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Can dagger get a flat 15-20% dmg buff please?


Shiyo.3578

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@otto.5684 said:The damage for dagger is not okay. It is outdpsed by sword in every situation. And all it does is damage.

totally agree with you, the sword can heal better than dagger, just the fact that riptide is aoe waterfield that can be blasted for extra healing it shades dagger in terms of suvival.

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I'm wondering how sword and dagger are supposed to maintain separate identities if they get buffed to have the same damage. For other classes it isn't as much of an issue to have similar damage, since the weapons have different utilities to them. But Ele... not so much. Just to compare:

In Fire:Dagger 1: Direct DamageSword 1: Direct Damage, BurnDagger 2: Direct Damage, Burn, Cone attackSword 2: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement SkillDagger 3: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement SkillSword 3: Direct Damage, Burn

Yeah, not much difference there. There's a few other weird tidbits between the weapons, but basically they do the same thing. Except sword does it better.

If we want to buff dagger main-hand, we'd need to differentiate the weapons more.. And no, making one condi is not the solution, since all that will do is wreck everyone's builds. There are two ways I can think of changing the weapons that won't ruin everyone's build:

(1): Make one of the weapons self-buffing (might, fury, protection, etc)(2): Make one of the weapons debuffing/disabling (weakness, cripple, vulnerability, etc).

These aren't mutually exclusive, either. If anything, dagger should give boons, so it can help out teammtes on tempest, while the sword should inflict more debuffing and disabling conditions.

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm wondering how sword and dagger are supposed to maintain separate identities if they get buffed to have the same damage. For other classes it isn't as much of an issue to have similar damage, since the weapons have different utilities to them. But Ele... not so much. Just to compare:

You are looking at the wrong thing.Ele weapon identities are based on how they act, not what they do.Dagger MH is fast-paced PBAoE (point-blank area of effect attacks), most attacks from dagger MH hit multiple targets in a small area around you (or in a cone, etc)Sword is melee cleave, hitting just a few targets (3) in melee cleave range.

What weapons do (condi, power, cc, heal, etc) is based on attunements and traits.Air is CC and burst crits, with traits providing extra buffs (fury, swiftness, superspeed) and extra crit dmg for short periods of time (burst)Fire is sustained dmg, with traits giving might and extended burn applicationEarth is sustained defense, with traits providing dmg reduction, protection, stability and some sustained dmg from bleedsWater is sustain and cleanse, with traits providing heals and cleanses

The weapon skills do need some work but not in adding buffs. The buffs should come from synergies in the traitlines! the core traitlines!.Adding more stuff to weapon skills will only make current builds more powerfull and add no variety to builds for any game-mode.Adding synergy in traitlines would improve build diversity and create more viable builds.Example:

  • You can add torment to earth dagger skill 2. This will make it better but will in no way open new possible gameplay.
  • You can add a trait in earth traitline that makes you apply torment when you bleed a foe that is crippled or immobilized. With this you create a nice combo with dagger MH 3-2 and auto-attacks, since the auto quickly apply bleeds and the skill 3 and 2 cripples and immob.
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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm wondering how sword and dagger are supposed to maintain separate identities if they get buffed to have the same damage. For other classes it isn't as much of an issue to have similar damage, since the weapons have different utilities to them. But Ele... not so much. Just to compare:

In Fire:Dagger 1: Direct DamageSword 1: Direct Damage, BurnDagger 2: Direct Damage, Burn, Cone attackSword 2: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement SkillDagger 3: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement SkillSword 3: Direct Damage, Burn

Yeah, not much difference there. There's a few other weird tidbits between the weapons, but basically they do the same thing. Except sword does it better.

If we want to buff dagger main-hand, we'd need to differentiate the weapons more.. And no, making one condi is not the solution, since all that will do is wreck everyone's builds. There are two ways I can think of changing the weapons that won't ruin everyone's build:

(1): Make one of the weapons self-buffing (might, fury, protection, etc)(2): Make one of the weapons debuffing/disabling (weakness, cripple, vulnerability, etc).

These aren't mutually exclusive, either. If anything, dagger should give boons, so it can help out teammtes on tempest, while the sword should inflict more debuffing and disabling conditions.

Easy sword is a 1-3 target wepon dagger is an 5 target wepon. That how you fix every thing about dagger make all of the skills 5 target base even the auras.

Make all sword skill 1-3 target and make all skills on dagger 5 target.

As well as remove all dmg only effects. Your using fire it should burn.

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@"lLobo.7960" said:You are looking at the wrong thing.Ele weapon identities are based on how they act, not what they do.Dagger MH is fast-paced PBAoE (point-blank area of effect attacks), most attacks from dagger MH hit multiple targets in a small area around you (or in a cone, etc)Sword is melee cleave, hitting just a few targets (3) in melee cleave range.

What weapons do (condi, power, cc, heal, etc) is based on attunements and traits.Air is CC and burst crits, with traits providing extra buffs (fury, swiftness, superspeed) and extra crit dmg for short periods of time (burst)Fire is sustained dmg, with traits giving might and extended burn applicationEarth is sustained defense, with traits providing dmg reduction, protection, stability and some sustained dmg from bleedsWater is sustain and cleanse, with traits providing heals and cleanses

The weapon skills do need some work but not in adding buffs. The buffs should come from synergies in the traitlines! the core traitlines!.Adding more stuff to weapon skills will only make current builds more powerfull and add no variety to builds for any game-mode.Adding synergy in traitlines would improve build diversity and create more viable builds.Example:

  • You can add torment to earth dagger skill 2. This will make it better but will in no way open new possible gameplay.
  • You can add a trait in earth traitline that makes you apply torment when you bleed a foe that is crippled or immobilized. With this you create a nice combo with dagger MH 3-2 and auto-attacks, since the auto quickly apply bleeds and the skill 3 and 2 cripples and immob.

Your contentions don't make sense.

First, what a weapon does and how a weapon acts is the same thing.Second, "doing damage" and "doing damage in a slightly different shape" is a pretty meaningless distinction. It doesn't show up in benchmarks, and has almost no tactical value in PVE or PVP. It's only the big shapes that mean anything, and 240 range vs. 130 isn't big enough.

Third, I don't need a primer on how attunements work.Fourth, adjusting weapons to be better balanced with each other adds variety to builds. The main thing keeping weapons from use is viability. The more viable weapons you have, the more viable builds you have.

Fifth, adding traits isn't going to bridge the gap between the two melee weapons while making each one distinct, unless you specifically make traits to do that. In which case, build variety is decreased due to the necessity of having that trait. Also in this case, it begs the question as to why the trait isn't baseline, opening up more buildcraft.

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Not that I want to be mean but dagger and sword having the same "identity" isn't an issue at all since sword is restricted to weaver while you can use dagger with any specialization. The only thing that is really an issue is that dagger is "suppressed" by weaver's dual attunment mechanic due to poor choice of dual skill effects replacing "defensive" options.

The dagger's dual skills on weaver make dagger build glass canon without the output of a glass canon, while sword retain a certain level of defense with better output.

That said, we are in this situation because initially players complained that sword needed to do more damage and these damage were just powercreeped to the point that sword now outdo dagger. If dagger see it's damage powercreeped to the point that they outdo sword and thus dagger become "meta", it's obvious that players will asked another layer of powercreep on the sword to make it "meta". In a word, this is a vicious circle in which the community will never be satisfied.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:First, what a weapon does and how a weapon acts is the same thing.It's not. A weapon (in GW2) and its skills does dmg, buffs, heals, blocks, move you, etc...How it does that (fast, instant, or channel... with a chain of skills or spammable attacks) and to how many targets and range is another thing.Scepter air auto attack does dmg to a single-target at a fast chained attack at medium range. Staff air auto attack does dmg to up to 3 targets (bouncing) at long range with a slow spammable attack, dagger air auto does dmg to up to 5 targets in a wide arc in front of you with fast spammable attacks. All 3 weapons do the same, just in a different way.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Second, "doing damage" and "doing damage in a slightly different shape" is a pretty meaningless distinction. It doesn't show up in benchmarks, and has almost no tactical value in PVE or PVP. It's only the big shapes that mean anything, and 240 range vs. 130 isn't big enough.

It makes a HUGE difference to tactical and (by balance) to benchmarks too. Why do you think staff got nerfed on its multi-hits AoE? Because the it hit multiple targets in a large area. Why do you think staff is used in WvW and PvE zergs? Because it hits multiple targets in an area, even if for lower dmg than sword. Why is tempest overloads better for PvE zerg farming than weaver sword dual skills? Area of Effect.Area, range, targets, shape... those things matter. And not only for tactics, for balance too.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Fifth, adding traits isn't going to bridge the gap between the two melee weapons while making each one distinct, unless you specifically make traits to do that. In which case, build variety is decreased due to the necessity of having that trait. Also in this case, it begs the question as to why the trait isn't baseline, opening up more buildcraft.If a weapon gives dmg, condition, buffs, and w/e it will be nerfed. By allowing the ele to specialize in its traitlines you create diversity. You can trait to deal more dmg or give boons, you can trait to be more bunker or more glass-canon. This is where the attunements and attunement lines shine, by giving the ele the opportunity to specialize and be high dps or high healer, or a mix and be a great side noder in PvP... The cost is the specialization... going full dps means you will bring nothing to the group but a high dps... The concept is great, the basis is there, the trait implementation is lacking in some fronts...

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@lLobo.7960 said:It's not. A weapon (in GW2) and its skills does dmg, buffs, heals, blocks, move you, etc...How it does that (fast, instant, or channel... with a chain of skills or spammable attacks) and to how many targets and range is another thing.Scepter air auto attack does dmg to a single-target at a fast chained attack at medium range. Staff air auto attack does dmg to up to 3 targets (bouncing) at long range with a slow spammable attack, dagger air auto does dmg to up to 5 targets in a wide arc in front of you with fast spammable attacks. All 3 weapons do the same, just in a different way.

All of that still sounds like what a weapon "does."

@lLobo.7960 said:It makes a HUGE difference to tactical and (by balance) to benchmarks too. Why do you think staff got nerfed on its multi-hits AoE? Because the it hit multiple targets in a large area. Why do you think staff is used in WvW and PvE zergs? Because it hits multiple targets in an area, even if for lower dmg than sword. Why is tempest overloads better for PvE zerg farming than weaver sword dual skills? Area of Effect.Area, range, targets, shape... those things matter. And not only for tactics, for balance too.

We're not comparing staff to sword. We're comparing dagger to sword.

@lLobo.7960 said:If a weapon gives dmg, condition, buffs, and w/e it will be nerfed.

No it won't.

@lLobo.7960 said:By allowing the ele to specialize in its traitlines you create diversity. You can trait to deal more dmg or give boons, you can trait to be more bunker or more glass-canon. This is where the attunements and attunement lines shine, by giving the ele the opportunity to specialize and be high dps or high healer, or a mix and be a great side noder in PvP... The cost is the specialization... going full dps means you will bring nothing to the group but a high dps... The concept is great, the basis is there, the trait implementation is lacking in some fronts...

This doesn't expand upon nor contradict what I said.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Not that I want to be mean but dagger and sword having the same "identity" isn't an issue at all since sword is restricted to weaver while you can use dagger with any specialization. The only thing that is really an issue is that dagger is "suppressed" by weaver's dual attunment mechanic due to poor choice of dual skill effects replacing "defensive" options.

The dagger's dual skills on weaver make dagger build glass canon without the output of a glass canon, while sword retain a certain level of defense with better output.

That said, we are in this situation because initially players complained that sword needed to do more damage and these damage were just powercreeped to the point that sword now outdo dagger. If dagger see it's damage powercreeped to the point that they outdo sword and thus dagger become "meta", it's obvious that players will asked another layer of powercreep on the sword to make it "meta". In a word, this is a vicious circle in which the community will never be satisfied.

I liken this problem to the one that engineers faced with their specialization. We got scrappers as a bulky bruiser, and then we got holosmith as a bulkier and brusie-er spec. We all complained that scrappers were just a weaker holosmith, so scrappers had to be overhauled to become very different. The hammer both inflicts disabling conditions and self-buffs with might, while the sword is more for direct damage.

For Ele's it isn't exactly the same. Weavers are meant to be high damaging duelists and Tempests are meant to be support specs. It seems pretty cut and dry at first, until you consider two things. First, both specs are melee specs. Just look at the range of overloads and shouts. Second, the mirror match is real. You'll get melee tempests with dagger/x fighting against melee weavers with sword/x, and it isn't the best design if one just outright beats the other. It also isn't the best design if one weapon is meant to be a specialization locked stronger version of another weapon.

Sword has to be better than dagger on the weaver, but you can make both weapons viable if you make them different enough. So I just copied what happened with Engineers. Make the daggers give boons, make the sword inflict disabling conditions and do more damage.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Not that I want to be mean but dagger and sword having the same "identity" isn't an issue at all since sword is restricted to weaver while you can use dagger with any specialization. The only thing that is really an issue is that dagger is "suppressed" by weaver's dual attunment mechanic due to poor choice of dual skill effects replacing "defensive" options.

The dagger's dual skills on weaver make dagger build glass canon without the output of a glass canon, while sword retain a certain level of defense with better output.

That said, we are in this situation because initially players complained that sword needed to do more damage and these damage were just powercreeped to the point that sword now outdo dagger. If dagger see it's damage powercreeped to the point that they outdo sword and thus dagger become "meta", it's obvious that players will asked another layer of powercreep on the sword to make it "meta". In a word, this is a vicious circle in which the community will never be satisfied.

I liken this problem to the one that engineers faced with their specialization. We got scrappers as a bulky bruiser, and then we got holosmith as a bulkier and brusie-er spec. We all complained that scrappers were just a weaker holosmith, so scrappers had to be overhauled to become very different. The hammer both inflicts disabling conditions and self-buffs with might, while the sword is more for direct damage.

For Ele's it isn't exactly the same. Weavers are meant to be high damaging duelists and Tempests are meant to be support specs. It seems pretty cut and dry at first, until you consider two things. First, both specs are melee specs. Just look at the range of overloads and shouts. Second, the mirror match is real. You'll get melee tempests with dagger/x fighting against melee weavers with sword/x, and it isn't the best design if one just outright beats the other. It also isn't the best design if one weapon is meant to be a specialization locked stronger version of another weapon.

Sword has to be better than dagger on the weaver, but you can make both weapons viable if you make them different enough. So I just copied what happened with Engineers. Make the daggers give boons, make the sword inflict disabling conditions and do more damage.

At the end of the day can you go melee glass as an weaver or even a core ele? Can you use a dagger and land hits with out getting one shot? That the problem dagger is only of worth though bunker and bunker alone because of just how low ele hp/ def is. Barrier is not enofe (as dagger dose not give you barrier like sword) nor is better protection. There are ranged classes who are far more tankly though both hp / def and effects taking 0 dmg to name one with OUT a wepon lock (ranger).

Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

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@Jski.6180 said:Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

You are confusing things.Ele, with dagger or sword has a lot of staying power. That is why it can be such a nice duelist and side noder in PvP.What ele doesn't have is ways to be a burst +1 like a rev, thief, or ranger. Ele does have dmg, but to achieve it has to be full paper and abandon its defenses and buffs. Therefore in PvP is mostly suicide and not viable.

In PvE, due to the different way things work, ele can let defenses, control and buffs be done by others, focusing only on high dmg weapon skills, utilities and rotation and achieving high dps.

What ele needs in PvP is not more staying power. Is more ways to deliver its burst at the cost of the current staying power it has.Its a way to get in, burst and run.The FA weaver tries to do that, and its very decent at it. It just gets overshadowed by how insane OP some other options are (SB with unblockable instant burst from 1500, Holos with much better mobility and high AoE cc combined with its burst, revs with lots of evades and crazy mobility combined with very high dps).

IMO, the way to improve burst ele in PvP without making ele completely broken in PvE or ruining the current side-node brawlers ability is to improve on unused traits and synergies.If you just give weapons a flat dmg increase, the current bunker builds will still be superior as they will have the same dmg increase but while also having better defenses.

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@lLobo.7960 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

You are confusing things.Ele, with dagger or sword has a lot of staying power. That is why it can be such a nice duelist and side noder in PvP.What ele doesn't have is ways to be a burst +1 like a rev, thief, or ranger. Ele does have dmg, but to achieve it has to be full paper and abandon its defenses and buffs. Therefore in PvP is mostly suicide and not viable.

In PvE, due to the different way things work, ele can let defenses, control and buffs be done by others, focusing only on high dmg weapon skills, utilities and rotation and achieving high dps.

What ele needs in PvP is not more staying power. Is more ways to deliver its burst at the cost of the current staying power it has.Its a way to get in, burst and run.The FA weaver tries to do that, and its very decent at it. It just gets overshadowed by how insane OP some other options are (SB with unblockable instant burst from 1500, Holos with much better mobility and high AoE cc combined with its burst, revs with lots of evades and crazy mobility combined with very high dps).

IMO, the way to improve burst ele in PvP without making ele completely broken in PvE or ruining the current side-node brawlers ability is to improve on unused traits and synergies.If you just give weapons a flat dmg increase, the current bunker builds will still be superior as they will have the same dmg increase but while also having better defenses.

@Jski.6180 said:Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

You are confusing things.Ele, with dagger or sword has a lot of staying power. That is why it can be such a nice duelist and side noder in PvP.What ele doesn't have is ways to be a burst +1 like a rev, thief, or ranger. Ele does have dmg, but to achieve it has to be full paper and abandon its defenses and buffs. Therefore in PvP is mostly suicide and not viable.

In PvE, due to the different way things work, ele can let defenses, control and buffs be done by others, focusing only on high dmg weapon skills, utilities and rotation and achieving high dps.

What ele needs in PvP is not more staying power. Is more ways to deliver its burst at the cost of the current staying power it has.Its a way to get in, burst and run.The FA weaver tries to do that, and its very decent at it. It just gets overshadowed by how insane OP some other options are (SB with unblockable instant burst from 1500, Holos with much better mobility and high AoE cc combined with its burst, revs with lots of evades and crazy mobility combined with very high dps).

IMO, the way to improve burst ele in PvP without making ele completely broken in PvE or ruining the current side-node brawlers ability is to improve on unused traits and synergies.If you just give weapons a flat dmg increase, the current bunker builds will still be superior as they will have the same dmg increase but while also having better defenses.

Staff has more staying power then dagger dose. Sword for sure because it get barriers on its skill beyond just simply using dule skill. A lot of ppl are calling sword an op wepon becuse of it. Dagger has nothing like this an evasion is no means a staying power effect.

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I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

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@kornfanxxx.9143 said:I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

I play d/d Weaver exclusively as I enjoy the game style (without unravel) and I agree with pretty much everything here. For me in spvp I play sage, and it feels maybe 400 toughness and another hundred heal away from a good place (also ignoring useless traits etc)

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@kornfanxxx.9143 said:I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

I play d/d Weaver exclusively as I enjoy the game style (without unravel) and I agree with pretty much everything here. For me in spvp I play sage, and it feels maybe 400 toughness and another hundred heal away from a good place (also ignoring useless traits etc)

When you have classes who dont need to run melee all the time can out dmg and out tank a d/d any thing ele that must be melee only i think there something wrong with this game.

Till d/d any thing ele can hit like a war and tank like a war it will be a way under power class set up.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"kornfanxxx.9143" said:I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

I play d/d Weaver exclusively as I enjoy the game style (without unravel) and I agree with pretty much everything here. For me in spvp I play sage, and it feels maybe 400 toughness and another hundred heal away from a good place (also ignoring useless traits etc)

I also have been using sage alot myself recently, combined with elements of rage, thief runes, and superior elements i can hit approx 50% crit chance w/ fury, and 65-70% w/ fury+weakness on my opponent. It works pretty well in spvp, with no really well defined role other than that of a team fighter. and not much of a roamer, it can hold a point relatively well 1v1 and 1vX, depending on map & node size ensuring your aoe's punish those trying to keep the node contested. But its not a clear cut defined "job" holder like sword/dagger and its side node bunker niche.

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