they didn't have to worry about precision so much. Having more than 15K HP and doing damage was nice. It is a little OP side HOWEVER when you're against classes that can instantly burst you down in an instant due to having abysmally low HP, then in my eyes, to be fair having RI give that amount of crit was justified. maybe they should have lowered it to 35% not 25%.

In the past 3 years we've asked them to give simple things on Dragonhunter.

• Having longbow 3 have knockback on it by default
• Giving Wings of revolve a dodge/evade on it so we can land the move, Since it is literally jumping the air as if it's dodging an attack. (guardian is only class that doesn't have any dodges/evades on its skills but yet Ranger literally has 12 of them)
• Remove the having to stand still while you charge "True shot" (longbow 2) since it's very easy to read, intrupt and dodge it.
• Give Dragonhunter traitline more retaliation or even quickness to help with the slow speed
• Allowing Dragonhunter to trigger its own traps with a Function key (kinda like gyros for scrapper) so we can use our traps on stationary bosses and objects like siege.That's just the basic stuff.

Over a year ago they said there were going back redoing or tweaking ALL of guardian's weapons.And they did.... ALL except the longbow. You know when your elite spec is in a bad place when they rework the underwater weapons and not touch your elite spec's weapon.Within the last year all that dragonhunter has had done to it is.... insert drum roll "True shot's range was increased to 1500 from 1200" but they left the other 4 skills of the longbow at 1200 range. why? this change is beyond questionable. They're just randomly picking one thing about dragonhunter out of hat every 8-9 months and then tweaking it ever so slightly, to be honest it's not enough, Dragonhunter feels weak and slow now compare to other elite specs. it needs a lot of fixing and reworking.

Given their track record of how long they took for tempest and scrapper to get reworked they won't touch dragonhunter again.At this point, all you can say is "Do they want all guardians be to firebrands?" Because at this rate it feels like it.When you go out of your way and stealth nerf a cruial trait like "Smiter's Boon" for pvp power guard/DH that does say something. Top on RI nerf and the 3 year gap of major updates to dragonhunter.

Dragonhunter SHOULD be the offensive elite for gaurdian like how Soulbeast is the offensive elite for ranger while Druid is the support one, but yet Firebrand out DPS's Dragonhunter now and Firebrand can do support and it can bunker better than Dragonhunter. They're basically giving us no reason to use Dragonhunter.