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LI > LD Removal - Updates?


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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Untrue, the maximum amount of LD available when LD were introduced was 172 (hence the maximum exchange). The current maximum is now 454, do the math.

I told you that we have been getting LI instead of LD for more time. And that is true. I will do the math for you since you don't believe it.

168LI/4=42 weeks doing w5. (If people cleared on monday it would be 43 weeks with172LI, if they waited until the patch then only 42 weeks with 168LI and the exchange was only for 168LI).

(454-168)=286 LD have been farmed

286-6=280 LD( 6 were from w7 in this 2 weeks)

280LD/7=40 weeks ( farming w5 and w6 and people getting LD).

Therefore, 42 or 43 weeks farming and getting only LI vs 40 weeks of farming and getting LD.

Regarding your other points, I think I have explained myself well enough. So if you still don't understand where is the problem, then I think I can't help you and nothing will make you understand my point of view.

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@Robles.7458 said:

Untrue, the maximum amount of LD available when LD were introduced was 172 (hence the maximum exchange). The current maximum is now 454, do the math.

I told you that we have been getting LI instead of LD for more time. And that is true. I will do the math for you since you don't believe it.

168LI/4=42 weeks doing w5. (If people cleared on monday it would be 43 weeks with172LI, if they waited until the patch then only 42 weeks with 168LI and the exchange was only for 168LI).

(454-168)=286 LD have been farmed

286-6=280 LD( 6 were from w7 in this 2 weeks)

280LD/7=40 weeks ( farming w5 and w6 and people getting LD).

Therefore, 42 or 43 weeks farming and getting only LI vs 40 weeks of farming and getting LD.

Regarding your other points, I think I have explained myself well enough. So if you still don't understand where is the problem, then I think I can't help you and nothing will make you understand my point of view.

I was going by total available LD, also your math assumes Dhuum kills from week 1. That's a very unrealistic assumption. Any person interested was more than capable to acquire the required LD via the content it was meant to be gained from.

Which brings up my point from earlier: the exchangeable amount was based on a value which 99% of the elegible player base did not even achieve, not even close. If we assume even any clears of any boss of wing 5 in the first few weeks for many player, given how Desmina is a difficult boss for many.

So once again, it is more than understandable that people are unsatisfied, but at least have the common decendy and dignity to roll back your complaining since you are directly taking advantage of a skip for this content. While making it seem as though you had actually completed the required amount of content.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

So once again, it is more than understandable that people are unsatisfied, but at least have the common decendy and dignity to roll back your complaining since you are directly taking advantage of a skip for this content. While making it seem as though you had actually completed the required amount of content.

No. If you think what I did was wrong I can only say you that we will have to agree to disagree.

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@"Cyninja.2954"

I can't fathom your opinion here. You are blaming the playerbase for an issue that Anet created. You are actually telling people that they are trying to game the system and that they have no right to be upset, which is beyond ridiculous at this point.

Let's take me for example. I raided with my guildies for wings 1-5, since raids were initially released. At some point life got busy AND I was getting a bit burned out from GW2, so I stopped raiding regularly with my static. I would still help out time to time if I was on and they needed an extra slot. So my playtime dwindled. When W6 released, I still cleared it along with W5. Just not every week. W7 I haven't done much but I have cleared the first two bosses.

Back to the conversion. I saw that Anet introduced LD and with it the conversion of LI > LD. They made it clear this was an exchange limited in quantity and not time. There was also no use for LD at the time. With that information, I was going to wait for it to have a use because I trusted what Anet said. Now going by what you said, I may not have the perfect amount because I did not clear Dhuum the first week but I do believe I cleared it in the first month. Other bosses were cleared before that. So maybe I would truly be able to convert -140? Because I didn't full clear every week but enough.

So, patch hits that lets us finish Coalescence and suddenly I find the exchange is removed, a reverse exchange has been put up...and neither made it into the patch notes. Only after posts hit reddit and the forums did Anet pipe up. And their response is pretty much a lie.

You are going to tell me in a patch that releases a legendary that finally requires use of LD, you go ahead and remove the conversion that you stated would never get removed. You add in a reverse conversion because there really is no use for LD other than that ring. You forget to tell the playerbase about it beforehand, you forget to put it in the patch notes, and you forget to say anything after the patch and you state, "it wasn't intentional to not communicate?". I'm sorry how many lies are they going to double down on? They clearly didn't want players to have the ring on day 1 and so they removed it to extend the content by an arbitrary X amount of time. But the thing is this ONLY punishes the players that trusted Anet. Those that didn't listen to them and converted right away, didn't lose out...only those that once again listened to Anet.

And that is the issue right there. Anet set expectations based on information they gave, they patched in LD, an item that literally only has use for one item that players have been waiting for, they gave an exchange for this item because it didn't make the original release date they wanted, they then ripped that away without thought or word.

And their response after the fact just says, at a planned future release. That could literally be a year from now. Their entire handling of this situation is terrible, and they've made similar mistakes before yet they don't seem to learn. And why you defend them is beyond me. This sets a terrible precedent.

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@Roquen.5406 said:@Cyninja.2954

I can't fathom your opinion here. You are blaming the playerbase for an issue that Anet created. You are actually telling people that they are trying to game the system and that they have no right to be upset, which is beyond ridiculous at this point.

I am not blaming any one for being upset. I am annoyed by the blantant over exageration present, especially from player who did not do the 150 LD boss kills who just want to bypass the system when the ring is clearly a reward for wing 5-7. No one even cares about players who are not elegible for the exchange (which is imo way to generous with only requiring 1 kill pre implementation, which was even communicated making sure as many people as possible would get it). Then again, I found the total amount for conversion allowed to be way to high in the first place (or allowing for the exchange at all back when it was introduced).

@Roquen.5406 said:Let's take me for example. I raided with my guildies for wings 1-5, since raids were initially released. At some point life got busy AND I was getting a bit burned out from GW2, so I stopped raiding regularly with my static. I would still help out time to time if I was on and they needed an extra slot. So my playtime dwindled. When W6 released, I still cleared it along with W5. Just not every week. W7 I haven't done much but I have cleared the first two bosses.

Since wing 6 was introduced, a total of 280 LD were available from wing 5+6 over 40 weeks. Even if you occasionally did raids, you would be close to 100 LD from just doing the easy fights or raiding every 2-3 weeks. What you are essentially saying is: you did a lot of wing 5 before wing 6 was added. You did wing 6 for the clears and maybe the achievements and you cleared the first 2 bosses in wing 7, which hardcore raiders had full cleared in 6 hours.

Fair enough, now how many players do you think are actually in the same boat? My guess is way less than the way bigger group which: does w1-4 full clears weekly (which are beyond farm easy by now), did 1-2 wing 5+6 clears and now did wing 7. Which again is fine, but at least then have the common courtesy to let Arenanet sort this out because all of these players get to skip this content due to a conversion which allows for this. That's not even getting into people who bought the difficult kills from raid sellers not even have to master the content.

@Roquen.5406 said:Back to the conversion. I saw that Anet introduced LD and with it the conversion of LI > LD. They made it clear this was an exchange limited in quantity and not time. There was also no use for LD at the time. With that information, I was going to wait for it to have a use because I trusted what Anet said. Now going by what you said, I may not have the perfect amount because I did not clear Dhuum the first week but I do believe I cleared it in the first month. Other bosses were cleared before that. So maybe I would truly be able to convert -140? Because I didn't full clear every week but enough.

So, patch hits that lets us finish Coalescence and suddenly I find the exchange is removed, a reverse exchange has been put up...and neither made it into the patch notes. Only after posts hit reddit and the forums did Anet pipe up. And their response is pretty much a lie.

Yes, and I did mention that you are among the only group of players who I believe get to complain (similar to myself, though I did keep raiding and never needed the exchange). Not everyone complaining here did their "share" of wing 5 or 6 boss kills. Which is fine, after all the exchange existed (and directly reduced the incentive to do wings 5+6, after all everyone could just exchange LI from wings 1-4 which were significantly easier and more farmed). To then come in and complain how some people do is what annoys me.

@Roquen.5406 said:You are going to tell me in a patch that releases a legendary that finally requires use of LD, you go ahead and remove the conversion that you stated would never get removed.

Yes, and I have repeatedly said I disagree with this and my disagreeing with this situation actually is more grave than my distaste for people acquiring LI from wing 1-4 and skipping wing 5-7 content. I still don't have to agree with the sense of entitlement some have shown here and blant disrespect for the developers.

@Roquen.5406 said:You add in a reverse conversion because there really is no use for LD other than that ring.

Which is a way greater issue since it signals that raids might be coming to an end reward wise and there might be no actual use for LD after getting the ring. All of which I find way more concerning as raider or from a game health perspective than some random people complaining about some loot they can't get right away.

@Roquen.5406 said:You forget to tell the playerbase about it beforehand, you forget to put it in the patch notes, and you forget to say anything after the patch and you state, "it wasn't intentional to not communicate?". I'm sorry how many lies are they going to double down on? They clearly didn't want players to have the ring on day 1 and so they removed it to extend the content by an arbitrary X amount of time. But the thing is this ONLY punishes the players that trusted Anet. Those that didn't listen to them and converted right away, didn't lose out...only those that once again listened to Anet.

and those that actually did the content after LDs were introduced don't even care. Personally I would never have allowed the exchange and left it at: wing 5 gave LI. Be happy about that, now it gives LD. Then again that's just me and I would not use my personal approach to argue for such a solution, what was promised should be honored.

@Roquen.5406 said:And that is the issue right there. Anet set expectations based on information they gave, they patched in LD, an item that literally only has use for one item that players have been waiting for, they gave an exchange for this item because it didn't make the original release date they wanted, they then ripped that away without thought or word.

And their response after the fact just says, at a planned future release. That could literally be a year from now. Their entire handling of this situation is terrible, and they've made similar mistakes before yet they don't seem to learn. And why you defend them is beyond me. This sets a terrible precedent.

I fully agree that currently LD and LI make no sense. Might have just left it with LI to begin with when allowing an exchange which converts more than the required LD for 1 ring.

As to their communication on the issue, again for the bazillionth time: yes I disagree with it. Still doesn't give some people the right to approach this issue verbaly the way they did imo.

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@Talindra.4958 said:It shouldn't come back permanently. Because ppl can just kill w567 boss once (or buy) and then farm w1to4 or escort weekly to collect LD but again why not??? :)Remember, that the exchange is valid only for people that did at least one w5 boss before it was first put in.So, what exactly a permanent exchange changes? All it does is ensure noone that qualifed misses the exchange time (which, i'm sure, Anet would like to be extremely limited).

Is there a functional difference between someone that did all w5-7 bosses once and then exchanged LIs (farmed in w4) for LDs long ago, and one that did the same, but, trusting Anet, waited with the exchange? I mean, beyond the fact that the second player apparently trusted Anet more? Because if there is one, i don't see it.So, the only thing removing exchange does is punishing that only point of difference - trust in Anet's promises.

Basically, playes are now being penalized for nothing more than trusting Anet - which is a really dubious design choice, as i see it.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Is there a functional difference between someone that did all w5-7 bosses once and then exchanged LIs (farmed in w4) for LDs long ago, and one that did the same, but, trusting Anet, waited with the exchange? I mean, beyond the fact that the second player apparently trusted Anet more? Because if there is one, i don't see it.So, the only thing removing exchange does is punishing that only point of difference - trust in Anet's promises.

Basically, playes are now being penalized for nothing more than trusting Anet - which is a really dubious design choice, as i see it.

The main functional difference is that the players who exchanged their LI lost the ability to use those LI for armor giving up some choice and rewards for potential future use of then still useless LD. This might not seem like a lot to people in hindsight, but exchanging useful LI for useless LD at the time was quit unappealing and people who did so exchanged risk for potential future value. If it had been more appealing, everyone would have exchanged their LI. This is further supported by the argument that people wanted to wait and see how many LD are actually needed, signaling that they would exchange the amount required and rather keep their remaining kill rewards in form of LI (likely valuing armor over trinkets, even more so now that the ludicrous pricing of legendary trinkets is known).

@Astralporing.1957 said:Basically, playes are now being penalized for nothing more than trusting Anet - which is a really dubious design choice, as i see it.

True, and this is not okay. The faster this issue gets resolved the better, though given how some people are bound to "miss" a temporary exchange opportunity, I'm quite sure we will see complaints about this exchange getting removed for a long time.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Basically, playes are now being penalized for nothing more than
trusting Anet
- which is a really dubious design choice, as i see it.

True, and this is not okay. The faster this issue gets resolved the better, though given how some people are bound to "miss" a temporary exchange opportunity, I'm quite sure we will see complaints about this exchange getting removed for a long time.

Exactly. Personally, i don't really see the reason behind Anet's insistence of returning it only for a time. If not having the exchange is not important enough to go against that earlier promise, then they should reverse the removal decision, and have it back permanently. If it is important, however, then they should say so, and do not bring it back even for a second. Doing it the way they are doing it now only makes it so that people will get their exchange, but the promise will still get broken. So, basically, the worst of both worlds.And of course dragging their feet won't get them any positive PR points either.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Yes, and I did mention that you are among the only group of players who I believe get to complain (similar to myself, though I did keep raiding and never needed the exchange). Not everyone complaining here did their "share" of wing 5 or 6 boss kills. Which is fine, after all the exchange existed (and directly reduced the incentive to do wings 5+6, after all everyone could just exchange LI from wings 1-4 which were significantly easier and more farmed). To then come in and complain how some people do is what annoys me.Which is a way greater issue since it signals that raids might be coming to an end reward wise and there might be no actual use for LD after getting the ring. All of which I find way more concerning as raider or from a game health perspective than some random people complaining about some loot they can't get right away.

I get your point and if the game - or rather: the game-mode - would be in a better state, I'd probably also agree with you. As it is though, I'd say that the main reason doing W5-W7 is heavily disincentivized is the community itself. There are exceptions of course, but in general, I'd say that the GW2-community is rather toxic when it comes to game-modes in which performance does matter (especially raids and fractals) - one of the main-reasons being that the game is utterly unsocial. The game being rather unsocial, all the toxicity (I mean... Seriously... Some parts of the raiding community have the mindset that people, who can't "monday-clear" (for whatever reasons), are trash.) and stuff like KP-systems (be it raids or fractal-CMs) are killing the content more than any reward-problem ever could. I'd also disagree with your sentiment that W1-W4 are an easymode-farm as that heavily depends on the environment in which you're raiding.

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@Raizel.8175 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Yes, and I did mention that you are among the only group of players who I believe get to complain (similar to myself, though I did keep raiding and never needed the exchange). Not everyone complaining here did their "share" of wing 5 or 6 boss kills. Which is fine, after all the exchange existed (and directly reduced the incentive to do wings 5+6, after all everyone could just exchange LI from wings 1-4 which were significantly easier and more farmed). To then come in and complain how some people do is what annoys me.Which is a way greater issue since it signals that raids might be coming to an end reward wise and there might be no actual use for LD after getting the ring. All of which I find way more concerning as raider or from a game health perspective than some random people complaining about some loot they can't get right away.

I get your point and if the game - or rather: the game-mode - would be in a better state, I'd probably also agree with you. As it is though, I'd say that the main reason doing W5-W7 is heavily disincentivized is the community itself.

It's a combination of many factors. Difficulty of wings 5-7 compared to Wings 1-4 is another factor. Years of no use for LDs another. Arenanet removing the exchange of LI into LD while at the same time adding LD to LI conversion shows they have realised the issue of incentive to do wings 5-7 and the increased problem of more raid content for more casual raiders.

Players unfortunately only care about their own personal loot and reward though (and who can blame them). Most could care less how the game mode does once they have their loot and reward that they want.

@Raizel.8175 said:There are exceptions of course, but in general, I'd say that the GW2-community is rather toxic when it comes to game-modes in which performance does matter (especially raids and fractals) - one of the main-reasons being that the game is utterly unsocial.

I do not agree that GW2 is any more toxic than any other game when it comes to performance. This has been covered in the past though. Suffice to say, people often compare farm content in other games (where people outscale the content vastly) with challenging content in GW2.

@Raizel.8175 said:The game being rather unsocial, all the toxicity (I mean... Seriously... Some parts of the raiding community have the mindset that people, who can't "monday-clear" (for whatever reasons), are trash.) and stuff like KP-systems (be it raids or fractal-CMs) are killing the content more than any reward-problem ever could.

I have never heard any one say people who do not full clear mondays are worse players (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I have never experienced it). There is raid guilds who have their clear days setup on tuesdays or thursdays or other days. The greatest effect mondays have is on PUG raiding since the amount of available players is the highest. Then again, I do not judge intended challenging group content to be measured how groups of random strangers perform in it, but again, this has been discussed before.

@Raizel.8175 said:I'd also disagree with your sentiment that W1-W4 are an easymode-farm as that heavily depends on the environment in which you're raiding.

Wing 1-4 is objectively easier in every regard to wings 5-7. Be it due to longer availability, mechanics which have become outdated and can be circumvented with new abilities (barrier says high) or strait up power creep, clear rates, etc.

There is absolutely no argument that Wing 1-4 is easier than 5-7. My referance to wing 1-4 being easier is in context to comparing it to Wing 5-7.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/961363/#Comment_961363

Okay, seems the exchange will be brought back permanently after all, so we can hopefully lay the topic to rest.

The question is not if but when...they gave the same exact vague wording, "at a future planned build". You don't have to agree with me but I would like to know a general ballpark. That could be tomorrow, a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year...?

I can't imagine the lines of code that already exist are that complicated to implement back in, so the vagueness is strange to me.

For me it goes back to communication. If they intend to make me wait some months, half a year, or a year, just let me know and then I can go on about my way.

Is it the end of the world? No, is it disappointing? Yes, it is. /shrug

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@Roquen.5406 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

Okay, seems the exchange will be brought back permanently after all, so we can hopefully lay the topic to rest.

The question is not if but when...they gave the same exact vague wording, "at a future planned build". You don't have to agree with me but I would like to know a general ballpark. That could be tomorrow, a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year...?

I can't imagine the lines of code that already exist are that complicated to implement back in, so the vagueness is strange to me.

For me it goes back to communication. If they intend to make me wait some months, half a year, or a year, just let me know and then I can go on about my way.

Is it the end of the world? No, is it disappointing? Yes, it is. /shrug

I guess they will bring it back on the next patch? After that I would start asking questions.I always prefer to blame mistake over malice.

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@yann.1946 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

Okay, seems the exchange will be brought back permanently after all, so we can hopefully lay the topic to rest.

The question is not if but when...they gave the same exact vague wording, "at a future planned build". You don't have to agree with me but I would like to know a general ballpark. That could be tomorrow, a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year...?I guess they will bring it back on the next patch? After that I would start asking questions.That's my reading as well - that they will not make a special build for this change alone, but will add it to a next build (so, today, since it's the beginning of Dragon Bash, and they are certain to do a patch for it), alongside other stuff. If it's not so, then yes, it would be a reason to pick up the topic right again.
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