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Thoughts on current viable Condition Builds for Small Scale / Large Scale?


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I think the general sentiment is that Power Builds are performing better for Small Scale / Large Scale due to a variety of reasons like increased ease of access to condition cleanses/conversion etc.

From a build diversity pov, it is a little sad that condition builds seem to be losing ground and becoming less favored.Sometimes I wish both power and condition builds across all classes/elites could be similarly effective at the same time.

For example, I've not encountered a condi warrior for a long time ?

But are there still viable Condition Builds that can work well in a Small Scale / Large Scale setting?Any class/elite.

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I once heard somebody remark that the only reason why Power Herald is OP now is because it is weak to condi builds, and all of the condi builds were nerfed.

I only have so much experience in WvW. But, from a tactical side, I could never bring myself to bring a condi build into it. Keep in mind, I have a condi set on every single toon I own.

Engineer: Most of the damage comes from pulsing fire fields, which players won't stand in. P/P is a terrible weaponset, and all of the damage comes from the utilities. This means that I don't really have the space for defensive utilities. So, the PVP/WVW builds end up being a mixed compromise of offensive and defensive skills. This makes condi engi both harder to play and worse off than any power build, which doesn't have to make the compromise.

Thief: Similar to the engineer, the condi thief sacrifices a lot of their defensive utilities for offenses. The most you can hope to do is play P/D like a squishy power thief, except instead of killing enemies outright you have to slowly plink away at their health. Condi thieves lack any sort of strong potency, and often times you'll see your 1v1s turn into 2v1s and 3v1s as other players come running by to hurt you. They also lack any meaningful group support.

Ranger: I don't play ranger.

Revenant: I actually brought a condi build into WvW for awhile. Pre-nerf, though. Condi rev's have one real good gimmick, which is Unyielding Anguish. If you can catch players in two or three of those, they melt like butter in Arizona. This makes the condi rev O.K. in duels and small scale. The problem, however, is the lack of good ranged and large scale options. Condi rev plays like a weaker hammer rev in a zerg, and the shortbow is inconsistent and terrible for a weapon. The mace has awkward offensive range, and I often found myself just using mace 3 in a zerg. It's not really enough to justify the presence of the class, and having a ranged weapon weakness is pretty damning in wide open spaces.

Warrior: Still trying to figure out warrior.

Guardian: This one's hard to get a read on. Mostly because... you don't really see condi guards anywhere. In PVP/WvW I mean. At most, I've found some tricky, personalized builds, but no real strong general trends. It's hard to comment on something that doesn't exist. However, there are several obvious weaknesses. It has a lack of ranged options, the single burn is easily cleansed, and the low health makes it weak to counter pressure.

Elementalist: Much like the engineer, this class relies on enemies staying in pulsing fire fields to do maximum damage. Unlike engineer, however, it doesn't sacrifice utilities for damage. There aren't many. Ele's suffer immensely from counter pressure, and a condi build won't work on a class that can't handle counter pressure. Also, by focusing solely on burn, they're easily cleansed. I'm not well versed in Condi Ele, but I can't imagine that it has a fast application rate, either.

Mesmer: This one used to be the best dueling class in the game. However, the nerf hammer has been used liberally, and now the Mirage has no teeth left. It is still a decent dueling and small engagements class, but it is nowhere near the powerhouse it used to be. All of its skills were good, but now they just don't do enough damage anymore.

Necromancer: This is the only condi build that you'll regularly see in WvW. Staff is still annoying, corruption is still annoying, desert shroud is still annoying, and those condi bombs can be fierce. However, again, the Scourge keeps getting itself nerfed over and over again. Power Scourge might be doing better now, while bringing the exact same utilities that condi scourge does. Scourges are good in large scale fights, but in smaller scale they're easily focused down.

Overall, your best bets for condi builds are Scourges, Mirages, and Condi Herald. They're not necessarily the best options, but they should still function.

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Condi warrior has never been particularly viable because power warrior has been that much better.

But here is the simple truth of condi vs power - condi scales worse the more targets you engage, while power scales better the more targets you engage.

This isnt necessarily a bad thing for all encounters, it just means the curve for power is simply... better. But the curve is so much more complicated than simply saying power or condi.

Some of the "op" classes like the infamous condi mirages these forums moaned about on a daily basis are perfect examples of this. Very powerfull duelists true, but notoriously bad at fighting outmanned and completely ineffective against condi cleanse, which only exponentially increase in larger groups.

I do not think there is some "fairness factor" that should dictate that power/condi should be viable in every situation for every class and build. Different builds, different classes, different purposes. Good players weigh up disadvantages on all sides best they can.

In terms of how they compare face to face today... I've seen viable smallscalers of nearly all types. Power and condi in smallscale is pretty balanced IMO - frontload on either thing and die to the other.

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I play condi Rev fairly often and while you can still win fights, I haven't really enjoyed it in groups ever since the Scrapper rework and the rise the Antitoxin build. That build completely gutted my desire to play it against comped teams. Condi Rev has a fair diversity of condition application if built for it, and its consistent and high potential for boon rip gives it a nice niche, but that role is still greatly eclipsed by Necro's/Scourge's corrupts. I find it to have a balanced kit with a nice dose of counterplay, but that isn't really the name of the game anymore. You can completely stomp enemies that aren't built for condi clear (which is more common now as power is predominant), but anybody who actually tries to countercomp you or who just runs high cleanse in general will tear through you quite easily. Full trailblazer is an option for any condi build but I find that to be a bad representation of the build's state of balance because it is an extremely imbalanced stat spread and can make any condi build feel more viable than it is at its core. If I had to rate its effectiveness amongst classes, I'd probably place it third, below both Mesmer and Necro.

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I like to think condi fell out of favor due to a build up of changes over the years, particularly the nerf to 40% duration foods, killing off trapper thief, many changes to Confusion regarding "reweighted DoT to focus more on dmg on skill use", so many objectives/mechanics apply reveal now barely any PU condi mesmer stealth camping stuff, resistance boon and numerous new cleanses via "omg blast them light fields boiz", runes (anti toxin), sigils (buffed cleansing sigil) + skills removing more than one condi (ammo skills in particular), slight nerfs for guards - less burn on block kinda stuff (worked on siege funnily enough), numerous Epidemic tweaks, the shift from trailblazer to mara/zerk etc. There's probably more but those are the ones that stood out to me that caused a decline in condi builds in favor of burst or be bursted... also let's not forget with every xpac is more powercreep anyway.

Ones that work for me (small scale) albeit one trick pony so focus someone else next time:

  • Dire Firebrand - 100% burn duration via traits/runes, can force mirages/thieves to pull off if you time things right but not enough to force a down vs someone who actually knows what they're doing. Very one trick pony.
  • Quad dagger evade spam Daredevil - Reigned big time pre PoF but teetered off. Still works. Much evade spam applying bleeds + sustains with evades. Stomps noobs + below average players who don't fully understand the end of the evade frame on death blossom. Utterly useless against any high cleanse/sustain targets like tempest.
  • S/D Venomshare Daredevil - Mostly for PvP but works in WvW at times. I'm not even kidding when I say you can dish out 40+ poison stacks or more by combo'ing venoms with thieves guild. The most amusing kills come from necros, eles & guards because they're supposed to have decent cleanse capabilities.
  • Staff Ele/Weaver - a guildy made this build for the lulz. Works surprisingly well. Many burns. We used it on mounted players and by the time they dropped off their mounts many were already in downed state or very well near it not realizing how many burn stacks they had on them. By far the funniest build to play. So many people expect power ele...

You could still try venomshare thief for large scale and pray fools don't know how to apply resistance/cleanse... idk good luck.

That's about it, I wanted to put in condi rev because I've met some good ones but outside of that nothing really stands out other than the occasional trap ranger or typical condi mirage.

While I respect your opinion regarding feeling sad that there's not more viable condi builds, many of the complaints came from exactly those kinda builds. IMHO I'd much rather be bursted 100-0 from power than fiddling around trying to manage cleanses while attempting to hit the pinata dancing around me applying more.

You make a fair point on condi warrior. I tried so many times to make that work, even made a troll build because I knew it was pointless to try the real deal. Imagine making a build focused entirely on applying as much immobilize as possible... man I miss that build. Those were funny times. 9+ second immobilize from throw bolas? Cripple = immobilize. It was such a crazy build. It was around HoT and the nerf to 40% duration foods. It will always have a place in my heart... oh well.

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I think the general sentiment is that Power Builds are performing better for Small Scale / Large Scale due to a variety of reasons like increased ease of access to condition cleanses/conversion etc.

From a build diversity pov, it is a little sad that condition builds seem to be losing ground and becoming less favored.Sometimes I wish both power and condition builds across all classes/elites could be similarly effective at the same time.

For example, I've not encountered a condi warrior for a long time ?

But are there still viable Condition Builds that can work well in a Small Scale / Large Scale setting?Any class/elite.

You can pm me ingame, will gladly recommend something extremely hard to kill

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@Zephyra.4709 said:You make a fair point on condi warrior. I tried so many times to make that work, even made a troll build because I knew it was pointless to try the real deal. Imagine making a build focused entirely on applying as much immobilize as possible... man I miss that build. Those were funny times. 9+ second immobilize from throw bolas? Cripple = immobilize. It was such a crazy build. It was around HoT and the nerf to 40% duration foods. It will always have a place in my heart... oh well.Yeah that's a totally different beast than the 9+ seconds of stun builds people run now. I think. Maybe?

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When I'm on support classes I've always had fun dabbling in condi hybrids to spice things up a bit. Even if Dawdler is right in talking about scalability I've found that as you do not rely on the conditions you dish out on the side (and if you pick your moments) you can still find plenty of situations where it can be very useful. Obviously, if you don gear like Settler you should keep your primary support gear (Minstrel, or w/e) in your bags for when you or your group needs it. However, support-hybrid works on most support classes (FB, Engi, Mesm, Ele) and as most of them can condi bomb with either burst condition types (burn) or frontloaded stacks - you can add in suprises even in larger fights as well as if you get caught out by gankers or focus-type classes.

The best thing about it is that it mostly affects you, losing personal survivability, so your group-utility remains largely unaffected beyond you dropping and being unable to support :p . Still, you go from super tanky to tanky, you're never squishy. Just be decent on your class and it works. Adapt when needed.

Those kind of builds can also be pretty useful in smaller scale roaming parties as well (3-5).

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Zephyra.4709 said:You make a fair point on condi warrior. I tried so many times to make that work, even made a troll build because I knew it was pointless to try the real deal. Imagine making a build focused entirely on applying as much immobilize as possible... man I miss that build. Those were funny times. 9+ second immobilize from throw bolas? Cripple = immobilize. It was such a crazy build. It was around HoT and the nerf to 40% duration foods. It will always have a place in my heart... oh well.Yeah that's a totally different beast than the 9+ seconds of stun builds people run now. I think. Maybe?

Probably, haha. I've always been drawn to gimmick builds; rather have fun playing something that's obviously wood tier you can't help but laugh when people actually die to these wack builds.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:But here is the simple truth of condi vs power - condi scales worse the more targets you engage, while power scales better the more targets you engage.

This isnt necessarily a bad thing for all encounters, it just means the curve for power is simply... better. But the curve is so much more complicated than simply saying power or condi.

However condi is so dangerous that if you opt to not trait for condition cleanse, that even a messily stack of a few bleeds can down you if you don’t cleanse it.

This is why even though we exist in a power meta, my build is anti condi to the maximum. And of course because people are forced to spec anti condition in almost every build, people stop playing condi. It’s a war of attrition simply because conditions are too powerful.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:But here is the simple truth of condi vs power - condi scales worse the more targets you engage, while power scales better the more targets you engage.

This isnt necessarily a
bad
thing for all encounters, it just means the curve for power is simply... better. But the curve is so much more complicated than simply saying power or condi.

However condi is so dangerous that if you opt to not trait for condition cleanse, that even a messily stack of a few bleeds can down you if you don’t cleanse it.

This is why even though we exist in a power meta, my build is anti condi to the maximum. And of course because people are forced to spec anti condition in almost every build, people stop playing condi. It’s a war of attrition simply because conditions are too powerful.

And when people stop playing condi, less people spec cleanse because they think "hey I could do more damage instead!".

And around we go.

Of course there will always be good cleanse builds one meet. Thats the very point of builds. You cant spec everything. But if you can face 5 out of 10 foes you meet, hey thats average. If you can face 7 out of 10, thats pretty decent given that you can probably disengage from the rest anyway. And if you should only be able to face 9 out 10 because that 10th is "anti condi to the maximum"... well I'd argue thats pretty much as good as it gets.

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