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Most sought after role for third e-spec?


Arheundel.6451

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What role would you like to see covered from a third e-spec? Below it's a set of roles which I think ele still miss and would definitely benefit from, if somebody want to propose an additional role, do so possibly with some reasoning.

900 range support/burst is already covered by scepterMelee burst PBAoE covered by sword-d/d1200 AoE range burst/support covered by staff

I really feel like ele should have had access to single target 1200 range since launch, focusing on damage avoidance rather than heal tanking would solve loads of issues while opening many doors . A single target burst from 1200 range should not be plagued by after cast and delays like it is for staff, its non-AoE nature would justify the addition of fast cast and lack of rooting animations

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Longbow arcanist that doesnt change attuning and adds 5th element (arcane) which works the same way like druid's CA, but instead of healing it charges on critical strikes, boon application and boon stealing (which it gets from traits and some weapon skills/utilities).

Arcane form skills will always crit like arcane utilities (and would preferably change based on equipped weapon) and will benefit from arcane GM trait (ferocity buff would be shorter though).

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Elementalist has already had two elite specs oriented towards enhancing their close-range capabilities (tempest through the mechanic, weaver through their weapon). I think it makes sense to go for something long-range before pushing for a third.

Rifle would probably make for a suitable weapon option - there are quite a few elemental-themed rifle skins available (mostly based off asura magitech environmental weapons) that don't really fit for the relatively mundane rifle use of warriors, elementalists, and deadeyes, but which would fit perfectly for a magitech-themed elementalist.

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The best option would probably be an e-spec that allow some ease for both melee and range either throught a weapon that find it's range/melee versatility based on the attunment or through a "stance profession mechanism" (F5) that change the AA of the elementalist's weapons.

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Fire Long Range (900-1200), and Air very long range(1200+), Water Short range(~360), and Earth close-mid range (300-900). And please, enough with fire burns, water heals, and air for cc. I want to dps no matter the attunement, just different utilities. There could be something that dispells enemy aoe/traps for instance.

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Offense/defense/burst and control are defined by the attunements.Tempest focus on area effects, group support and staying longer on attunementsWeaver focus on dueling (selfish spec with barrier, evades, etc) and juggling attunements (powerful effects and skills to fast swap attunements)So now we need an elite spec that changes the attunements function (without making them longer or shorter)

Regarding weapon, we definitely need longbow/rifle for a long-range (1200-1500) fast-attacking single-targeting (piercing) option. Everything else is mostly covered.Daggers are short-range, fast cast PBAoEScepter is mid-range,Staff is long-range, slow cast AoE

Now, if the spec will be dps or bunker it really depends on the interactions with the core lines.And the core lines need some serious rework to make them more viable on themselves and even with tempest and weaver.Tempest can only be a defensive buffer because the core lines can't provide any important buffs in any viable sense for PvE (might and fury with blasting fire fields?) and the aura share trait (the one thing used to share most of the elementalist buffs) is stuck in water, forcing tempest on a defensive traitline.

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@scureuil.4052 said:Single burst 1200 range => 85%Melee tank CC - PBAoE + teleports to targets => 15%

Why am I sure, that with such a result, the next spec will be melee ?

Because Anet love to make only melee specs for a profession that they claim is designed for ranged damage. Imo after tempest and weaver there should never be a spec that is focused on melee again. The only exception would be if they made a 2h weapon that has half the attunements as melee and the other half as 1200 range, with no profession mechanics that favor melee. But that is not truly melee focused anyway.

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From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

Ele doesnt even need pve specs anymore, it needs something reliable for pvp/wvw.

Tempest used to be top dmg class but got nerfed because weaver also fulfills that role. Single targt spec will only have high burst, but its dps would be mediocre so it doesnt compete with dps weaver builds at all. Support shouldnt even need to be discussed, and there's no other play style that ele lacks.

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@steki.1478 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

Ele doesnt even need pve specs anymore, it needs something reliable for pvp/wvw.

Tempest used to be top dmg class but got nerfed because weaver also fulfills that role. Single targt spec will only have high burst, but its dps would be mediocre so it doesnt compete with dps weaver builds at all. Support shouldnt even need to be discussed, and there's no other play style that ele lacks.I’m not arguing against the need for a new, fresh (and maybe PvP/WvW-reliable) espec; I’m just pointing out from my perspective that the push for a new single target ranged weapon seems largely unnecessary while scepter exists. I believe the weapon is held back by the ‘outdatedness’ that seems to plague the entirety of core ele, and could be refined further to fulfil the defined role single target burst (which it kinda tries to do already on FA burst builds), without restricting it to an espec. For a new weapon, long range I can agree on, but why restrict it to single target (even more so when discussing WvW)? The AAs could look like piercing/exploding Scorchrazors while AoEs just need to be ‘one-hit’ and ‘on-cast’ like Grasping Dead or Mind Spike, not lingering or delayed like the ones we have now.

My reference to tempest was purely a suggestion to shift it from being a ‘melee’ oriented espec mechanic to something more in line with ele’s profession description of being ‘ranged’. I didn’t make any suggestions to try to increase its PvE dps, and even then I don’t really believe in the singular ‘dps espec’ philosophy anyway (cuz imo weaver is the ‘condi espec’, which sounds just as far fetched).

If ele needs especs to carry its behind through PvP, we might need to address core problems first, rather than pretending that they don’t exist by covering it with a shiny new espec that hides all those flaws. This doesn’t apply only to ele; many future especs could be easily made provided that the core class is fairly strong by itself, but anet apparently intends to deal with this in a possibly more convoluted way (see ‘tradeoffs’ for druid and daredevil).

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

Ele doesnt even need pve specs anymore, it needs something reliable for pvp/wvw.

Tempest used to be top dmg class but got nerfed because weaver also fulfills that role. Single targt spec will only have high burst, but its dps would be mediocre so it doesnt compete with dps weaver builds at all. Support shouldnt even need to be discussed, and there's no other play style that ele lacks.I’m not arguing against the need for a new, fresh (and maybe PvP/WvW-reliable) espec; I’m just pointing out from my perspective that the push for a new single target ranged weapon seems largely unnecessary while scepter exists. I believe the weapon is held back by the ‘outdatedness’ that seems to plague the entirety of core ele, and could be refined further to fulfil the defined role single target burst (which it kinda tries to do already on FA burst builds), without restricting it to an espec. For a new weapon, long range I can agree on, but why restrict it to single target (even more so when discussing WvW)? The AAs could look like piercing/exploding Scorchrazors while AoEs just need to be ‘one-hit’ and ‘on-cast’ like Grasping Dead or Mind Spike, not lingering or delayed like the ones we have now.

My reference to tempest was purely a suggestion to shift it from being a ‘melee’ oriented espec mechanic to something more in line with ele’s profession description of being ‘ranged’. I didn’t make any suggestions to try to increase its PvE dps, and even then I don’t really believe in the singular ‘dps espec’ philosophy anyway (cuz imo weaver is the ‘condi espec’, which sounds just as far fetched).

If ele needs especs to carry its behind through PvP, we might need to address core problems first, rather than pretending that they don’t exist by covering it with a shiny new espec that hides all those flaws. This doesn’t apply only to ele; many future especs could be easily made provided that the core class is fairly strong by itself, but anet apparently intends to deal with this in a possibly more convoluted way (see ‘tradeoffs’ for druid and daredevil).

I fully agree on revamping core ele, but if you havent noticed, the thread about solving ele's issues was posted 1 year ago and literally nothing impactful happened to core ele. Elite spec is pretty much the only way to "fix" the issues of core class, especially if you equip it with fast hitting skills and bunch of modifiers.

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:For a new weapon, long range I can agree on, but why restrict it to single target (even more so when discussing WvW)? The AAs could look like piercing/exploding Scorchrazors while AoEs just need to be ‘one-hit’ and ‘on-cast’ like Grasping Dead or Mind Spike, not lingering or delayed like the ones we have now.

Check out my suggestion for the Longbow HEREThe idea is a long range weapon with different effects on the attacks. The auto-attack, for example, would be a single target double-hit (like warriors longbow aa) in air, an explosive shot in fire, piercing shot in earth and healing shot in water...

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:My reference to tempest was purely a suggestion to shift it from being a ‘melee’ oriented espec mechanic to something more in line with ele’s profession description of being ‘ranged’. I didn’t make any suggestions to try to increase its PvE dps, and even then I don’t really believe in the singular ‘dps espec’ philosophy anyway (cuz imo weaver is the ‘condi espec’, which sounds just as far fetched).

Tempest focus on longer attunements (to achieve overloads) and AoE effecs (offensive and supportive). Overloads are not melee. You can hit stuff with them over 600-900 units, thats not melee, thats mid-range. Warhorn is mid-low range. The only realy melee weapon in ele is sword (150?), even daggers are short range (300-600). You can focus your tempest on dps (going air/fire) you can focus it on condi-dmg (fire/arcane) or defense and group support (water/earth)Weaver focus on short attunements (short duration bonus for swaping, incentivizing quick swap) and selfish effects (self buffs, barrier, stat bonuses). Its a good dueling spec as it gives new dual skills, and a lot of evades, barrier, stab, condi clear and stats (vitality mostly). Its also a good dps spec as it has great dps bonuses (both power and condi) and lets the ele swap attunements faster getting to use more skills. Ele dps (in PvE) has always been about using its 2-5 skills quick and using conjures to cover their CDs. Anything the lower attunement CD would improve the ele dps by letting it cycle its skills faster, weaver does that and on top gives some nice stat bonuses for swapping attunements.

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:If ele needs especs to carry its behind through PvP, we might need to address core problems first, rather than pretending that they don’t exist by covering it with a shiny new espec that hides all those flaws.Yes, core needs a nice revamp.I don't think a major rework is needed, but some shuffling of effects and traits would make a huge difference:

  • Giving the aura share trait to tempest and the aura heal trait to water would make it possible for tempests to be offensive support, providing buffs and dps to group, while core ele could use the auras to heal improving sustain;
  • Changing the smoldering auras to provide resistance instead of cleansing would make fire-auras a different way to deal with conditions (water cleanses, fire resists) creating different play-styles instead of the same in different traitlines.
  • Changing certain aura buffs to pulse while the aura is active (instead of single application) would make maintaining auras (with traits and runes and combos) more rewarding.
  • Improving stats and minor traits of each elemental trait-line and providing arcane with the old lingering elements would make core ele a viable alternative to elite specs in all game modes, due to the access to 2 elemental lines and maintaining their benefits shortly with arcane.
  • MORE SYNERGY!
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@lLobo.7960 said:Tempest focus on longer attunements (to achieve overloads) and AoE effecs (offensive and supportive). Overloads are not melee. You can hit stuff with them over 600-900 units, thats not melee, thats mid-range. Warhorn is mid-low range. The only realy melee weapon in ele is sword (150?), even daggers are short range (300-600).

Overloads are effectively melee. Largest overload radius is 360 on overload air, which is equivalent to the lower end of dagger range. Basically very short range and almost melee. For a nice reference, corona burst on holosmith has 300 range and is considered a melee attack. Overload earth is 240 radius, while overload fire is only 180. The only way to hit stuff with overloads from a bigger range is to leave the field and run away, but that doesn't mean that it's a ranged attack. It only means that after your melee attack you have a lingering field that will hit no enemy players that are thinking straight. Now warhorn is mostly a ranged weapon, but it is not enough to make it a ranged spec, because the mechanic forces a melee playstyle no matter your weapon choice. At least weaver allows you to be ranged with other weapons. Though the reason why weaver is mostly a melee spec comes down to dual attunements being terribly designed for non-sword weapons, which means that you mostly have to use sword.

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@Ganathar.4956 said:At least weaver allows you to be ranged with other weapons. Though the reason why weaver is mostly a melee spec comes down to dual attunements being terribly designed for non-sword weapons, which means that you mostly have to use sword.

I can agree with most of what you said. I still don't think overloads are melee, but yea, very short range, and I'd agree with making them (fire/earth/water) larger and with better group effects (fire already pulses might, air should pulse the electric discharge bonus to 5 allies and hit 5 enemies, etc), but I don't think they are melee per se... but whatever.

But one thing here...The reason why weaver is melee is because sword is far superior than any other weapon.Staff weaver was great in PvE but got nerfed. In PvP staff is just sub-par if the opposing team has any class with a teleport (thief, guard, sword weaver, mesmer, rev). Because there is no point on using a long range slow weapon without defensive skills or teleports if anyone can just jump on you and wipe you out or force you to be on the run instead of supporting your team.Scepter weaver was quite good for a while, but the nerfs to it made it not worth it due to the same thing with staff, plus, any ranger will one-shot you before you can use your burst. And if you a chance to burst, they will invul+stealth+rush away to re-position. Ele does not have that option.

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