Disable switching toons before match starts

[YtseJam.9784]

I feel it is really unfair that people are allowed to switch toons at the beginning of the match before everyone hits "ready", bypassing the Matchmaking algorithm part of matching to keep the duplicate professions to a minimum. Every time someone switches classes, they switch from a crappy class to one of those "meta" OP classes/builds from metabattle, manipulating the matchmaking algorithm. I constantly end up fighting 2 engis, 2 scourges, 2 mirages, etc, because of the switching and it's nearly impossible to win matches when something like this is allowed.

[Tayga.3192]

Yes but when you go against a very counter-heavy comp, you should be able to change. It's not a luck game.

[bravan.3876]

@"YtseJam.9784" said:I feel it is really unfair that people are allowed to switch toons at the beginning of the match before everyone hits "ready", bypassing the Matchmaking algorithm part of matching to keep the duplicate professions to a minimum. Every time someone switches classes, they switch from a crappy class to one of those "meta" OP classes/builds from metabattle, manipulating the matchmaking algorithm. I constantly end up fighting 2 engis, 2 scourges, 2 mirages, etc, because of the switching and it's nearly impossible to win matches when something like this is allowed.

Not denying that there are ppl using it to manipulate teamcomps into their favor, on the other side when you not allow class switching before matchstart you punish everyone being able to multiclass and switch to something for a better teamcomp. That can't be the solution.

[sephiroth.4217]

match maker cant tell the difference between a DH and FB which is why we sort of need it.

2 reapers face off against 2 scourges for example.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

[DoomNexus.5324]

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I always read "the community voted this or that". Honestly I've literally never seen or heard about any official poll ever since I've started the game 7 years ago. Would it be possible to just pin a dedicated and permanent link to official polls to the launcher and highlight if something new gets debated about?Actually I'm not even sure about whether those polls are official or if they're just user created thread polls? Since I've never seen an official one before I'd assume you just use the results of the player polls?Because I'm almost never on the forums, only very occasionally when I'm at work and got nothing to do atm.

[Sojourner.4621]

@DoomNexus.5324 said:@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I always read "the community voted this or that". Honestly I've literally never seen or heard about any official poll ever since I've started the game 7 years ago.

Because I'm almost never on the forums, only very occasionally when I'm at work and got nothing to do atm.

The second of these is definitely a factor, but another factor is the forum migration. Many of these polls are on the old forums, which would ergo be impossible to pin. When they were up in official capacity they were pinned. I was here for this particular vote, though I had no opinion one way or another. I can assure you that at least this poll did happen and that character swapping during the lead-up was pretty well agreed upon.

[Daishi.6027]

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

I recall this, but have a vague concept of time regarding it, and correct me if I'm wrong; but this was quite a while ago wasn't it? Like HoT Days?

The biggest issue I mostly see is if the balance isn't accommodating for it, and/or doesn't remain consistent across game builds; the possible issues presented by character swapping can sometimes be inflated.

Again I can't recall how far back such a change was, and although I don't think a seasonal "re-vote" is reasonable, or makes any sense. I don't think a "re-vote" from time to time would be a bad option since as time changes so does the game, and what made sense, or was healthy before may not be so now.

On the other hand I'm staunch believer of "being right isn't a democracy", and for PvP in particular, I would implore decisions be made objectively for the health of the game. In spite of whatever players vote on.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

hey ben what if class switching was disabled 30 seconds to match start? sounds like a decent middle ground to me, idk.

editas in everyone is already in game.

[YtseJam.9784]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

I think something like that should be ok for unranked which is more casual, but it shouldn't be allowed for ranked matches. From everything I read in this PVP forum, there is a lot of manipulation going on already in ranked matches and things should be a bit more strict when it comes to ranked. I've been playing this game for over 6 years and decided to give PvP a try this season for the legendary back piece and achievements. The only thing I've noticed is a lot of manipulation and toxicity in ranked matches and it is not an enjoyable or pleasant experience and can't wait to be done with the achievements to not do it again.

[ChromaKey.9763]

I think that in ranked pvp, we should be allowed to choose our entire team if we like, but not be allowed to switch classes. It isn't right to get a pvp rank that is based sometime solely on being placed in bad teams who then manipulate the match on top of it by switching classes.

The reason we shouldn't be allowed to switch class is because the matchmaker creates teams based on class and it seems to be exploited every time I join. We end up with only "meta" classes when what signed up was all "non-meta."

Unranked could be "anything goes" as it's supposed to be a learning arena - doesn't make sense you can choose your team there but not in ranked. Switching anytime til match starts seems fine there where it's primarily for fun and for practice.

[ChromaKey.9763]

There are a lot of times in ranked matches that people AFK to make your team fail. The sometimes just AFK and sometimes just disconnect after the match starts. And yes, I've reported multiple times, but from what people in the team had said when this happens, is that nothing is done about these players. I once had the same AFKer twice in a row after everyone reported.

[Taygus.4571]

@ChromaKey.9763 said:There are a lot of times in ranked matches that people AFK to make your team fail. The sometimes just AFK and sometimes just disconnect after the match starts. And yes, I've reported multiple times, but from what people in the team had said when this happens, is that nothing is done about these players. I once had the same AFKer twice in a row after everyone reported.

Totally off topic.

To the OP.

Class switching is necessary. Sometimes matchmaker throws on 2 reapers or 2 supportd, when that happens, I switch class.

I never like to scourge without good support so if I see a support class I switch to scourge.

Instead of complaining about it why don't you also, learn multiple classes and start switching?

Tho, ime, class switching is rarely utilized.

[DoomNexus.5324]

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@DoomNexus.5324 said:@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I always read "the community voted this or that". Honestly I've literally never seen or heard about any official poll ever since I've started the game 7 years ago.

Because I'm almost never on the forums, only very occasionally when I'm at work and got nothing to do atm.

The second of these is definitely a factor, but another factor is the forum migration. Many of these polls are on the old forums, which would ergo be impossible to pin. When they were up in official capacity they were pinned. I was here for this particular vote, though I had no opinion one way or another. I can assure you that at least this poll did happen and that character swapping during the lead-up was pretty well agreed upon.

Well I won't deny this poll actually happened and I don't argue against its outcome. It's just that I'd also like to vote on such things in the future as well but if I don't get notified I'll probably miss it and I'm almost 100% certain that only a very small portion of players regularly check forums. So I'd probably not be alone or in the minority.

I mean there are tons of topics where the be-all-end-all shut down argument is "there has been a poll about this" and I find it really frustrating that I couldn't share my view because I can't or don't want be active enough on the forums to constantly browse and check for new polls (they aren't in a dedicated subforum either so looking them up is also a pain) but have to endure the decisions that were made based on them.

[Sojourner.4621]

@DoomNexus.5324 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@DoomNexus.5324 said:@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I always read "the community voted this or that". Honestly I've literally never seen or heard about any official poll ever since I've started the game 7 years ago.

Because I'm almost never on the forums, only very occasionally when I'm at work and got nothing to do atm.

The second of these is definitely a factor, but another factor is the forum migration. Many of these polls are on the old forums, which would ergo be impossible to pin. When they were up in official capacity they were pinned. I was here for this particular vote, though I had no opinion one way or another. I can assure you that at least this poll did happen and that character swapping during the lead-up was pretty well agreed upon.

Well I won't deny this poll actually happened and I don't argue against its outcome. It's just that I'd also like to vote on such things in the future as well but if I don't get notified I'll probably miss it and I'm almost 100% certain that only a very small portion of players regularly check forums. So I'd probably not be alone or in the minority.

I mean there are tons of topics where the be-all-end-all shut down argument is "there has been a poll about this" and I find it really frustrating that I couldn't share my view because I can't or don't want be active enough on the forums to constantly browse and check for new polls (they aren't in a dedicated subforum either so looking them up is also a pain) but have to endure the decisions that were made based on them.

They have always been pinned while the poll is active, they also are listed in the dev feed at the top of the page when you log on to the forums so that you don't even have to browse through the individual sub-forums to find them. They also tend to be up for about two weeks at a time. If someone is not willing to log in to the forums once every two weeks and check that feed up top (which includes using the dots to scroll through it in case dev comments pushed it off the front couple slides) then that's on the player and not ANet. They're not obligated to email or personally reach out to everyone who couldn't be bothered to make the effort.

[ZeroTheCat.2684]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

I recall this, but have a vague concept of time regarding it, and correct me if I'm wrong; but this was quite a while ago wasn't it? Like HoT Days?

The biggest issue I mostly see is if the balance isn't accommodating for it, and/or doesn't remain consistent across game builds; the possible issues presented by character swapping can sometimes be inflated.

Again I can't recall how far back such a change was, and although I don't think a seasonal "re-vote" is reasonable, or makes any sense. I don't think a "re-vote" from time to time would be a bad option since as time changes so does the game, and what made sense, or was healthy before may not be so now.

On the other hand I'm staunch believer of "being

right

isn't a democracy", and for PvP in particular, I would implore decisions be made objectively for the health of the game. In spite of whatever players vote on.

Yeah here we go again... ”The commuinty voted x amount of years ago bla bla..” The same lame exuse that is always used right now to justify that they don’t give a kitten about this game mode. The fact that they keep pointing to several years old polls is a mockery to the whole community..

Edit: with that said. Changing this now is a bad idea. The matchmaking right now is so f-d up you need the ability to change the class to not get totally ripped off during matchmaking. So fix the matchmaking first then disable this.

[Firebeard.1746]

The issue with character swapping is that it's not obvious it's a thing and the algorithm uses it when matching people

I just learned about it now and i've been pvping on and off for years. And then the orher problem is that the matchmaker uses it and os obviously broken. Gonna have some fun with this later.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@Firebeard.1746 said:The issue with character swapping is that it's not obvious it's a thing and the algorithm uses it when matching people

I just learned about it now and i've been pvping on and off for years. And then the orher problem is that the matchmaker uses it and os obviously broken. Gonna have some fun with this later.

The pvp matchmaker does not use it.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:The pvp matchmaker does not use it.

Scroll up to what Ben said or just play a few games. The matchmaker most definitely uses it.

[Miyu.8137]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

People also voted for solo queue only, yet we have a duo queue allowed :-). Why not give it a try for a season or two? Would be interesting to see how that works.

[Bazooka.3590]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

Agree. Sadly it's a must have with this catastrophic piece of kitten match maker what you guys can't fix since the beginning of the game.And when I add all to this the catastrophic class/build balance the result is miserable and total intolerable.

[Math.5123]

Just wait till you end up with something like, double deadeye, double scourge + rev against a metacomp. You'll be glad you can reroll.

[Ouk.5914]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

why do we have the system reading a Core Guardian, DH, and Fb all being the same in roles? I seen Games where we'll get Core Ranger vs Enemy Soul Beast.

Can we Do something with Class match ups? Another Example would be having 1 Necro On enemy team but then your Team having 2 necros. Stuff like this is what really kills the match making more then what it already is.

[Allarius.5670]

If the game is free to change overtime, I don't know why anyone would think the player base and their preferences doesn't. Maybe it'd be better to revisit game defining player polls on an annual basis to keep up with the times. Claiming the player poll as an excuse but being unwilling to revisit player preference feels ... bad? If we are going to be democratic about it, then be democratic about it. If there are other reasons then don't use the poll as an excuse, just be straight up with it.

[slasc.3260]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The community voted to keep the ability to swap classes prematch. In addition to the reasons people stated already (fixing a bad comp, or wanting to exploit a weakness in the enemy team comp), people also sometimes like to play a different character in PvE while they wait for their match. People often have different characters for PvE and PvP, so this allows them that flexibility.

There are of course some negatives, as you mentioned. Bypassing the matchmaker being a big one. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives overall.

If this is intended behavior, I would love to see a shortcut character swap button introduced. I don't know what is involved in that, but it would:a.) lend some legitimacy to this feature (which, until I saw this thread, I had always thought was a bit of exploitation as well)b.) help streamline this process to avoid long loading screens which can cause a player to show up late if they swap.