shadowpass.4236 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 @bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@"toxic.3648" said:for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtierheck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are sayinglooking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" . Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@"toxic.3648" said:for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtierheck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are sayinglooking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" . Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of higher tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.You play nec to have that much problems against mes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 @viquing.8254 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@"toxic.3648" said:for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtierheck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are sayinglooking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" . Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of higher tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.You play nec to have that much problems against mes ?I'm a ranger main but I can play every class on a variety of builds and maintain my rating pretty easily. Also, that's a pretty silly question. If you are 1v1ing a mesmer as a necro, you're doing something seriously wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 @viquing.8254 said:@praqtos.9035 said:@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 said:Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?2 choice answer :1) The reward isn't here.2) There is no good mesmers.You are wrong, some meh mesmer being carried by chaos/inspiration/chrono with chaos interrupt/lost time bunker in top25 last season. mAT Mes ritu singlehandedly carried by condi chaos interrupt as it does 3s immob on full condi duration mirage. Its annoying to deal with only because of immob, if they would give more boons/more condis for interrupt without immob, it would be more bearableYeah I know that, we are talking about power block fine here.Ah...My bad then ....Power block is bugged and its.... Blowing my mind how they broke it. 3s cd on INTERRUPT for 900 damage/weakness.... its only worth taking on a mirage with sword ambush ,otherwise its a waste imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@"toxic.3648" said:for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtierheck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are sayinglooking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" . Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.No clue what that has to do with what i said. You said you would kill the same player wrecking you with mantra Mes easy if they would play another build. To make that a valid point the mantra Mes would need to get just as experienced (playing it around the same amount of time) to make it comparable with his Mesmer gameplay. You make it sound like the mantra Mesmer player would suck on other builds with giving it the same amount of time and training because the other build is harder to play (in your opinion). That has nothing to do with EU vs NA and with your rating. I think that lacks in proof because from my knowledge about all good Mesmers worth mentioning they mostly play only mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime, how would you know they would be worse with another build they have played just as long?@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 said:@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 said:Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?2 choice answer :1) The reward isn't here.2) There is no good mesmers.I don't get why you are saying that when we already talked about a mesmer using only Powerblock interrupt playing in Plat3/Legend EU from the shown rating in some videos. Means he is at least Top100 and from reading his gameplay he is not only good but EU top lvl. I never said it is easy to play and that everyone can do it. I can't, you can't, probably most ppl can't but it is possible when played very well. Ppl just like to go the easy way and most other builds are way easier, that is the reason you barely see it not because it is unplayable in high ranks. It's a MONTAGE ROFL.If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking. You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 @bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 @bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with MesmerI don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with MesmerI don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 @bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with MesmerI don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy. Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.As Shorts himself said, most people who run the mantra builds are one-tricks who can only kill people using the blink combo. He also said that playing the mantra builds properly don't give their opponents any chance to counterplay/react to the one-shot. Which is why I said that these same players on other mesmer specs wouldn't stand a chance if they're not running busted builds. However, players like CJ and Mur (and Shorts) are able to play these builds properly, landing their bursts and being able to win extended fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with MesmerI don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy. Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.Oneshot and Mantra are still not the same thing, you can play a oneshot Mesmer without any Mantra, in particular you don't need Mantra of Distraction because the stun from f3 is way better to land your burst without it being dodged. I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable and no crit like Powerblock and Pulm. Impact. And Mantra of Pain same thing, this skill ofc makes applying dmg and oneshot burst even easier. Mantra of Distraction itself doesn't deserve the hate it gets in my opinion. Even more it is one of the most reactive and skillful skills. Also harder and more reactive than Zeromis dodge for days double distortion signet spam utilities. As long as it is a pure interrupt skill and not a lock down skill combined with hard cc/ immob and only low rewarding when random spammed (means no Lost Time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 @bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with MesmerI don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy. Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.Oneshot and Mantra are still not the same thing, you can play a oneshot Mesmer without any Mantra, in particular you don't need Mantra of Distraction because the stun from f3 is way better to land your burst without it being dodged. I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable and no crit like Powerblock and Pulm. Impact. And Mantra of Pain same thing, this skill ofc makes applying dmg and oneshot burst even easier. Mantra of Distraction itself doesn't deserve the hate it gets in my opinion. Even more it is one of the most reactive and skillful skills. Also harder and more reactive than Zeromis dodge for days double distortion signet spam utilities. As long as it is a pure interrupt skill and not a lock down skill combined with hard cc/ immob and only low rewarding when random spammed (means no Lost Time).Yeah I don't have issues with other power mesmer builds. I only think mantras are a problem. I know Zeromis' main build without the double distortion signet and even though it has one-shot potential it's requires a lot of skill to play well so I'm fine with it.Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal. As I've stated previously, the combination of MoD + Power Block can essentially prevent someone from using their heal indefinitely which 100% should not be a thing. Power Blocking someone's heal with a well-timed interrupt such as Mirage Thrust or teleport -> Diversion is a great. Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.I think putting mantras on 20 second cooldowns with an extremely short .25s cast time on the charges (or no cast time but adding an animation similar to a thief's Head Shot to prevent them from being used simultaneously with skills like gs2) would go a long way towards making them more balanced. Of course, even then, skills like Mantra of Resolve need to have their effects tuned down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876 The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with MesmerI don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy. Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.Oneshot and Mantra are still not the same thing, you can play a oneshot Mesmer without any Mantra, in particular you don't need Mantra of Distraction because the stun from f3 is way better to land your burst without it being dodged. I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable and no crit like Powerblock and Pulm. Impact. And Mantra of Pain same thing, this skill ofc makes applying dmg and oneshot burst even easier. Mantra of Distraction itself doesn't deserve the hate it gets in my opinion. Even more it is one of the most reactive and skillful skills. Also harder and more reactive than Zeromis dodge for days double distortion signet spam utilities. As long as it is a pure interrupt skill and not a lock down skill combined with hard cc/ immob and only low rewarding when random spammed (means no Lost Time).Yeah I don't have issues with other power mesmer builds. I only think mantras are a problem. I know Zeromis' main build without the double distortion signet and even though it has one-shot potential it's requires a lot of skill to play well so I'm fine with it.Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal. As I've stated previously, the combination of MoD + Power Block can essentially prevent someone from using their heal indefinitely which 100% should not be a thing. Power Blocking someone's heal with a well-timed interrupt such as Mirage Thrust or teleport -> Diversion is a great. Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.I think putting mantras on 20 second cooldowns with an extremely short .25s cast time on the charges (or no cast time but adding an animation similar to a thief's Head Shot to prevent them from being used simultaneously with skills like gs2) would go a long way towards making them more balanced. Of course, even then, skills like Mantra of Resolve need to have their effects tuned down.I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stop by and tell you how hard it is to hit an interrupt on big skills on good ppl^^ I mean i think it is not that hard that it is unplayable in high ranks when you play it very well but you make it sound like the opponent just have to sit in the Mesmers face and needs to facetank every Mantra interrupt on big skills. That is actually not the case. The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions). You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.I don't think any nerf on Mantra of Distraction is needed when it is only used with Powerblock. Nerfs only needed for Lost Time, CI and Mantra of Pain. No clue about the other Mantras, except for the Healmantra used in Inspiration burst builds i haven't seen them in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Leave revenant alone. When they delete thief, that's all I will have left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@"toxic.3648" said:for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtierheck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are sayinglooking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" . Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong. Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level. If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crypto.7609 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Revenants burst has no counterplay, can be done every 5 sec from behind a pillarMesmer burst has no counterplay from stealth, but at least that can be done once 30 sec minimum, twice if elite is usedEither nerf their dmg or make it easily telegraphed like warriors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 @mortrialus.3062 said:This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong. Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level. If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldownMantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully chargingMantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldownMantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per chargeMantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldownRemove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.There's also been a bug that let's a high frequency of attacks go through block skills like ranger gs4 and mesmer sc2 and s4. This issue pops up with holosmiths and mesmers more than any other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 you shouldn't be able to get 24 might from pain mantra lol.oh yeah, bit of a side note, but mes axe 3 got nerfed for doing 6k. soulbeast axe 3 still does 2-3 times that. wouldn't be complete without a slb qq tidbit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@"mortrialus.3062" said:This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong. Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level. If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 @mortrialus.3062 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong. Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level. If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything. Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationSharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationSharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationBarbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s durationNow compare them to the mesmer's traits:Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s durationDuelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s durationThe mesmer versions are on steroids compared to the ones the rest of the classes get. So, using only 3 weapon skills, a mesmer can stack 20 bleeds and 10 stacks of confusion in roughly 2 seconds. I thought condis were supposed to ramp up as damage over time? Apparently this doesn't apply to mesmer cause you guys can not only burst massive stacks of condis but maintain them as well.Bladetrail isn't even on the same level as Phantasmal Duelist. You can literally strafe every time the warrior uses it and it will never hit because the projectile is so slow. Not to mention the skill struggles to break 2k damage per hit with 25 stacks of might + max Insight.Condi mirage has many other ways to burst (lol)/sustain conditions. You will still be able to kill people. Either way, Sharper Images and Duelist's Discipline are both completely overtuned and should've been brought in line with similar traits a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong. Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level. If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything. Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationSharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationSharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationBarbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s durationNow compare them to the mesmer's traits:Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s durationDuelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s durationThe mesmer versions are on steroids compared to the ones the rest of the classes get. So, using only 3 weapon skills, a mesmer can stack 20 bleeds and 10 stacks of confusion in roughly 2 seconds. I thought condis were supposed to ramp up as damage over time? Apparently this doesn't apply to mesmer cause you guys can not only burst massive stacks of condis but maintain them as well.Bladetrail isn't even on the same level as Phantasmal Duelist. You can literally strafe every time the warrior uses it and it will never hit because the projectile is so slow. Not to mention the skill struggles to break 2k damage per hit with 25 stacks of might + max Insight.Condi mirage has many other ways to burst (lol)/sustain conditions. You will still be able to kill people. Either way, Sharper Images and Duelist's Discipline are both completely overtuned and should've been brought in line with similar traits a long time ago.Yeah, should been brought in the line, you know what else should? Blurred Frenzy, Jaunt, Fencer's Finesse, Critical Infusion, Mirage Mantle, to name a few. (and I mean buffs, gigantic ones to be on par with similar skills and traits) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pengu.7481 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @shadowpass.4236 said:Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.i dont care what rating etc u are, the fact that u are calling for nerfs to an otherwise underperforming spec unless theres and uber player behind the wheels leave me to only 1 conclusion to this thread (discounting rev ofc, that needs to be looked at)which i think praqtos nailed @praqtos.9035 said:He don't want to admit if someone is simply better than him. And ofc nerf good players that kills him... He shouldnt die to good players so Anet must nerf a build they use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 @toxic.3648 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.i dont care what rating etc u are, the fact that u are calling for nerfs to an otherwise underperforming spec unless theres and uber player behind the wheels leave me to only 1 conclusion to this thread (discounting rev ofc, that needs to be looked at)which i think praqtos nailed @praqtos.9035 said:He don't want to admit if someone is simply better than him. And ofc nerf good players that kills him... He shouldnt die to good players so Anet must nerf a build they useBoi read what I wrote againI said the two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur.I beat CJ in the finals of that 1v1 tourny.Mur only kills me maybe at the start of the match if I don't know he's on the other team and I don't see him engaging.I want d/d dodge spam condi thief to be nerfed too even though it's not overperforming cause it's ALSO a super braindead spec to play/fight against.Mantra mesmer is one of the lowest risk, highest reward builds to run in ranked. You only have a chance at dying if you miss your burst. However, if you're not a potato and can land one of the easiest combos in the game, you will kill your target 100% of the time and won't have to worry unless you're bad enough to die to someone spamming 1 in downstate. Furthermore, if you really think stealthing from halfway across the map and instagibbing someone who has no idea you're there + has no chance to react/counterplay is fine and healthy for the game then I'm kinda done responding to you. There's no point in me trying to reason with people who have severely poor/nearly nonexistent understanding of balance in this game.For the record, the best mesmer on NA/entire game, the player that makes content for/plays mantra mesmer almost exclusively, and myself (as well as the majority of top players on NA) share the opinion that mantras are busted, take absolutely zero skill to play, are extremely reliable/easy to land, and don't even give the other person a chance to fight back (unless your timing is garbage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@shadowpass.4236 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong. Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level. If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything. Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationSharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationSharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s durationBarbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s durationNow compare them to the mesmer's traits:Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s durationDuelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s durationThe mesmer versions are on steroids compared to the ones the rest of the classes get. So, using only 3 weapon skills, a mesmer can stack 20 bleeds and 10 stacks of confusion in roughly 2 seconds. I thought condis were supposed to ramp up as damage over time? Apparently this doesn't apply to mesmer cause you guys can not only burst massive stacks of condis but maintain them as well.Bladetrail isn't even on the same level as Phantasmal Duelist. You can literally strafe every time the warrior uses it and it will never hit because the projectile is so slow. Not to mention the skill struggles to break 2k damage per hit with 25 stacks of might + max Insight.Condi mirage has many other ways to burst (lol)/sustain conditions. You will still be able to kill people. Either way, Sharper Images and Duelist's Discipline are both completely overtuned and should've been brought in line with similar traits a long time ago.Yeah, should been brought in the line, you know what else should? Blurred Frenzy, Jaunt, Fencer's Finesse, Critical Infusion, Mirage Mantle, to name a few. (and I mean buffs, gigantic ones to be on par with similar skills and traits)Not to mention how all of these classes different and they hold all damage at their own, not tied to a resource that has 2400 hp that being killed with single auto attack.This "genius,brainiac and whatnot" dont understand that mesmer damage being split between phantasms/clones and rely on them,which is obvious. Give all damage to mesmer himself and let him spam as much condis as scouge do(while operating strongest conditions in the game) without need to summon horde of clones and spec into mirage and we have a deal.Suddenly OP demand all-nerfing of everything that mesmer has .. :joy:tldr: nerf class that kills me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 It really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies. As a not mesmer main multiclass player i agree with some nerf requests because they are logically low effort high rewards skills or traits (CI, Lost Time, Mantra of Pain) and hold powercreep higher than needed for a burstclasss (also after nerfs mesmers can still burst with condis what is a big design mistake for condis in the first place and in general not only on mesmer) and the skillfloor and -ceiling lower than it should be for a class with that high active outplay potential.Some skills like the barely used condiclean and stability Mantra and Healmantra i said i don't know good enough to make an opinion and for Mantra of Distraction i described why it is one of the most skilled and reacive utility for mesmer and for that even has the most ways of counterplay. I don't think any nerf is needed here. As an usual opponent of Mesmerplayers (good and bad ones) i don't mind to fight a mesmer only using Mantra of Distraction when it is only combined with Powerblock at all no matter on what class i play. I think NA's biased opinion about that Mantra is not up to date aynmore, still only the result from the time where it had a stun included. And now maybe based on Lost Time synergy what turns it into a brainless spammable dmg skill. Otherwise tell me how for example Signet of Midnight, what is just another out of jail card after failing your positioning, dodge or movement with adding another stealth and stunbreak needs more skill than a reactive interrupt skill? Powermesmer also is a class relying a lot on comboing stuff, adding an animation or casttime will make it clunky or even completely unviable for an reactive interrupt playstyle on Powermesmer. Spammy builds not comboing that much like Staff Chaos Interrupt would be the builds not affected by this. Means that would only hurt Powerbuilds where it is not broken anyway.We could talk about the cds. But start maybe with 15 secs instead 12, you have to consider that Mantras have an uptime of a very vulnerable recharge a glassbuild needs to cover to not get easy killed by 2 autoattacks from metabuilds during that. Because of these opportunity costs Mantras have a lower cd on recharging. 20+secs cd is too long i think. They can lower the cd refreshment from Mantra on f3, i agree to that. Start with using the correct definition: A mesmer based on only Mantra of Distraction as an interrupt tool is not a Mantramesmer it is an Interruptmesmer. Mantramesmers have at least 2 Mantras used and they relying on more or less brainless Mantraspam either for dmg (Lost Time and Mantra of Pain) or/and heal (when using Inspiration traitline and often with 3 Mantras used). In this correct terminology a Mantra(Spam) Mesmer (mostly oneshot) is indeed very easy and noobfriendly during an Interruptmesmer (with Mantra of Distraction/ Powerblock only) is one of the hardest to play, most reactive/ interactive and balanced Powermesmerplaystyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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