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Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants


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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

Talking about Mirage or?If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:As you can see in
this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon
tm

Guard got no compensation.Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.

Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.

Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.

Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

Talking about Mirage or?If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:As you can see in
this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.Oh, this guy who came to plus 1 me when I was berserk chrono and he died 1x2 (no gwell,no chaos interrupt,he just facetanked mirrorblade burst right into his face without me going into stealth)... Such a good player /s. Surprisingly he doesnt know how to fight against a mesmer and felt like he is rather weak than good. He was really good long ago but now he is just another boosted revenant.Emm... have you seen the date of that clip? 6 months ago? Have you any idea how memser changed since then? Couldnt you find something even older?@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon
tm

Guard got no compensation.Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.

Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.
Lost time was a dead trait, thanks for a rework, I guess?Guardian took a hit because they didnt want to nerf 50% crit chance trait(like they did with a chronophantasma and nerfed everything but not this trait).The rest is passive auto proc without player input. I remember two necromancers oneshotted you as soon as you reached 50% health. Reaper was heavily boosted since then.Shattered aeigs: they probably decided to nerf another passive auto proc damage source(as you can get aegis from your allies,especially firebrand) despite it was in unviable for pvp traitline.Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.Dont you forgot to mention something else? I would gladly send you to google again but fine:Power Block: The damage of this skill has been increased by 20% so that it now matches its tooltip. This trait can no longer critically hit foes.^And into addition they broke it and it doesnt apply damage/weakness on every interrupt but 3 seconds icd as it is PvE.Nerfing to the ground an interrupt trait and make it less rewarding than just landing a CC, thats really odd to me.Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.I thought you compare it to LR and didnt know about weakness, rip.Sadly, your post have no value as you compare apples and oranges
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I will put one thing that we all can agree on (hopefully)

In gw2 no matter how skilled you are, there is always a chance for you to get one shotted at some point, so what i want to say is of course dealing with one shot builds is harder than other builds.

He wouldn't survive 2 soulbeasts either who knows what they are doing, actually add any 2 burst classes that knows what they are doing and you wouldn't survive them.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong.

Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level.

If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.
  1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
  2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.

I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.

Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything.

Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:
  1. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  2. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  3. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  4. - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s durationNow compare them to the mesmer's traits:
  5. - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
  6. - 100% chance on HIT, 3s duration

And aside from Necromancer none of them have viable condition damage builds. Condi Warrior, Condi Engineer, and Condi Ranger are garbage. Anyone playing those builds over their meta counter parts can expect to drop 1-2 tiers in whatever division they are in compared to what they would achieve with their meta counter parts. Probably even more.

If anything, you've made an excellent argument for buffing those bleed related minors UP to 100% chance on critical, especially since nothing other than Mesmer and Scourge have remotely viable condition builds and it's been that way since Path of Fire came out. This is generally why I'm baffled because you're suggesting traits that are good, not earth shaking, and making them actively bad.

At least when I do math and point out how I think Healing Turret is over tuned and over performing I make sure to take special note to talk about it in comparison to other good healing skills that are actively being run on meta builds.

I genuinely have not seen a condition warrior since Path of Fire came out. To be frank, I don't even know if I saw any during Heart of Thorns either.

You're making comparisons to dumpster specs like that's where it should be, and like Condi Warrior, Engineer, and Ranger are exemplar examples of balance that are doing okay and might thrive if only a few of the meta specs were brought down to their level.

The mesmer versions are on steroids compared to the ones the rest of the classes get. So, using only 3 weapon skills, a mesmer can stack 20 bleeds and 10 stacks of confusion in roughly 2 seconds. I thought condis were supposed to ramp up as damage over time? Apparently this doesn't apply to mesmer cause you guys can not only burst massive stacks of condis but maintain them as well.Condi mirage has many other ways to burst (lol)/sustain conditions. You will still be able to kill people. Either way, Sharper Images and Duelist's Discipline are both completely overtuned and should've been brought in line with similar traits a long time ago.

Condition damage is an archetype. It has a number of benefits. The condition damage aspect ignores toughness, and when using primarily condition damage stats is designed to provide noticeably higher sustained DPS than Power Damage. The downsides is that it does take more time for your damage to fully occur, and it can be completely negated after the attack has occurred by condition cleanses as well as resistances and invulnerability (While invulnerability will prevent new attacks from doing damage, but it uniquely negates condition damage already applied).

Condition damage, post stacking revamp, was never meant to be "Passively tick 5% of a person's health each second while they have two shot combos that's fair right", which is the impression you and everyone else on here seems to be under about it's sustained damage. It's effectively armor penetration that takes more time to happen and is supposed to do higher damage overall but has additional counter play. If you eat multiple condition damage attacks back to back to back, you're going to die and quickly as you should. Just not as quickly as power doing the same.

Now I actually went and did some testing on a variety of amulets and traits and combos on the Light Armor Golem and here are my results.

For the record the Light Armor Golem has 17,197 health and 2,185 armor.

Here are the results of using Phantasmal Duelist on the golem and how much damage it did to it in it's entirety. I also used the standard Chaotic Interruption build with Traveler Runes because that's what is meta currently.

Wanderer: 11,350 after a 3 second attack animation from Illusory Unload and 6 seconds of bleeding after said animation.

Sages: 7,050 after a 3 second attack animation from Illusory Unload and 3.5 seconds of bleeding after said animation.

Carrion: 8,598 after a 3 second attack animation from Illusory Unload and 3.5 seconds of bleeding after said animation.

These are all very strong, no doubt about it. But you know what is just about as strong?

Core Ranger Rapid Fire on a Demo Amulet, which consistently did about 9k damage after a 2.5 animation. And I can amp that up further with weapon swap traits, pet swap traits, and fury which weren't utilized. This doesn't even account for Sic Em.

To me, this is pretty fair. Phantasms are supposed to be mesmer's most potent weapon skills. It's literally your killing moving that isn't a shatter, that you need to actively go out of your way to whittle their defenses down while avoiding their oncoming attacks and making sure it lands properly, just like everyone else's high value damage skills. And if you're geared for it, it has a bit more damage overall than Power Damage, but it takes longer to happen and can be negated after the fact. I find this desire to take a 20 second DPS weapon cooldown attack that tuned with plenty of time for counter play before and after the fact and is outclassed by most power damage skills in both how high they're critting and the immediacy of their power damage and gut it from 11k damage down to 3.5k like completely ridiculous. In a "I just don't want your class to be any good" sort of way.

Phantasmal Duelist is performing appropriately based on how condition and power should be balanced against each other. And 11k over 9 seconds on a 20 second cooldown is pretty mediocre in a meta where Spellbreakers are casually unblockably dodge rolling for 6-7k damage, and tossing around quickness boosted 10k Arcing slice crits, 8k Revenant Death Strikes, or Holosmiths sheer ability to rush down an opponent. Heck I've seen Ranger Axe 3 crit me for 12k on Boonbeast back when people were running that. You want to talk about "Condi burst lol" and I can go "Power crit sustain lol". Most power builds in the game both burst harder, and do more sustained pressure better and more easily than their condition counter parts.

And the whole "20 bleed 10 confusion in three weapon cooldowns" as some sort of extreme is just silliness. 3 second Phantasm cast, 1 second pre-channel for scepter+2.5 channel + 6 seconds for that damage to actually complete once all is said and done. So that's 9 seconds. Between the scepter channel (Which will likely happen as the phantasm is channeling) and the 4 seconds of confusion and 6 seconds of bleed after the fact that's 9 seconds to do something before you might die if you don't use your healing skill. You can stunbreak and negate the burst with some sort of block skill or evade. If you had stability you can just dodge roll the burst. If you eat the full burst you can condition cleanse and avoid a majority of the damage then heal to recover from the damage you were forced to eat. You can cleanse condition. You can just brute force a heal right through it. Core Ranger Rapid Fire and letting the Smokescale Shadow Assault will do more damage in 1/5 the time.

And I'm not afraid to point out when mesmer has skills that are clearly over performing. I thought scepter's power damage on power builds was ridiculous. I thought the Torch Phantasms were in need of serious nerfing when you could stealth and then dump 20k burning damage on someone from stealth in 10 stacks over 4 seconds. But 11k damage over 9 seconds on a 20 second cooldown if you take two both a traitline and a specific trait is fine. It's leagues more fair and balanced than most of the other stuff we see in the other top tier specs now a days.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

Talking about Mirage or?If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:As you can see in
this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.Oh, this guy who came to plus 1 me when I was berserk chrono and he died 1x2 (no gwell,no chaos interrupt,he just facetanked mirrorblade burst right into his face without me going into stealth)... Such a good player /s. Surprisingly he doesnt know how to fight against a mesmer and felt like he is rather weak than good. He was really good long ago but now he is just another boosted revenant.Emm... have you seen the date of that clip? 6 months ago? Have you any idea how memser changed since then? Couldnt you find something even older?@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon
tm

Guard got no compensation.Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.

Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.
Lost time was a dead trait, thanks for a rework, I guess?Guardian took a hit because they didnt want to nerf 50% crit chance trait(like they did with a chronophantasma and nerfed everything but not this trait).The rest is passive auto proc without player input. I remember two necromancers oneshotted you as soon as you reached 50% health. Reaper was heavily boosted since then.Shattered aeigs: they probably decided to nerf another passive auto proc damage source(as you can get aegis from your allies,especially firebrand) despite it was in unviable for pvp traitline.Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.Dont you forgot to mention something else? I would gladly send you to google again but fine:Power Block: The damage of this skill has been increased by 20% so that it now matches its tooltip. This trait can no longer critically hit foes.^And into addition they broke it and it doesnt apply damage/weakness on every interrupt but 3 seconds icd as it is PvE.Nerfing to the ground an interrupt trait and make it less rewarding than just landing a CC, thats really odd to me.Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.I thought you compare it to LR and didnt know about weakness, rip.Sadly, your post have no value as you compare apples and oranges

Comparing Apples to Oranges is what everyone is doing on this forum. "Engi stealth to high, mesmer stealth is only 3 seconds" Thats the same type of comparison.S/D thief in particular has also been toned down alongside Power Mesmer. This clip was still with 6 second exhaust from EM however. Also, saying either Pain or Torben is a weak player kind of proves that you have no clue of what you're talking about.I get that you're a mesmer main, I get that you want your spec to be good. I get that.

Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides. But spreading false information and de-valuing other peoples opinions in a public forum is not the right way to go about things. As I see no value in arguing with someone so ignorant and so hell-bent that he's playing a bad spec I'm going to stop responding to you now.Just remember that there are always two sides of a coin.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

Talking about Mirage or?If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:As you can see in
this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.Oh, this guy who came to plus 1 me when I was berserk chrono and he died 1x2 (no gwell,no chaos interrupt,he just facetanked mirrorblade burst right into his face without me going into stealth)... Such a good player /s. Surprisingly he doesnt know how to fight against a mesmer and felt like he is rather weak than good. He was really good long ago but now he is just another boosted revenant.Emm... have you seen the date of that clip? 6 months ago? Have you any idea how memser changed since then? Couldnt you find something even older?@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon
tm

Guard got no compensation.Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.

Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.
Lost time was a dead trait, thanks for a rework, I guess?Guardian took a hit because they didnt want to nerf 50% crit chance trait(like they did with a chronophantasma and nerfed everything but not this trait).The rest is passive auto proc without player input. I remember two necromancers oneshotted you as soon as you reached 50% health. Reaper was heavily boosted since then.Shattered aeigs: they probably decided to nerf another passive auto proc damage source(as you can get aegis from your allies,especially firebrand) despite it was in unviable for pvp traitline.Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.Dont you forgot to mention something else? I would gladly send you to google again but fine:Power Block: The damage of this skill has been increased by 20% so that it now matches its tooltip. This trait can no longer critically hit foes.^And into addition they broke it and it doesnt apply damage/weakness on every interrupt but 3 seconds icd as it is PvE.Nerfing to the ground an interrupt trait and make it less rewarding than just landing a CC, thats really odd to me.Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.I thought you compare it to LR and didnt know about weakness, rip.Sadly, your post have no value as you compare apples and oranges

Comparing Apples to Oranges is what everyone is doing on this forum. "Engi stealth to high, mesmer stealth is only 3 seconds" Thats the same type of comparison.As you mean its being compared to other party stealth utlities and toolbelt on x2 less cooldown are nothing alike?S/D thief in particular has also been toned down alongside Power Mesmer. This clip was still with 6 second exhaust from EM however. Also, saying either Pain or Torben is a weak player kind of proves that you have no clue of what you're talking about.No clue about what? That he is bad at this MU? Why would he die while outnumbering me then ? :joy:I get that you're a mesmer main, I get that you want your spec to be good. I get that.From your every post: you want mesmer to get nerfed because guardian was nerfed, rofl.Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.Condi mirage + chaotic interruption which isnt discussed in this thread, why you even talking about it? I legit dont understand why you even post ANYTHING when you dont know what is thread about ?????????Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.But spreading false information and de-valuing other peoples opinions in a public forum is not the right way to go about things.What? Just what?You literally compare completely different things and demand it to be nerfed just because guardian was nerfed. LOL.Its like I would complain sword has a melee range and rifle is 1200+ and its not fair and range should be the same.What false information? You mean is that what you did when you posted a clip from december of 2018?As I see no value in arguing with someone so ignorant and so hell-bent that he's playing a bad spec I'm going to stop responding to you now.Just remember that there are always two sides of a coinIgnorance its when you have no clue about the class and post 6 months old clip and think its a solid proof, 100% all best/good mesmers playing domination because they dont know there is a better traitline to replace it! Come to a thread without knowing what its about, throw random "pls nerf it because my main is nerfed"
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Rofl the amount of post to answer in 24H...

@bravan.3876 said:

It's a
MONTAGE
ROFL.If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking.You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class.Hmm so :1) how about you ask him ? Because I already did it.2) Who is contradicting every argument I have with a : "1 player on the entire game did it on a
montage
."3) What my skill level have to do here ? Btw I face every day leg to plat3 players so even If I'm the worst mesmer here, it seems there is worst.

I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disableI didn't agree as long as I didn't see this trait in high level. And for a GM it's way less "passive" than most other class who can do the same damage in aoe with classic rotation.

@shadowpass.4236 said :Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal.@bravan.3876 said :I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stopHere I am : player who use keyskill with no security are bad. Particulary on heal. Watch stream, 80% of top players at least LoS during heal cast.

Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.Steal is a 1200 range instant interrupt with other kisscool effects who is fine but no MoD ?@bravan.3876 said :The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions).Yeah, you are the white sheep, we are devils extremists. Thanks for the thread manipulation try.I trust what I see and for the moment I never see a mesmer using power block in plat3/leg MU since ... very long time.And key skill like FB rez signet will always be covered if you didn't put come CC pressure before.AndIt really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies.Come on, it's you who can't be conviced with the tons of arguments whil having only 1 player who did a montage with a build "for fun" (<= his words) as argumentation.Stop making sentence like if you know everything please and encapsulate thoses who disagree on "extremists" side while sitting you as the good guy on the middle side, we aren't in politics.

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.Totally agree.

  1. Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.Yeah, rev shouldn't be able to jiro breakstunt while hard cc'd/immobilize, thief should teleport/condiclear while immobilized, holo shouldn't be under 80% stab uptime on certains builds, most professions shouldn't have better vigor uptime than mesmers etc etc.
  2. Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.The concept on mantra is strong instant effect with hudge casttime counter part.
  3. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
  4. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:
  5. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  6. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  7. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  8. - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s durationNow compare them to the mesmer's traits:
  9. - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
  10. - 100% chance on HIT, 3s durationYeah, nice try so :Pistol duellist and sword MH should apply condition baseline like most other class weapon (You know the zerk gard and holo who make first damage burn during a fight for example or dps thief with passive poison application etc.).And check the @mortrialus.3062 calculation to get an idea of how op (or not) certains bursts are.
  11. Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.Buff drasticly the auto then because scepter general output is really low.
  12. Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.
    • Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldown
    • Mantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldownActually never used...
    • Mantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully chargingPeople will just switch back to no lock builds, didn't care.
    • Mantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldownDidn't mind.
    • Mantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per chargeRarely used ...
  13. Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.Agree it's better to just have a condiclear trait.

@mortrialus.3062 said:The condition damage aspect ignores toughnessActually toughness isn't really usefull even against direct damage build :p

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:As you can see in
this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.Yeah so for the explanation : players just didn't get used to see lock mesmers and didn't build against it.I can ensure you that once they wake up, it will have the same utility as it has thoses past years.For example take a scrapper with some reflects (and regular stab). He will easy perma cap the point as the build in mAt use 80% projectile attacks to put pressure.Take a SB with and adapted build (more condiclear, reflects on block.) same results. etc.The only thing that make ritu carry his team in the mAt is the ennemy team thinking they can kill a defensive lock build so they lose time Xv1 ing him. (ofc he play well but there weren't some counter build in front.)Can't wait for suiss tournament to highlight the adaptations between matchs.

@praqtos.9035 said :Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@praqtos.9035 said :Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.Even brain damaged people can successfuly play this two builds. I wouldnt care less if they delete it entirely so noobs cant just spam interrupts to lock you in place for eternity.The same goes for improvisation, daggerstorm,unblockable warrior dodge,rampage and the list goes on.

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@viquing.8254 said:Rofl the amount of post to answer in 24H...

It's a
MONTAGE
ROFL.If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking.You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class.Hmm so :1) how about you ask him ? Because I already did it.2) Who is contradicting every argument I have with a : "1 player on the entire game did it on a
montage
."3) What my skill level have to do here ? Btw I face every day leg to plat3 players so even If I'm the worst mesmer here, it seems there is worst.

I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disableI didn't agree as long as I didn't see this trait in high level. And for a GM it's way less "passive" than most other class who can do the same damage in aoe with classic rotation.

@shadowpass.4236 said :Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal.@bravan.3876 said :I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stopHere I am : player who use keyskill with no security are bad. Particulary on heal. Watch stream, 80% of top players at last LoS during heal cast.

Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.Steal is a 1200 range instant interrupt with other kisscool effects who is fine but no MoD ?@bravan.3876 said :The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions). You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.Yeah, you are the white sheep, we are devils extremists. Thanks for the thread manipulation try.I trust what I see and for the moment I never see a mesmer using power block in plat3/leg MU since ... very long time.And key skill like FB rez signet will always be covered if you didn't put come CC pressure before.AndIt really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies.Come on, it's you who can't be conviced with the tons of arguments whil having only 1 player who did a montage with a build "for fun" (<= his words) as argumentation.Stop making sentence like if you know everything please and encapsulate thoses who disagree on "extremists" side while sitting you as the good guy on the middle side, we aren't in politics.

  1. Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.Yeah, rev shouldn't be able to jiro breakstunt while hard cc'd/immobilize, thief should teleport/condiclear while immobilized, holo shouldn't be under 80% stab uptime on certains builds, most professions shouldn't have better vigor uptime than mesmers etc etc.
  2. Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.The concept on mantra are strong instant effect with hudge casttime counter part.
  3. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
  4. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:
  5. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  6. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  7. - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
  8. - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s duration

Now compare them to the mesmer's traits:
  1. - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
  2. - 100% chance on HIT, 3s durationYeah, nice try so :Pistol duellist and sword MH should apply condition baseline like most other class weapon (You know the zerk gard and holo who make first damage burn during a fight for example or dps thief with passive poison application etc.).And check the @mortrialus.3062 calculation to get an idea of how op (or not) certains bursts are.
  3. Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.Buff drasticly the auto then because scepter general output is really low.
  4. Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.
    • Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldownActually never used...
    • Mantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully chargingPeople will just switch back to no lock builds, didn't care.
    • Mantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldownDidn't mind.
    • Mantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per chargeRarely used ...
    • Mantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldownNever used ...
  5. Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.Agree it's better to just have a condiclear trait.

@mortrialus.3062 said:The condition damage aspect ignores toughnessActually toughness isn't really usefull even against direct damage build :p

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:As you can see in
this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.Yeah so for the explanation : players just didn't get used to see lock mesmers and didn't build against it.I can ensure you that once they wake up, it will have the same utility as it has thoses past years.For example take a scrapper with some reflects (and regular stab). He will easy perma cap the point as the build in mAt use 80% projectile attacks to put pressure.Take a SB with and adapted build (more condiclear, reflects on block.) same results. etc.The only thing that make ritu carry his team in the mAt is the ennemy team thinking they can kill a defensive lock build so they lose time Xv1 ing him. (ofc he play well but there weren't some counter build in front.)Can't wait for suiss tournament to highlight the adaptations between matchs.

@"praqtos.9035" said :Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.

No, until now you only say traits/skills don't need nerf and other stuff is underpowered/useless/ has no reward because you say so and that you don't know Powermesmers in Top100 using it is your only argument (you don't know one doesn't even mean there is none. And i am very sure you are wrong, but i will ask him, i give you a private message after he answered, i don't think that needs to be in this thread). And even in case there would be none it doesn't prove that it is unplayable/ useless, it just means there is easier/ stronger stuff you can play that's why ppl who "tryhard" don't play it.

There is no valid argument based on facts and logic from you i remember, just defiant disagrees based on your subjective view. Or better, the few arguments not only subjective, defiant phrases you had, were obviously wrong. Example: Ofc good player cover their important skills way better but the mesmer himself can counter that too. So it is clearly not impossible to interrupt big skills on good player, it is just harder than vs bad player.I meanwhile wrote tons of arguments really explaining why i think what i think. You can convince me that i am wrong when you have one logical argument based on facts, not obviously or logically wrong and not only extremely subjective "i say so that's why it is so"- phrases.

The montage was never an argument for my balance suggestions it was only an argument to tell you that it is wrong when you say it is unplayable or useless in high rankes when at least one Mesmer does play it in P3/Leg. One counterexample here is enough to prove your pretty absolute statement wrong.

With Lost Time i agreed to shadowpass not to you.

Your skill lvl was not an argument to the topic it was an argument on how good or bad you can read the skill lvl of ppl by only watching montages. I never said you are the worst mesmer in the game, i only said that you are clearly worse than top player and that would be easy to see even in a 10 mins montage cherry picked from a whole year of playing. It wasn't an insult, please don't get mad or hurt about it. Most player are not on top lvl, me neither.

For now i am out of that thread, i said everything i had to say to Powermesmer and Rev balanced several times already. Until now none of you (viquing, shadowpass), who i would put on the both extreme sides of the opinion-scale had an argument could convince me until now but i have no problem to change my mind in case some appear. I don't care for any class in particular, i just want a less noobfriendly, less braindead meta for all classes without nerfing skillbased builds out of viability or buff them into noobfriendly state, so the game distinguishes between good and bad players way more again.

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@bravan.3876

I don't see how any of the changes I proposed are unreasonable. If you or anyone else disagrees, feel free to tell me why with VALID reasons (ie. math). For example, someone argued that Mantra of Recovery is never used but it has 2-4x more effective healing per second than nearly every other healing skill in the game with its current cooldown. Mathematically, increasing the cooldown to 20 seconds would put it in line with other healing skills.

For the record, I'm all for skill-based play. I don't care if I got out-skilled and died but if I feel like I'm fighting against the build rather than the player I'm going to have an issue with it REGARDLESS of whether I win or lose the fight.

I thought boonbeast was stupid and should've been nerfed. I dislike Sic Em gimmick builds. D/D condi dodge spam thief was annoying. Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd unlike every other class is lame and mesmer mantras have ridiculously strong effects on extremely low cooldowns.

I play every class at a relatively high level. I understand how each of them play, their strengths, and their weaknesses. Thus, when I propose nerfs/buffs I always back up my suggestions with math or examples.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@bravan.3876

I don't see how any of the changes I proposed are unreasonable. If you or anyone else disagrees, feel free to tell me why with VALID reasons (ie. math). For example, someone argued that Mantra of Recovery is never used but it has 2-4x more effective healing per second than nearly every other healing skill in the game with its current cooldown. Mathematically, increasing the cooldown to 20 seconds would put it in line with other healing skills.

For the record, I'm all for skill-based play. I don't care if I got out-skilled and died but if I feel like I'm fighting against the build rather than the player I'm going to have an issue with it REGARDLESS of whether I win or lose the fight.

I thought boonbeast was stupid and should've been nerfed. I dislike Sic Em gimmick builds. D/D condi dodge spam thief was annoying. Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd unlike every other class is lame and mesmer mantras have ridiculously strong effects on extremely low cooldowns.

I play every class at a relatively high level. I understand how each of them play, their strengths, and their weaknesses. Thus, when I propose nerfs/buffs I always back up my suggestions with math or examples.

Scroll up a bit or check your notifications. I just made a pretty long explanation (by @ your name) why i think a cd increase to 20+secs is too long for Mantra of Distraction and why i think it is one of the most skillbased, reactive/ Interactive utilties mesmer has. I compared it to Signet of Midnight to make my thoughts clear. I also gave you definitions i think are valid to distinguish between a Mantramesmer (to call it Mantra Mesmer its prime nature should be to use/ spam MantrasSSS, plural) and an Interruptmesmer with only using one Mantra and prime nature of reactively interrupting big skills what the one Mantra (as a tool to interrupt) is used for aside from other skills. I agreed to Lost Time nerfs because it makes Mantra of Distraction just as braindead spammable as Mantra of Pain and i agreed to a reduced cd refresh from Mantra on f3. Even tho in the current state of the game i don't think any of the Mantra of Distraction nerfs are needed before all meta stuff get nerfed too.

Wasn't me saying anything to the other Mantras, i clearly said i don't know them good enough because i never saw them getting used, i have no opinion on them i could back up.

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@"bravan.3876"

I get that MoD is skill-based and reactive but I don't think it justifies how low of a cooldown it has.

Look at Distracting Dagger on thief and compare it to Power Lock.

Distracting Dagger:

  1. Dazes for .25 seconds
  2. 900 range
  3. 20 second cooldown
  4. Can't be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

Power Lock:

  1. Dazes for 1.5 seconds
  2. 1200 range
  3. 12 second cooldown
  4. Can be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

Both of these utilities have secondary effects and require the player to have good timing in order to land the interrupts. However, Mantra of Distraction's Power Lock is a straight upgrade to Distracting Dagger in every way. It can also achieve the same skill recharge increase on interrupt by taking Power Block in Domination (amongst other interrupt/cc-based trait synergies).

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"bravan.3876"

I get that MoD is skill-based and reactive but I don't think it justifies how low of a cooldown it has.

Look at Distracting Dagger on thief and compare it to Power Lock.

Distracting Dagger:

  1. Dazes for .25 seconds
  2. 900 range
  3. 20 second cooldown
  4. Can't be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

Power Lock:

  1. Dazes for 1.5 seconds
  2. 1200 range
  3. 12 second cooldown
  4. Can be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

Both of these utilities have secondary effects and require the player to have good timing in order to land the interrupts. However, Mantra of Distraction's Power Lock is a straight upgrade to Distracting Dagger in every way. It can also achieve the same skill recharge increase on interrupt by taking Power Block in Domination (amongst other interrupt/cc-based trait synergies).

I don't think that it always makes sense to compare skills from different classes like that. Thief has a different class mechanic and you would need to compare the whole build this skill is used with, with the build a mesmer has during using Mantra of Distraction. I also already mentioned that Powermesmer from its whole mechanic is way more based on comboing stuff. Also this skill has no recharge leaving the thief vulnerable for more than a second or requires to use other defensive skills to cover the recharge. I also doubt that Anets intention was to give Daredevil an interruptfocused build with that skill. If yes they failed, there is a reason this utility didnt get used for this purpose ever, actually wasn't used at all except of some meme builds with traits pushing physikal skills, in that meme build all utilityslots were stacked with physical skills to get the trait rewards, never for an interrupt based build. Also this skill has 3 instead 2 charges and only 1 second cd in between uses, in fact a thief almost can use it more often than the mesmer has Mantra of Distraction. Sometimes Anet balance makes sense obviously they think a thief would be too op with instant interrupt skills can be used that often and can be combined with other skills while having steal already for that.

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@bravan.3876

Personally, I believe if a skill is considered balanced on one class, it should be balanced on all classes.

For example:

  1. Give a warrior's Fast Hands to any other class and there's no issue.
  2. Give a mirage's ability to dodge while CC'd to any other class and all of a sudden you break every spec in the game because cc is now rendered useless.
  3. How fun would it be if a ranger could Maul from stealth whilst simultaneously casting Power Lock and Power Spike? Horrible.
  4. What about a thief Backstabbing whilst casting PL and PS? Also horrible.
  5. But give Bull's Charge to any class and it would be fine.
  6. Giving other classes Sic Em? Gimmicky, but unhealthy.
  7. etc. etc.

Changing Power Lock to function similarly to Head Shot would still allow for skill-based interrupt gameplay. A 24 second cooldown on Mantra of Distraction is still considered short compared to the cooldowns of nearly every other utility skill in the game. You'd still be able to use it multiple times in a single fight.

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No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of an over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

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@bravan.3876 said:No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

Oh man, if they give shadow step to warriors, I am going to have a new main.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

But that was exactly what i said, on current warrior specs it ofc would be op and not fitting (means breaking) class mechanic

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

But that was exactly what i said, on current warrior specs it ofc would be op and not fitting (means breaking) class mechanic

It might not fit the class but warriors having shadowstep and stealth definitely wouldn't be overpowered. It would be similar to how portal was implemented on scourges.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

But that was exactly what i said, on current warrior specs it ofc would be op and not fitting (means breaking) class mechanic

It might not fit the class but warriors having shadowstep and stealth definitely wouldn't be overpowered. It would be similar to how portal was implemented on scourges.

Ofc current Shadowstep or Stealth would be op on current Warriors. 2 secs stun cast skill or bullscharge with quickness carried follow up dmg coverd by stealth? Berserker casting signet for full f1 power and casting 15k aoe gs f1 Arc Divider out of stealth? Sure you would think having a Mesmer only dazing instant form max range instead would be pure heaven...

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

But that was exactly what i said, on current warrior specs it ofc would be op and not fitting (means breaking) class mechanic

It might not fit the class but warriors having shadowstep and stealth definitely wouldn't be overpowered. It would be similar to how portal was implemented on scourges.

Ofc current Shadowstep or Stealth would be op on current Warriors. 2 secs stun cast skill or bullscharge with quickness carried follow up dmg coverd by stealth? Berserker casting signet for full f1 power and casting 15k aoe gs f1 Arc Divider out of stealth? Sure you would think having a Mesmer only dazing instant form max range instead would be pure heaven...

I really wouldn't have an issue with it. Warriors can get stealthed by a multitude of classes. Running directly away from their position with swiftness/super speed is usually enough to avoid the damage completely or just dodge somewhere in the middle of the stealth.

As for Arc Divider, it's not an instant one-shot. It gives you more than enough time to react during the channel.

A stealthed killshot would be annoying though. I honestly think removing berserker amulet from PvP would solve a lot of the issues.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:I really wouldn't have an issue with it. Warriors can get stealthed by a multitude of classes. Running directly away from their position with swiftness/super speed is usually enough to avoid the damage completely or just dodge somewhere in the middle of the stealth.

As for Arc Divider, it's not an instant one-shot. It gives you more than enough time to react during the channel.

A stealthed killshot would be annoying though. I honestly think removing berserker amulet from PvP would solve a lot of the issues.

Removing an amulet never really solves anything, heal tempest with cleric amulet wasn't as busted as the current firebrand with mender.

I would gladly accept stealth or teleport warrior, especially berserker. I would just stealth arc divider or rifle f1 everyone I see or rival thieves in mobility with shadowstep spellbreaker.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:If there needs to be more proof about the cluelessness...

Yeah case closed i guess. That is why i said i am out here, it leads to nowhere. I mean a glass power shatter can get high sustain when running with a FB, in the same logic a Warrior can be stealthed by teammates, does that now in the same way mean it would be fine to give a berserker Mesmer only using dmg traitlines the sustain of a sword menders Weaver? I dunno maybe it is just me, but my logic will bury itself when reading such arguments. Pardon me i don't get convinced must be me being stubborn like crazy...

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

You know at some point some classes can't even be cc'd, just saying, your focus on mesmer is just too much.

As for removing berserk amulet, I play wvw and the issue is still the same for mesmer in spvp, you run out of cds is what makes us choose berserk, why would we pick marauder? sure if i pick marauder i can take more hits here and there, but at some point, no cds means sitting duck taking whatever they wanna do to you, and that was created MOSTLY by the recent nerfs, most of them the ones started with this sentence "we want mirage to excel in longer fights", we can't stay long in combat, the longer we stay we will find ourselves without jaunt, without blink, without f4, without whatever other skills you are using, without heal.

The more you play mesmer, specially mirage you will notice that it is better to go berserk, I have not played chrono for long time because i like mirage's style, but if you keep playing mirage you will find that berserk is going to give you way better results than marauder because of the recent nerfs that came a long with that lovely patch, berserk or marauder, your playstyle wouldn't change, what you need to dodge you will have to dodge with both stats, the only difference is with berserk your damage is higher, so you have chance of getting the target faster, with marauder you play the same and you survive, but you have no cds so you die. (except some cases like the stealth stabby thieves) because those actually kill you with 1 hit.

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