How effective is Toughness stat in WvW builds?

[Knighthonor.4061]

I was looking on Metabattle for builds for the class I am using and well Berserker is Superior. My current gear is Power, Toughness, Vitality combo, and well doesnt seem that effective to me. It has me curious how impactful is the toughness stat compared to stacking Precision and Ferocity

[RisenHowl.2419]

Toughness is less useful the more -damage modifiers you have, so the better your group is the less useful toughness will be.

If you're roaming it's better to be offensive

[Infusion.7149]

There's diminishing returns after 2600 or so. If you're looking for an optimal setup it's usually one where you don't swing to an extreme of all damage or all defense , due to the stat totals of sets such as marauder or celestial.

[XECOR.2814]

What class are you playing. Depends on that too.

[XenesisII.1540]

Damage has gone up a lot since the core days, more power, more crit chance, more crit damage, more boons, more buffs, faster attacks. Nothing has changed much with defense stats like toughness or vitality since. Defense comes down to your class and spec, some can get away without using too much defense stats some can't, like the classes that use stealth or evades or blocks or immune a lot and mostly roaming you can push your offense stats to the max, if you're tanking front line in zergs you'll want more toughness and vitality.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

Also depends on what stats your account has available. Like, you mention Soldier and Berserker gear, so, is this a core account with core specs?

If so, a little toughness and Vitality aren't a bad idea no matter the profession you're running, because you'll likely be facing enemies that have more attribute options available to them through HOT and POF gear.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:I was looking on Metabattle for builds for the class I am using and well Berserker is Superior. My current gear is Power, Toughness, Vitality combo, and well doesn't seem that effective to me. It has me curious how impactful is the toughness stat compared to stacking Precision and Ferocity

Some toughness and Vit is essential if you are front line. It also keeps you from getting globalled by bursty power specs when you are roaming.Doubling down and decking out in full Soldiers? Wouldn't recommend it. Swap out a few pieces for some damage gear.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

It depends on what you're wanting to do. If you're trying to bunker, stacking alot of Toughness without Healing Power is useless. On the other hand Vitality gives you a huge buffer against conditions, which prolongs the fight but doesn't allow recovery.

There's multiple types of tanking in GW2:

• Normalise tanking and damage (medium health, medium armor, maybe some healing), seen on most builds that are general-purpose roaming builds, common with Celestial gear, can be simulated with mixes (Knight+Valk, etc.).
• Tank moderately for a long time (low health, high armor, high healing, Protection etc.), often used for point capture.
• Tank incredibly for a short time (works best on Warrior or Necro, generally stack max health with Sentinel or such), common in WvW because it allows to survive zerg AoE and condition spam, not seen much in PvE or PvP due to low damage.
• Tank permanently (only health, armor, and healing e.g Nomads, no damage), for pure persistence (or annoyance, if you prefer), often worn by PvE and WvW Commanders who need to stand directly in hot zones without going down, as its rather disorienting for the group leader to be reviving at a waypoint only a few seconds into the battle.

The soft cap for armor is about 3000, but if you have -%damage (Protection, traits, etc.) then ~2400 is good enough. Your overall survivability is determined by something called your "effective health", which should usually be around 50 mil.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:I was looking on Metabattle for builds for the class I am using and well Berserker is Superior. My current gear is Power, Toughness, Vitality combo, and well doesnt seem that effective to me. It has me curious how impactful is the toughness stat compared to stacking Precision and FerocityYou can make your current build more effective by swapping all the trinkets with Berserker's. This will lower your defense to average levels, keep your Power maxed out and fill in your Precision and Ferocity. Plus, trinkets cost no transmutations to change.

You don't want your entire set to be Berserker's in WvW, you will die like a fly.

[Zephyra.4709]

They say the sweet spot is around 2500 armor? You can dmg reduction via food, protection boon, rev dwarf elite, certain traits dmg reduction + runes dmg reduction within x radius. I find mara stats far more worthwhile but all depends on class, too. Hope that helps.

[Justine.6351]

Yeah 2500 is fair, 2750 is good and 3000 is the higher end. Going over that is wasted stats. If you are under 2500 armor you should probably know how to play the game / not complain when a hammer rev does 15k CoRs to you.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

it does stuff.taking 30% less damage can be helpful.

[Jski.6180]

Classes with good base armor problems i see here. If you dont have high armor to start with you end up giving up to much dmg aimed effects to even get to that 2.5k or 2.6k. Its worst if we are talking about hp.

Boons are stronger for the most part and the counter of there boons are a much better counter effect to the high tank. If your going to take a hit think about what boons you are going to have or want to have on you. If you want to land a good hit think about how to deal with boons on your target.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:I was looking on Metabattle for builds for the class I am using and well Berserker is Superior. My current gear is Power, Toughness, Vitality combo, and well doesnt seem that effective to me. It has me curious how impactful is the toughness stat compared to stacking Precision and Ferocity

well the pvt thing is good if all you encounter is lag where skills don't work and all you got is 111. but that's not always the case now. so depending on your profession, you can choose to go all zerks. my team is all zerks = we're like paper builds. so ppl can sneaze at us, but we can down and kill you if you take us lightly. (except for our fbs who are minstrel.)

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

At least for roaming, there's no reason not to have a good amount of marauder gear these days as you're simply going to need more than the base health. I'd say 18k is a minimum really. Dura runes and cavalier rings are usually sufficient for toughness, assuming you have some protection uptime too. As someone said further up, 2600 is the ideal cap as everything past that suffers diminishing returns, is made up easily with % damage modifiers, and is likely to adversely affect your damage.

[Dawdler.8521]

It's all really, really relative and varies vildly from fight to fight. So there is no correct answer to this question.

Most of all, it depends on how you run.

First, build and class of course matters. Power doesnt have as much room for toughness as condi have, except on certain classes (an example would be the necro getting 50% crit chance from trait, can skimp on precision). Condi also lends itself naturally to sustain builds as it literally is sustain the enemy to death. If you want the middle ground, you can always go celestial on any class and hope for the best. PVT is honestly a bad combo unless you're like a zerg spellbreaker or something.

If it's solo, then encounters will be often be outmanned. While many will say "huehuehue I'm so leet I go 1v3 on marauder and win every fight, here's my heavily cut youtube clip of awesome outmanned fights to prove it!" then that's generally only viable against bad enemies or perfect counter builds. Good builds and good players facing off against each other should be able to bring each other to at least 50% hp - 1v2 in that situation is usually a loss. Toughness is a buffer that make you able to sustain one of them better and if you can down one you have that much higher chance at winning. Not saying you should run toughness but it can definetly help.

On the other hand, if you run in a group then that toughness might be completely wasted. Maybe you could have gotten that enemy down in a 5v5 that would have turned the fight if you only had a little more damage, while you where in no danger. Who knows. You never do. Most organized small groups nowadays is pure zerg metas - they bring like 1-2 dps for every 5 members (rev/holo/sb). For random groups, it's all about how and when you engage rather than your sustain. But like above, toughness can help.

Then of course there are those moments when you have the exact correct amount of toughness, in relation to the solo point made above (that's mostly trailblazer so heavy armor). Below I did survive the shatter burst on pretty much toughness and vitality alone... then again if the spellbreaker would have been a marauder... you know.

Addition: Most people also run power today so a little boost in toughness is "generally" usefull... condi punches straight through toughness so fighting a build like mine above your toughness would be fairly useless. But that's when you find a p/p scrapper once in a blue moon hiding under some rock on DBL of course. The daily encounters is hammer healers and in contrast only power, power and more power work on them, so your toughness is useless in another way.

[enkidu.5937]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:I was looking on Metabattle for builds for the class I am using and well Berserker is Superior. My current gear is Power, Toughness, Vitality combo, and well doesnt seem that effective to me. It has me curious how impactful is the toughness stat compared to stacking Precision and FerocityPower usually dominates over condi damage these days. Doesn't mean that Toughness has a value, since insane power damage creep has blown the scale, and your best bet to survive is either (in small scale roaming) hard sustain (invulns, blocks, dodges) to not even get hit, or (in large scale group fights) a ton of soft sustain support from your group (heal, protection, dwarf rite, barrier).

And above all, its good positioning / repositioning / mobility that keeps you alive. Thoughness can help a lot to learn these things from the start, since it helps to stay alive and thus to learn about fights. But it doesnt really help to win fights.

Nothing wrong with a from-time to time WvW player that roams with Dire (e. g. as Mirage) or pug-zergs with Soldier (e. g. as bubble bot).

PS: usually, if you got into your class, you'd start to swap out Toughness first, and later a bit of vitality and replace it with power damage stats (save group support builds ofc).

[Clownmug.8357]

Toughness is probably the most useless stat these days. Nothing beats completely negating damage via blocks, evades, teleports, stealth, or invulnerability. The next best thing would be constant healing and/or barrier application. But none of that even matters if you can just blow up an opponent before they have a chance to attack you.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:It's all really, really relative and varies vildly from fight to fight. So there is no correct answer to this question.

Most of all, it depends on how you run.

First, build and class of course matters. Power doesnt have as much room for toughness as condi have, except on certain classes (an example would be the necro getting 50% crit chance from trait, can skimp on precision). Condi also lends itself naturally to sustain builds as it literally is sustain the enemy to death. If you want the middle ground, you can always go celestial on any class and hope for the best. PVT is honestly a bad combo unless you're like a zerg spellbreaker or something.

If it's solo, then encounters will be often be outmanned. While many will say "huehuehue I'm so leet I go 1v3 on marauder and win every fight, here's my heavily cut youtube clip of awesome outmanned fights to prove it!" then that's generally only viable against bad enemies or perfect counter builds. Good builds and good players facing off against each other should be able to bring each other to at least 50% hp - 1v2 in that situation is usually a loss. Toughness is a buffer that make you able to sustain one of them better and if you can down one you have that much higher chance at winning. Not saying you should run toughness but it can definetly help.

On the other hand, if you run in a group then that toughness might be completely wasted. Maybe you could have gotten that enemy down in a 5v5 that would have turned the fight if you only had a little more damage, while you where in no danger. Who knows. You never do. Most organized small groups nowadays is pure zerg metas - they bring like 1-2 dps for every 5 members (rev/holo/sb). For random groups, it's all about how and when you engage rather than your sustain. But like above, toughness can help.

Then of course there are those moments when you have the exact correct amount of toughness, in relation to the solo point made above (that's mostly trailblazer so heavy armor). Below I did survive the shatter burst on pretty much toughness and vitality alone... then again if the spellbreaker would have been a marauder... you know.

Addition: Most people also run power today so a little boost in toughness is "generally" usefull... condi punches straight through toughness so fighting a build like mine above your toughness would be fairly useless. But that's when you find a p/p scrapper once in a blue moon hiding under some rock on DBL of course. The daily encounters is hammer healers and in contrast only power, power and more power work on them, so your toughness is useless in another way.

^This guy knows what he’s talking about..

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Clownmug.8357 said:Nothing beats completely negating damage via blocks, evades, teleports, stealth, or invulnerability..and for everything else, there's~~ Mastercard~~ dodge.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Toughness....

Can't live with it.

Can't live without it.

Basically it's taken because you don't have much else to take. And yea, PTV gear is most likely outdated; depends on your class to decide what to do.

[TheGrimm.5624]

It's all about your playstyle, build, role, and what you are comfortable with. Are you looking for zerg play, havoc, solo. If solo are looking for 1v1, 1v3 1vX. Are you planning on engaging in zerg vs zerg though you aren't on tag. Are you looking to ninja a keep? Key is gear to where you are effective and adjust if you are not effective in the build you are running. Personally my internet on the weekend is terribad so I have to plan on getting hit a lot so I gear for that. Also means I might jump a group solo looking to try and drop some squishies, especially when outnumbered since there is nothing to lose. So people should go with what works for them. As a WvW player in another game once said. Dead peeps do no deeps. Plus running tankier it's always funny to see a glass cannon burn their rotation and you are just standing there and watch them start to backpedal. A good time was had by all. Good hunting!

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the idea that armor has diminishing returns or that + or - damage mods make it irrelevant is a lie lol. ofc it does depend on your class and build, and what you're actually doing, but from a ttk standpoint it does actually help you survive longer (no, assuming perfect conditions for buff uptime is not realistic). unless you're up against low cd mega burst like slb or teef.

[Justine.6351]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the idea that armor has diminishing returns or that + or - damage mods make it irrelevant is a lie lol. ofc it does depend on your class and build, and what you're actually doing, but from a ttk standpoint it does actually help you survive longer (no, assuming perfect conditions for buff uptime is not realistic). unless you're up against low cd mega burst like slb or teef.

I'm no mathematician but I'm fairly certain that when increasing a value more and more becomes less and less efficient is the essence of diminishing returns. And so, the most important amount of toughness you can add to a build will be the first ~250. At which point -10% food, -33% protection -X% traits become the more realistic way to increase damage reduction to save stat points for other things you may want. It's all about balancing stat points with % modifiers overall in your build.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the idea that armor has diminishing returns or that + or - damage mods make it irrelevant is a lie lol. ofc it does depend on your class and build, and what you're actually doing, but from a ttk standpoint it does actually help you survive longer (no, assuming perfect conditions for buff uptime is not realistic). unless you're up against low cd mega burst like slb or teef.

I'm no mathematician but I'm fairly certain that when increasing a value more and more becomes less and less efficient is the essence of diminishing returns. And so, the most important amount of toughness you can add to a build will be the first ~250. At which point -10% food, -33% protection -X% traits become the more realistic way to increase damage reduction to save stat points for other things you may want. It's all about balancing stat points with % modifiers overall in your build.

that's true strictly math wise. the probability of getting caught with out those mods up tho are pretty good vs non potato farmers. also a lot of builds don't have damage reduction mods.

[Justine.6351]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the idea that armor has diminishing returns or that + or - damage mods make it irrelevant is a lie lol. ofc it does depend on your class and build, and what you're actually doing, but from a ttk standpoint it does actually help you survive longer (no, assuming perfect conditions for buff uptime is not realistic). unless you're up against low cd mega burst like slb or teef.

I'm no mathematician but I'm fairly certain that when increasing a value more and more becomes less and less efficient is the essence of diminishing returns. And so, the most important amount of toughness you can add to a build will be the first ~250. At which point -10% food, -33% protection -X% traits become the more realistic way to increase damage reduction to save stat points for other things you may want. It's all about balancing stat points with % modifiers overall in your build.

the probability of getting caught with out those mods up tho are pretty good vs non potato farmers.

Yeah but if they have at least 3 hits their mod increases flat rate probability by a factor of 4.2 against most players unless they forget to prenup.