Isn't Weaver locking players out of 40% of their spells for multiple seconds? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Isn't Weaver locking players out of 40% of their spells for multiple seconds?

Frye.4608Frye.4608 Member ✭✭
edited June 2, 2019 in Elementalist

I am very new to weaver, only a day or so. So I might be missing something essential here. But does the class work as follows ?

You get one spell based on the previous AND new attunement. You get two spells from the old attunement and two from the new one. And then you get a cooldown on attunement switching of at least three seconds. So basically for staff : shockwave, burning retreat, frozen ground, static field and windborne speed might be unavailable to you when you need them most. Meaning that exactly 100% of your defensive spells are picked based on your current attunement and you can't switch to them when you need them.

And this is a specialization as a reward for owning an expansion and doing work for it.

Does that about sum it up or am I missing something here?

Comments

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    Not always, not really.

    Take WvW Staff Weaver for example, you always rotate through Fire and something else for damage, this ensures that Fire is 80+% of the time is on either main-hand or off-hand, so crucial skill aren't always unavailable. Sometimes it can be a split of a second between me swapping and dying, but that's not the norm.

    Also, playing weaver for long will allow you to know when to pressure and when to go on the defense, and seeking out defense even in Fire is achievable sometimes, like combo leaping with Sword Fire #2 in a water field for healing etc. Reading the enemy is extremely crucial as a Weaver as a good player can punish you really hard for swapping too early or for swapping to the wrong element at the wrong time.

    However, it happens sometimes that I feel like I am 1s behind because of this mechanic, especially when affected by Chilled, which hits Weaver really hard as it thrives on constant swapping. The devs put in Unravel as a temporary fix for this issue, but it's not worth it 95% of the time. I also will have to agree on the dual attacks locking you out of main-hand skill #3, which affects dagger main-hand weaver a lot as it has quite great skills locked behind dual attacks, which forces you into the only solution, Unravel, but it's not worth it as said, yet you're forced to.

    It will get better by time, the predictability and combat reading, so this issue won't be much faced, but the harder the fights get, the more your swapped to attunement matters most.

    A side opinion though: Weaver as a an e-spec is highly lacking, it really needs a rework, the trait line is bad, the dual attacks are bad too and hard to land... like really hard to land, and the mechanic itself is really meh, a core ele that has a mixed bar, nothing special really... The only reason I play it is because of constant swapping every 4 or so seconds.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yeah pretty much. I tried pointing this out a while ago but it seems a bunch of ele players are in denial for some reason, I don't get why over something like this. the design is flawed imo and weaver will always underperform as a result.

    Because of the sword evades and ToF, the only saving graces of the whole weaver spec...take away sword and people should ask for a refund for PoF, outside sword buil, the weaver is not that much better than core ele...in some instances is even worst

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yeah pretty much. I tried pointing this out a while ago but it seems a bunch of ele players are in denial for some reason, I don't get why over something like this. the design is flawed imo and weaver will always underperform as a result.

    Because of the sword evades and ToF, the only saving graces of the whole weaver spec...take away sword and people should ask for a refund for PoF, outside sword buil, the weaver is not that much better than core ele...in some instances is even worst

    There's a whole thread where I argued from dust till dawn about how Weaver design should be improved. Give Weaver an F5 with unravel. Or, make dual skills an F5 so it doesn't replace core skills. Or, when dual skills are used, allow them to be replaced with core weapon 3 skills, kinda like how transmuting an aura is a secondary skill. Any of those are better than current circumstance.

    But for some reason there's a few eles who disagree, which means the devs will definitely disagree. Shame, cause at this point, Weaver only works effectively with sword, every other weapon is a disadvantage

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yeah pretty much. I tried pointing this out a while ago but it seems a bunch of ele players are in denial for some reason, I don't get why over something like this. the design is flawed imo and weaver will always underperform as a result.

    Because of the sword evades and ToF, the only saving graces of the whole weaver spec...take away sword and people should ask for a refund for PoF, outside sword buil, the weaver is not that much better than core ele...in some instances is even worst

    There's a whole thread where I argued from dust till dawn about how Weaver design should be improved. Give Weaver an F5 with unravel. Or, make dual skills an F5 so it doesn't replace core skills. Or, when dual skills are used, allow them to be replaced with core weapon 3 skills, kinda like how transmuting an aura is a secondary skill. Any of those are better than current circumstance.

    But for some reason there's a few eles who disagree, which means the devs will definitely disagree. Shame, cause at this point, Weaver only works effectively with sword, every other weapon is a disadvantage

    So, so true.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2019

    Can't disagree with this..weaver for core weapons offers barrier (that of course needs high healing power for some reason!)...stablity...and...twist of fate...

    It get's only funnier when we compere what other classes gained with new elite specs.

    Do you really belive that devs were at this forum at any point since weaver pre-realse ,,feedback post"?

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2019

    It's the design. Is it bad or not ? I'm not sure this is the design itself that sucks, but core elem and dual skills.
    Weaver is about rotation and anticipation, with low CD on attunements you should consider every elements at any instant and not "keep them for later" or camp only one ... You add all the cast times we have and it's starting to be a very complicated class to handle
    But it's true dual skills are not worth it for a majority, you just spam them because you're waiting for the next attunement.
    On staff they are trash; Pyroclastic, cast time, too slow, reflected 80% of the time in WvW. Plasma blast, too slow too. Pile driver, cast time, you can't move for >1sec, can be reflected easily. The others with water, useless. The only reasons to play weaver with staff is elements of rage, elemental polyphony and twist of fate.
    On sword : no range, cast time, you can even dodge pyrovortex or just move away. Projectiles are too slow with very bad target tracking, they are "cone melee skills" more than "mid-range". Lava skin is very nice.
    On dagger they are not that bad, but still you want the leaps or the schocking aura behind; that make unravel sooooooo mandatory.
    Scepter : except Plasma Beam I don't even remember ever using one; I don't really like scepter builds.

    Something like "if the dual skill hit a foe, it is replaced by the core skill" or just better dual skills would be great.

  • This is something I noticed awhile ago. The weaver only functions well with sword/x, and it has to do with the placement of skills.

    For every other weapon, the defensive and mobility skills are on the 3, 4, and 5 mark. But for the sword, they're on 2. This means that, if you're equipped with a sword you can always go to a dodge (water/earth) or a leap (fire/air) on command. The 3 skill is usually a DPS skill, so it doesn't matter whether you're weaving or double-attuned. But, if you're equipped with any other weapon, then you don't have access to your defenses. You have to hope that you'll get your defensive as they linger on your next atonement swap. All of the dual skills in other weapons are also DPS skills, which means you're missing out on some crucial defensive tactics.

    Fixing this problem is... not easy. Personally I just run fresh air. The quick pace of combat means I quickly attune to one element, then attune to another to get access to the 4 and 5 skills. This is how I do CC, where I quickly go Earth -> Air, and then chain air 2, dual 3, earth 4, and air 5.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    This is something I noticed awhile ago. The weaver only functions well with sword/x, and it has to do with the placement of skills.

    For every other weapon, the defensive and mobility skills are on the 3, 4, and 5 mark. But for the sword, they're on 2. This means that, if you're equipped with a sword you can always go to a dodge (water/earth) or a leap (fire/air) on command. The 3 skill is usually a DPS skill, so it doesn't matter whether you're weaving or double-attuned. But, if you're equipped with any other weapon, then you don't have access to your defenses. You have to hope that you'll get your defensive as they linger on your next atonement swap. All of the dual skills in other weapons are also DPS skills, which means you're missing out on some crucial defensive tactics.

    Fixing this problem is... not easy. Personally I just run fresh air. The quick pace of combat means I quickly attune to one element, then attune to another to get access to the 4 and 5 skills. This is how I do CC, where I quickly go Earth -> Air, and then chain air 2, dual 3, earth 4, and air 5.

    Were you not another telling people to L2P because they didn't know what they were talking about?....Now you agree with what they've been saying since weaver release.........................................................-_-...........................................

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    This is something I noticed awhile ago. The weaver only functions well with sword/x, and it has to do with the placement of skills.

    For every other weapon, the defensive and mobility skills are on the 3, 4, and 5 mark. But for the sword, they're on 2. This means that, if you're equipped with a sword you can always go to a dodge (water/earth) or a leap (fire/air) on command. The 3 skill is usually a DPS skill, so it doesn't matter whether you're weaving or double-attuned. But, if you're equipped with any other weapon, then you don't have access to your defenses. You have to hope that you'll get your defensive as they linger on your next atonement swap. All of the dual skills in other weapons are also DPS skills, which means you're missing out on some crucial defensive tactics.

    Fixing this problem is... not easy. Personally I just run fresh air. The quick pace of combat means I quickly attune to one element, then attune to another to get access to the 4 and 5 skills. This is how I do CC, where I quickly go Earth -> Air, and then chain air 2, dual 3, earth 4, and air 5.

    Were you not another telling people to L2P because they didn't know what they were talking about?....Now you agree with what they've been saying since weaver release.........................................................-_-...........................................

    No I wasn't.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • If you play sword/dagger (wvw) you have to find some level of soft sustain, 2-3 breaking out of stun or just applicable stability, 2-3 condi clears per 10 second interval. A decent level of sustain of regen and protect rotations. And prey to god your opponent is not a runner that can either spam high one hit burst damage range or on point and can out heal you in quick burst. I mean :) go fig. Also that he has too also be lower than you in skill level and have no experince in playing ele or reading them.

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Think of weaver as the duel skills are the main skill for the class and the old 3 core skills are the off skills. There are problem with weaver for sure even there duel skills have problems that needs to be fixed but the temp. lock out of the core 3 skills for weapons is a good way to balance elite spec. I wish they would do this with more of the elite spec. and not just add in more power creep with out any draw backs at all. Most elite spec. are nothing more then stronger version of that same class sadly.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This s something that ArenaNet mentioned as a downside of Weaver as soon as they showcased it - one of the tradeoffs for the Weaver's greater range of skills available and ability to have skills of two attunements available simultaneously is that it can take them a little longer to access the 3-5 skills they want and can't necessarily be as reactive as a core elementalist. Instead, Weavers need to be thinking a few seconds ahead of what skills they may need in a few seconds' time as well as what they need now.

    So your observation seems to be an 'acting as intended'. Keep in mind that the elite specialisations are supposed to be horizontal rather than vertical progression: what you get from buying the expansion and training the specialisation is not supposed to be a straight power boost but simply a matter of more options being available. Of course, they often get the balance wrong and something comes out the gate that's more powerful than the previous options available for that profession, but that's not supposed to be the intent. If core elementalist or tempest works better for you, there's nothing wrong with that.

    With regard to the sword having defensive skills (which are therefore immediately available to weavers) - I don't think this is intended to address a problem with weavers specifically so much as sword being intended to be a weapon with a lot of sustain (keeping in mind that you also maintain the sustain coming from offhand dagger or focus) to make up for being a build with low base armour, low base health, and no option to weaponswap out of melee (unless you fall back on conjures, and in my experience, that doesn't work too well). Sword damage output on Weaver seems to be comparable to the damage output on other weapons, so what you get from giving up your range isn't damage but the defensive skills that allow you to survive at close range.

  • LolLookAtMyAP.8394LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    This s something that ArenaNet mentioned as a downside of Weaver as soon as they showcased it - one of the tradeoffs for the Weaver's greater range of skills available and ability to have skills of two attunements available simultaneously is that it can take them a little longer to access the 3-5 skills they want and can't necessarily be as reactive as a core elementalist. Instead, Weavers need to be thinking a few seconds ahead of what skills they may need in a few seconds' time as well as what they need now.

    So your observation seems to be an 'acting as intended'. Keep in mind that the elite specialisations are supposed to be horizontal rather than vertical progression: what you get from buying the expansion and training the specialisation is not supposed to be a straight power boost but simply a matter of more options being available. Of course, they often get the balance wrong and something comes out the gate that's more powerful than the previous options available for that profession, but that's not supposed to be the intent. If core elementalist or tempest works better for you, there's nothing wrong with that.

    With regard to the sword having defensive skills (which are therefore immediately available to weavers) - I don't think this is intended to address a problem with weavers specifically so much as sword being intended to be a weapon with a lot of sustain (keeping in mind that you also maintain the sustain coming from offhand dagger or focus) to make up for being a build with low base armour, low base health, and no option to weaponswap out of melee (unless you fall back on conjures, and in my experience, that doesn't work too well). Sword damage output on Weaver seems to be comparable to the damage output on other weapons, so what you get from giving up your range isn't damage but the defensive skills that allow you to survive at close range.

    Tradeoffs are a good idea but compare this to Druid's 15?% damage decrease tradeoff on their pet.

    Holosmith has a tradeoff--Photon Forge replaces the F5 toolbelt skill. Oh wait that's not a tradeoff that's a buff lol.

    Firebrand has a tradeoff--Tomes that each come with an array of skills of their own for multiple situations replace insta-cast virtues. The Courage virtue broke stun. Oh wait, the elite skill Mantra stun breaks as well and has multiple charges and is a group stun breaker! Nice tradeoff.

    Mirage has a trade off--no more dodging! Oh no! You get to cast skills while evading now, you gain ambush skills, and can move in any direction while evading! Neat tradeoff!

    I can go on and on.

    Deadeye is admittedly a fair tradeoff if not in a similar state to Weaver is.

    Scourge has a decent tradeoff, in fact this is probably the most balanced tradeoff in the game.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    This s something that ArenaNet mentioned as a downside of Weaver as soon as they showcased it - one of the tradeoffs for the Weaver's greater range of skills available and ability to have skills of two attunements available simultaneously is that it can take them a little longer to access the 3-5 skills they want and can't necessarily be as reactive as a core elementalist. Instead, Weavers need to be thinking a few seconds ahead of what skills they may need in a few seconds' time as well as what they need now.

    So your observation seems to be an 'acting as intended'. Keep in mind that the elite specialisations are supposed to be horizontal rather than vertical progression: what you get from buying the expansion and training the specialisation is not supposed to be a straight power boost but simply a matter of more options being available. Of course, they often get the balance wrong and something comes out the gate that's more powerful than the previous options available for that profession, but that's not supposed to be the intent. If core elementalist or tempest works better for you, there's nothing wrong with that.

    With regard to the sword having defensive skills (which are therefore immediately available to weavers) - I don't think this is intended to address a problem with weavers specifically so much as sword being intended to be a weapon with a lot of sustain (keeping in mind that you also maintain the sustain coming from offhand dagger or focus) to make up for being a build with low base armour, low base health, and no option to weaponswap out of melee (unless you fall back on conjures, and in my experience, that doesn't work too well). Sword damage output on Weaver seems to be comparable to the damage output on other weapons, so what you get from giving up your range isn't damage but the defensive skills that allow you to survive at close range.

    Tradeoffs are a good idea but compare this to Druid's 15?% damage decrease tradeoff on their pet.

    Holosmith has a tradeoff--Photon Forge replaces the F5 toolbelt skill. Oh wait that's not a tradeoff that's a buff lol.

    Firebrand has a tradeoff--Tomes that each come with an array of skills of their own for multiple situations replace insta-cast virtues. The Courage virtue broke stun. Oh wait, the elite skill Mantra stun breaks as well and has multiple charges and is a group stun breaker! Nice tradeoff.

    Mirage has a trade off--no more dodging! Oh no! You get to cast skills while evading now, you gain ambush skills, and can move in any direction while evading! Neat tradeoff!

    I can go on and on.

    Deadeye is admittedly a fair tradeoff if not in a similar state to Weaver is.

    Scourge has a decent tradeoff, in fact this is probably the most balanced tradeoff in the game.

    They just started adding tradeoffs to classes that are missing them. Last patch was for HoT specs, next one should be for PoF. Hopefully they will be actual tradeoffs.

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