Your DPS is Trash

[Mordayn.6198]

So I'm of 2 minds about DPS meters. I personally like the idea of being able to see my DPS compared to others in group so i can improve my game but a segment of the Raid community uses it purely at the end of an engagement to chastise or criticize other players. It's not healthy for the game mode in general to use it that way and honestly shouldn't be allowed. I've seen particular players, not naming names, not even playing dps but at the end of an engagement will call out people for DPS that's not even that low at the end of a fight and in some cases even kick based on that. These players don't take into account dps lost doing mechanics, dps lost reviving people etc. They just look at the overall dps readout at the end of the fight and use numbers to chastise other players. It's honestly about as toxic as you can be using an external tool that purely looks at dps output and doesn't show any kind of mechanic competence for the actual fight. It's a growing problem and toxic to the mode that turns a lot of people away from raiding. Giving constructive criticism is fine. Help players understand what about their build they can improve but don't be toxic. I've seen people at the end of every pull call out dps numbers nearly every pull and not think about anything other than numbers. I don't think allowing this kind of toxicity is healthy for the game in the long run because it just leads to less people raiding overall.

[VDAC.2137]

It’s not just in raids. I joined a fractal group via LFG already in the middle of a boss fight and several people down. I tried to simultaneously clear adds and work on getting people up but was not able to turn the tide. I was then told flat out that based on my DPS I was ****. :( No reason to argue or wait to be kicked. Now that situation in particular I did not go in trying to do my max rotation on the boss — what would have been the point??? But knowing that I my numbers are being watched and monitored... I know I am not the best but I think I pull my weight and I’m always working on improving... Anyway, I haven’t joined a PUG fractal group since then, which is my loss as I more often have had good experiences... :pensive:

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@VDAC.2137 said:I haven’t joined a PUG fractal group since then, which is my loss as I more often have had good experiences... :pensive:

You are correct, that this is your loss. So why do that to yourself? Because some tool said something stupid in a fractal a while ago? Tools happen. Stupids things being said will happen. If you can learn from criticism, do so. But if it's just noise, leave the group and march. I promise you that tool is still out there playing in fractals, so why shouldn't you?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I was in a PUG in a T3 fractal the other day running a Might Makes Right + Phalanx Strength and Empower Allies setup. Random member makes a comment that the party's dps is low. I glance at the 25 stacks of might I've given everyone and roll my eyes to myself. Not everyone has the perfect rotation memorized. Granted I've had times where I've nailed my own footwork and DPS rotation in Siren's Reef only to look back at the party to find they all managed to die for the fifth time. Battle Standard has not left my bar since.

I've had a Mesmer chastise me for downing during the effigy in Molten Boss before, only for him to die to trash mobs the next fight. He said nothing else the rest of the fractal and left as soon as we were done. DPS is not the end all be all. People need to know when to cancel they big DPS skill and dodge out of the way of things that will kill them, and sometimes there really is no time to get out of the way. I just brush off negative people, and try to be helpful to those that need it. Just like on the forums there are toxic trolls in game. Not everyone has 100% focus on their screens, people have dogs, kids, spouses calling out to them, and phone notifications going off in real life sometimes.

DPS hard, dodge when you need to, and if someone goes down, pick them back up and carry on while slapping them on the back.

[Dami.5046]

get rid, i say. Shouldn't be allowed. And blame the folk who treat it as a trolling 'tool'

[ChillyKoti.1928]

Seeing informations of others shouldn't be allowed. But meh, who am I to say it anyway. Apparently it's 100% allowed so...

[knite.1542]

@Edge.8724 said:Seeing informations of others shouldn't be allowed. But meh, who am I to say it anyway. Apparently it's 100% allowed so...

Very selfish mentality in my opinion. This isn't personal information we are talking here, it is your contribution to the group. DPS does matter a lot and it is not unreasonable to expect others to pull their weight in a group. There's is a difference between being 'toxic' and expecting someone in a certain setting (such as a T4 fractal or a raid advertised as EXP) to be able to pull something even close to the benchmark of the class they are playing.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

@knite.1542 said:

@"Edge.8724" said:Seeing informations of others shouldn't be allowed. But meh, who am I to say it anyway. Apparently it's 100% allowed so...

Very selfish mentality in my opinion. This isn't personal information we are talking here, it is your contribution to the group. DPS does matter a lot and it is not unreasonable to expect others to pull their weight in a group. There's is a difference between being 'toxic' and expecting someone in a certain setting (such as a T4 fractal or a raid advertised as EXP) to be able to pull something even close to the benchmark of the class they are playing.

Benchmarks are created by the community, not ArenaNet. I'm not sure why I should abide to those "maximum performance numbers".

Also, this seems to only be made for max speed clear up. You should judge someone by their knowledge and skills of their class instead of said numbers.

The goal of a raid and fractal is to clear it, right? Why are the community so focused on monitoring people to see if they are pulling the maximum number an "elite" guild has determined an individual must do?

Sorry, I still disagree with the mentality of of seeing DPS of others especially since raids and fractals are mechanics-dependant.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Mordayn.6198 said:It's honestly about as toxic as you can be ...You know I thought about the most toxicity I have ever witnessed in this game and the times when I saw people raging, name calling finger pointing, using degoratory and at times racial and homophobic slurs.The vast majority of these events were open world things:-Failed Octovines-People doing events out of sequence during Cursed Shore farming-People opening doors out of order during Mad King's labyrinth-General map chat in Lion's Arch some daysNone of these things had anything to do with DPS meters.

It's time for people to get over this issue. Realize that it isn't any better or worse than some of the crap people used to pull in dungeons and get on with things.People in this game are a real mixed bag. They are going to be crappy for lots of reasons. The solution, as always, is to play with people you like and trust. Block people who aren't nice and move on with your life. Stop acting like every little slight (be it DPS shaming or them putting down your fashion choice) is a reason for developer intervention.

[knite.1542]

@Edge.8724 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Edge.8724 said:Seeing informations of others shouldn't be allowed. But meh, who am I to say it anyway. Apparently it's 100% allowed so...

Very selfish mentality in my opinion. This isn't personal information we are talking here, it is your contribution to the group. DPS does matter a lot and it is not unreasonable to expect others to pull their weight in a group. There's is a difference between being 'toxic' and expecting someone in a certain setting (such as a T4 fractal or a raid advertised as EXP) to be able to pull something even close to the benchmark of the class they are playing.

Benchmarks are created by the community, not ArenaNet. I'm not sure why I should abide to those "maximum performance numbers".

You don't have to, but typically you will have to abide by what a group wants. Most groups want people that do decent DPS and won't take hours to clear simple content. I understand that isn't every group and some are less demanding, but if you are the only one in a group that is not performing, you are holding your group back.

Also, this seems to only be made for max speed clear up. You should judge someone by their knowledge and skills of their class instead of said numbers.

At least for a DPS class, the DPS they do is typically a correlation of how well they know their class and the encounter.

The goal of a raid and fractal is to clear it, right? Why are the community so focused on monitoring people to see if they are pulling the maximum number an "elite" guild has determined an individual must do?Because it makes the content easier. Having a good build, good gear, and good dps makes the content easier to complete. I have played in fractal groups where I, as a druid healer, have done more damage than someone that is supposedly playing DPS. I guess it is just a matter of opinions though.

Personally, if I was playing in a group as a DPS class, and I was doing way less damage than my class was capable of doing, I would want to be told. I understand that there are a lot of toxic people that don't give constructive criticism, they just flame, but wanting someone to do decent DPS is not a toxic. But something that I think is toxic would be not pulling your weight in a group and then getting mad at the person that is telling you that you aren't pulling your weight.

Sorry, I still disagree with the mentality of of seeing DPS of others especially since raids and fractals are mechanics-dependant.I understand

[Vinceman.4572]

If you are really getting flamed because of your low amount of DPS then you joined a totally wrong group for you. This could be a CM group with kp, you didn't post them, they forget to ask you about it and then you have no clue about the CM/your dps rotation.

From years of experience till today I can tell you: T4 groups, even if they have the tag "exp" in the lfg don't expect you to do DPS near the benchmark. That would be too exaggerated and I highly doubt you'll find more than 3 players per month calling you out if you play T4s on a daily routine. But, DPS means DPS and when having healer/support classes in the group and they are doing more DPS than you you don't play a DPS build/have no clue about a simple rotation. There's no need to be a pro gamer or professional piano player to deliver decent DPS. Actually there are some builds that would deal more damage than a support/healer with only pressing 1. If you are not able to pull that off I'm sorry but then you are NOT a DPS player having a DPS build/proper understanding.

[Warscythes.9307]

Dps meters is vital to allow players to even begin understanding that they are actually not performing what they are suppose to do.

In open world, players often view if you can kill the enemy without dying, that is good enough which is definitely not the case in any sort of content with a bit of difficulty. A properly built character with a proper rotation can easily perform 10x times more than a poorly built character that just press 1. Just a couple weeks ago I was in a VG pug group for fun. There was one deadeye who pulled 5k dps compared to the 10k average everybody else was able to do because she took an open world build which spammed unload and brought it to raids. Now yes you can definitely beat raids with 5k dps on VG if everybody else is competent, but she didn't even realize that she was performing poorly because all she knew was that she was doing big damage because unload damage numbers stack, and she wasn't dying. That's not good feedback. Dps log is what allow people to actually understand what is happening so they can improve. It also helps raid leaders to understand what the issue is so they can fix it. Otherwise they might just kick me when I was actually the highest dps, because I am a necromancer which has the low dps stigma while a DE has one of the highest benchmarks.

Dps meter helps to get rid of class stereotypes like this. I play necro in 95% of my raid and fractal attempts. If anybody starts complaining about lacking damage based on necro stereotype, I can just bring up the meter and say this is how much I am doing, this is how much everybody else is doing. Without it, I can do nothing to actually prove that I was contributing and leads to more toxicity.

So no, we need it to both help others and to prevent more stereotypes. People misusing it is the problem, not the tool itself. Not to mention just because is a dps meter doesn't mean it only track dps, if you are really contributing in boons, the tool tracks that too.

[Mordayn.6198]

Yeah this post isn't really about the need for a dps meter or the need to ban dps meters it's more about people who use it to be toxic. As I said, I like to use one myself to better my rotations. Maybe a report option for toxic behavior relating to dps meter would be worth looking into. The longer these kinds of players are floating around Raids and T4 the more players we lose for the content. It's not really an issue with the tool exactly just how a segment of the population misuses the tool.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Mordayn.6198" said:Yeah this post isn't really about the need for a dps meter or the need to ban dps meters it's more about people who use it to be toxic. As I said, I like to use one myself to better my rotations. Maybe a report option for toxic behavior relating to dps meter would be worth looking into. The longer these kinds of players are floating around Raids and T4 the more players we lose for the content. It's not really an issue with the tool exactly just how a segment of the population misuses the tool.

You already have the option to report player for the reason "Verbal Abuse" if he/she is insulting others. Saying "You are lacking dps." is not toxic and not a valid reason to report someone.

[Mordayn.6198]

Someone saying you are lacking dps isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about people displaying toxic behavior based on a third party program. It doesn't really fall under verbal abuse. It's more akin to like the report for abusing LFG. Something more like report for Toxic Behavior would be more accurate. Then anet would be able to monitor them and if the behavior is rampant they can act on it.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Mordayn.6198" said:Someone saying you are lacking dps isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about people displaying toxic behavior based on a third party program. It doesn't really fall under verbal abuse. It's more akin to like the report for abusing LFG. Something more like report for Toxic Behavior would be more accurate. Then anet would be able to monitor them and if the behavior is rampant they can act on it.

Toxic behavior in connection with ArcDPS (the only actual existing DPS meter) is and would only be to insult others. Otherwise there wouldn't be any kind of violation against the ToS and insulting has the report reason "verbal abuse" in the menu.Calling out or kicking people from the group or squad because they are not able to play their role is not a report reason. It isn't even a worth reporting if people kick you out due to not playing female human meta. Their group - their rules.If you don't know what DPS means and you still join a group/squad you have to live with the consequences. It's that easy. There is content where people need or want to play in a certain way. They have the right to do that and you can't blame them for it or force them to change that.The easiest way to circumvent that is to open your own group. For fractals this is very simple because there are lots people who don't give a fxck about meta, dps or other stuff. You can even put an lfg like "T4 dailies, have fun, know what to do" and it'll fill fast + most of the times the clearing time is okay.

[Yasi.9065]

Let me tell you a little tale.

Once upon a time, when raids were new and no dps meter or golem benchmark existed, everybody insisted on running only power tempest or condi engi dps. Because thats what guilds killing bosses successfully did. Man, being a guardian main back then was tough. No matter my numbers looked bigger and I saw tempest afk autoattacking the boss on water out of range for boons, the first getting kicked from the squad when dps checks werent met... was me.

Arcdps was an absolute blessing for the raiding community, and all those toxic noobs calling others out for "low dps" are just that... toxic noobs. DPS isnt everything, and every good raider knows exactly what to look for in logs to get the correct picture of what happened. Raids - and fractals - without arcdps would be a LOT more difficult, and therefore more toxic.

You are the one constantly being called out? Then maybe the class you picked isnt the one suited for you. Or your build is trying to do things that are covered by other players already and you sacrificed too much dps on that one unnecessary feature (e.g. bringing a max might duration warrior to a squad with a druid). Or you just havent spend enough time on the golem committing your rotation to muscle memory. While the later one isnt per se necessary to clear raids/fractals, joining a speedclear or very experienced run without meeting that pre-req is just asking for a kick or mean comment.

[Mordayn.6198]

Again, not against DPS meters, i use it to make my personal DPS better and gauge how I'm doing. What we are talking about is the segment of toxic players that use DPS numbers as the end all be all gauge on how a person performed in the engagement when it only tells a portion of the fight. They're ruining the experience for other players and making raids seem like a toxic environment. Maybe we should start putting "DPS Metered" in the LFG title for those who want to be toxic like that. I'm just getting tired of every other pull someone running a meter calling out someone for hitting 1-2k under what they "think" they should be hitting. Obviously if a DPS is pulling 5-10k less dps than the other DPS that player has rotation issues and you can explain that. But the constant, "man your dps is trash" being thrown around just makes the Raid community look bad if the DPS they are doing will still get the kill.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Mordayn.6198" said:Again, not against DPS meters, i use it to make my personal DPS better and gauge how I'm doing. What we are talking about is the segment of toxic players that use DPS numbers as the end all be all gauge on how a person performed in the engagement when it only tells a portion of the fight. They're ruining the experience for other players and making raids seem like a toxic environment. Maybe we should start putting "DPS Metered" in the LFG title for those who want to be toxic like that. I'm just getting tired of every other pull someone running a meter calling out someone for hitting 1-2k under what they "think" they should be hitting. Obviously if a DPS is pulling 5-10k less dps than the other DPS that player has rotation issues and you can explain that.

Report them for verbal abuse if they are indeed "abusing" you. There is no need to add an extra report option to be specific about dps meters, reporting for "toxic" behavior is pointless as it leads to the other kind of abuse. We've seen it time and again players complaining about toxicity on these forums, when it's sometimes revealed that there was nothing toxic about the situation, only some extra sensitive players that think anyone that calls them out is "toxic". Combating toxicity by adding toxicity isn't a very good idea.

[zionophir.6845]

idk but everytime i do some pve stuff (fractal/dungeons), they are either silent or not toxic...

(i only do pve when i feel like it though. [mostly wvwvw])

[zionophir.6845]

arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

[Walhalla.5473]

To all who think that DPS-Meters are bad for the community... Well Yasi nearly nailed it. It wasn't bad during the times where we had no DPS-Meters, it was even worse. Staff Tempest or GTFO was the rule. Also people told each other " If you can do 20k on Guardian because you are good on that class you can do even more on Ele", despite the fact that both played completely different. I saw quite a lot of people who unironically thought that even if they go downstate a lot they would still do a lot more damage than others, also that catching the one Ele who just AAs and uses Meteorshower a few times, to look like they are doing something, while other Eles were doing their stuff, was easy ( spoiler alert... it was not easy ). Also it didn't matter if the Guardian in the group was doing 20k while the 3 Eles were doing 10k, if the group failed Gorseval no updraft the Guardian would get the boot like Yasi said. It let people who wanted to raid and do dps to equip Ele, even if they didn't like the class. Eles knew that if any other class wanted to do DPS they would be safe from getting the boot so a lot of Eles just got lazy.

After DPS-Meters got allowed and there was quite a shock in the raiding community. It basically kicked Ele from being mandatory to something like " If good ele, JACKPOT, if bad ele... meh ). Players began to see that other classes were more than capable of dealing high amount of damage and people who thought that they were good saw that they still had a lot to learn, and they did their training to get better. And kicks were done less and less based on suspicion and more on facts. And suspicion based kicks are way more toxic than kicks based on the fact that the kicked player did less DPS than the Chrono Tank as a DPS.

Basically DPS-Meters didn't just made it possible for other classes to go DPS on a regular basis without the fear of being kicked, thus making it less restrictive. They also helped the raid community to get better. So much better that it can be mistaken for power creep. ( there was some power creep with PoF but it was nothing like the one we got from the HoT release. What changed in the time between HoT and PoF was that Anet actually made it possible for most of us to get better at the game )

Today most people won'T really mind if you aren't even close to the Benchmark. First rule: Do more than the Chrono Tank/support, srsly if you fail that as a DPS than you are, either afk, or using the wrong stats. Second: Be close to the average of the other raiders, only be an outlier if you get mechanic after mechanic and/or if being outlier means that you are well above the rest. Even if you aren't doing that much, if the boss falls smoothly most people won't mind. It only becomes a problem if the raid fails on a boss.

[Warscythes.9307]

@zionophir.6845 said:arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

Because your trait, skill choice and rotation can severely impact how much damage you do.

Let me give you an example of Reaper rotation optimization, you can just go in shroud and press 4, auto attack until is gone, get enough life force with greatsword until shroud is up and go back again or do the proper rotation. It starts with greatsword, you do gs2, gs3, then gs5 and 4 at the same time, animation cancel gs5 with weapon swap, axe 2, drop well of suffering and go in shroud 4, auto attack until your soul barb buff runs out. Get out of shroud, axe 2, go back to greatsword, gs3, gs 2 and repeat the loop.

This is not even the most proper rotation, using your abilities at the correct time with the correct combo is incredibly important to increase your damage output.

[Shikaru.7618]

I dont think anyone is going to disagree with the op here. Dps meters shouldnt be used to chastise someone for low dps especially if you're not savvy with numbers and determining the context around those numbers. People who dont know how to read into context behind why certain dps values are low or dont bother ascertaining that context from the player in question should keep their mouth shut in party settings. In other words have the courtesy to ask why dps is low. More often than not theyll either self select out of the group or have a perfectly reasonable explanation like "I'm the only one hitting f on our downed supports".

[Shikaru.7618]

Double post.