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Timegating a Fractal. Really?


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The complaints are ridiculous, really =)I mean as a skilled player you can still play certain stuff others/"casuals" can't. Be it raid selling, multiple weekly raid clearing with different accounts or still farming shorter fractals with a coordinated team comp and the list goes on and on. Veteran players know how to make their gold and you should never rely on things like this procedure.The amount of gold you made with Aquatic was absolutely not in line and I can't take people seriously if they cannot see or even understand this.Maybe there are still some valuable open world farmings left (highly doubt SW is that good any longer because prices went low) but it's still lucrative to play daily fracs and being in a static raid squad with comfortable clearing time. With the daily login it is definitely more than 800g per month - a huge number that most of the players will never own or maybe once or twice in their whole GW2 career.Additionally there's the factor fun involved. It's very questionable that open world farming people are loving their work. On the other hand playing a little bit of challenging content (fracs, raids) with friends, guild mates or in pugs has always been very interesting and motivating - for me at least. If that's not the case you should really ask yourself what life has left for you.

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@"Vinceman.4572" said:The complaints are ridiculous, really =)I mean as a skilled player you can still play certain stuff others/"casuals" can't. Be it raid selling, multiple weekly raid clearing with different accounts or still farming shorter fractals with a coordinated team comp and the list goes on and on. Veteran players know how to make their gold and you should never rely on things like this procedure.The amount of gold you made with Aquatic was absolutely not in line and I can't take people seriously if they cannot see or even understand this.Maybe there are still some valuable open world farmings left (highly doubt SW is that good any longer because prices went low) but it's still lucrative to play daily fracs and being in a static raid squad with comfortable clearing time. With the daily login it is definitely more than 800g per month - a huge number that most of the players will never own or maybe once or twice in their whole GW2 career.Additionally there's the factor fun involved. It's very questionable that open world farming people are loving their work. On the other hand playing a little bit of challenging content (fracs, raids) with friends, guild mates or in pugs has always been very interesting and motivating - for me at least. If that's not the case you should really ask yourself what life has left for you.

Diference is that daily fractals are timegated. They offer very high rewards for the first clear but after that they are not worth it usualy. Raids are the same. High gold for first FC but then it provides almost nothing.On the other hand brainless farms like sw provide huge value and doesnt lose value with time. Tryhard players will profit almost the same as almost afkers.I used to be part of tryhard fractal 40 guild when it was possible. At that time you needed to be on less then 3 minutes per run to earn more then doing sw. 3 minutes was nowhere near doable for pug groups and so farming f40 wasnt worth it for most players. We were doing it under 2 minutes so it was worth for us. It required dedication and skill (otherwise pug runs would be able to do it right?)

Then they changed this fractal because it was too lucrative for farmers. For 90 percent of players it was less lucrative then sw but sw wasnt changed and f40 was. Shortly after this I stopped doing anything other then raids simply because other parts of the game are not fun with this mindset.

So I dont know that there were such farms. If I knew that this existed I would do it. That beeing said I am not supriced that it was removed at all.

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@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Diference is that daily fractals are timegated. They offer very high rewards for the first clear but after that they are not worth it usualy. Raids are the same. High gold for first FC but then it provides almost nothing.On the other hand brainless farms like sw provide huge value and doesnt lose value with time. Tryhard players will profit almost the same as almost afkers.I used to be part of tryhard fractal 40 guild when it was possible. At that time you needed to be on less then 3 minutes per run to earn more then doing sw. 3 minutes was nowhere near doable for pug groups and so farming f40 wasnt worth it for most players. We were doing it under 2 minutes so it was worth for us. It required dedication and skill (otherwise pug runs would be able to do it right?)

Then they changed this fractal because it was too lucrative for farmers. For 90 percent of players it was less lucrative then sw but sw wasnt changed and f40 was. Shortly after this I stopped doing anything other then raids simply because other parts of the game are not fun with this mindset.

So I dont know that there were such farms. If I knew that this existed I would do it. That beeing said I am not supriced that it was removed at all.

If something is worth it is not objective it depends on the observer. I did some farming lvl 40 back in the days as well but not fully organized. Either with pugs or with guild mates brute forcing it dps-wise. It still was lucrative because I hate brainless farms and as fas as I remember I haven't kept it up more than 2 hours straight. On the other hand I ran a dungeon tour every day before HoT and the boreout there only came from time to time after doing this for years.In my opinion it's bs to compare the own "farm method" copper by copper. If you can gain something from content you actually like it's more worth it and you don't feel exhausted after playing it.To bring SW back into the discussion I already said it's highly questionable that this is so far ahead in terms of farming. The item prices went down but prices for fractal encryptions are just fine. So, choosing a short fractal and execute it well should be pretty much ok in comparison.Also, even if fractals offer very high rewards for the first clear and raids as well. This IS something. A raid full clear is what? 70-80g per week + shards that can be turned into gold as (I keep out chances on rare items). Fractal daily is around 20g, often more than that, especially with fractal god attunement.Overall you can make much more money with stuff you like than other people who need to visit things like SW and press 1 for hours.

I still hold my point of view this method wasn't intended and unhealthy so it had to be stopped. The difference was way too huge to justify its existence. People need to stop complaining and whining about such a thing and maybe start working. The turn over from work into money into gold is so much better than to waste time farming it ingame even if you have a precarious employment in a fast food restaurant. ^^

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@melandru.3876 said:if gold gain is decent, the amount of gold to gems increasesif gold gain is low, the amount of gems to gold increase

from anet point of view, which is more appealing?

The evidence is against that, especially since this farm was addressed rapidly while gold:gem rates were going down and/or lower than normal, compared to AB meta and Istan, which went unchanged while the rates went up.

@melandru.3876 said:conspiracy-theory incommingprobably this, and this alone is the real reasonPick one: conspiracy theories are, by their nature, improbable.

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@"thrag.9740" said:I don't think it's fair to call this an exploit.

You're quibbling over an ill-defined word. ANet's official statements on the meaning of "exploit" and their past actions include this sort of thing: just because the game allows it doesn't mean it cannot be an exploit.

ANet's assessing the issue based on the outcome, not based on how it was achieved. For the game's health, there's no meaningful difference between economic destabilization caused by a bug and that caused by people finding a way around the mechanics to increase their rate of gain, relative to what was intended.

For example, Mike O'Brien referred to Auric Basin Multi Loot as "exploity and is trashing the ecto market."

That is: the question isn't "how did this issue come about?" Instead, ANet is asking, "is this bad for the game for people to use this loophole in the mechanics?"I suppose ANet could use a different word than exploit to distinguish between "glitching through walls" and "legit clearing that takes advantages of gaps in the time gates," but in the end, both are using holes in the implementation of a design to do something the developers did not intend.

tl;dr the word choice is not that important, under the circumstances

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@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:tl;dr the word choice is not that important, under the circumstances

I agree it is undefined (as in they literally don't defined it in their user agreement. Although you think the distinction is not important, if you read the user agreement for this game (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/), it clearly states:

"You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of ArenaNet, do any of the following:"..."Use, or provide others with, any “hack,” “cheat,” “exploit” or “mod”;"

Therefore, it is actually quite important a distinction. The word's use is the basis for contract violation, which in turn would be the basis for punishment.

Just because something is unbalanced doesn't magically make an exploit, nor does it mean it should be a bannable offense. For example, Anet decided that magic find influencing the identification of unidentified gear was too lucrative, so they nerfed it. That doesn't mean it was an exploit.

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@thrag.9740 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:tl;dr the word choice is not that important, under the circumstances

I agree it is undefined (as in they literally don't defined it in their user agreement. Although you think the distinction is not important, if you read the user agreement for this game (
), it clearly states:

"You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of ArenaNet, do any of the following:"..."Use, or provide others with, any “hack,” “cheat,” “exploit” or “mod”;"

Therefore, it is actually quite important a distinction. The word's use is the basis for contract violation, which in turn would be the basis for punishment.

Just because something is unbalanced doesn't magically make an exploit, nor does it mean it should be a bannable offense. For example, Anet decided that magic find influencing the identification of unidentified gear was too lucrative, so they nerfed it. That doesn't mean it was an exploit.

But given Arenanet can define what they see as an exploit or cheat, it makes no difference.

If they decide for example to call wall glitching exploits, then they could act on that. If they decide to call it cheating, they could also act on that.

The point IWN was making was: the terminology is not of major consequence since the given terms can be stretched to incorporate almost any action which the developers might find undesirable or harmful to the game. Given how there is a lot of "skips" which very easily fall under any of those terms, it makes no difference what we call them in this thread.

Even that is of no consequence in the end because Arenanet has total control over providing access to the game and total ownership over every ones account. If they wanted they could simply ban people out of the blue for giggles. It might certainly cause and uproar and negative publicity, but rest assured, legally they would be quite safe.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:But given Arenanet can define what they see as an exploit or cheat, it makes no difference.

If they decide for example to call wall glitching exploits, then they could act on that. If they decide to call it cheating, they could also act on that.

The point IWN was making was: the terminology is not of major consequence since the given terms can be stretched to incorporate almost any action which the developers might find undesirable or harmful to the game. Given how there is a lot of "skips" which very easily fall under any of those terms, it makes no difference what we call them in this thread.

Even that is of no consequence in the end because Arenanet has total control over providing access to the game and total ownership over every ones account. If they wanted they could simply ban people out of the blue for giggles. It might certainly cause and uproar and negative publicity, but rest assured, legally they would be quite safe.

Anet has total control of their game, that is true. However, they are still a business. Public perception is worth a lot of money to them. By calling all unbalanced content an exploit, your helping create a public perception that it is the players responsibility to test all content, determine if it is balanced, and ignore all content if it is not balanced. After all, 'it's an exploit'. And players are responsible to not exploit. That is exactly what Anet wants you to think so that they have unquestioned authority, and in the event they ever flex that muscle, they can avoid community backlash.

Let me remind you what that looks like:https://www.pcgamer.com/3000-guild-wars-2-players-permanently-banned-for-karma-exploit/

Here, players were expected to determine how much karma should be worth. Just note, that article is from aug 31 2012. Gw2 release was at aug 28 2012 (or a few days earlier for the early access buyers). With the game less than a week old, players were expected to recognize an, 'exploit' and determine it was such.

Why was Anet able to get away with that? Because of the perception your promoting, i.e. all unbalanced content can just be called an exploit, and exploits are bannable offenses.

There are certainly things that I think you could argue are clearly exploits. For example, when players figured out a single one of the faction provisioner's had no daily limit on exchanging armor for provisioner tokens, that was clearly an exploit. There was a clear pattern and precedent set that those tokens were meant to be a time gated. But hopping into a fractal just to kill the final boss and get rewards? There is a precedent set for that, players do it all the time. Have you ever joined an lfg along the lines of, 'fractal cm 100 at final boss'? If you have joined such a group, and gotten your loot, then you've utilized all the same tactics this farm utilized. I use to solo arah p2 to the final boss for fun, and then post an lfg, 'arah p2 at soled to final boss'. Were the players who joined my group exploiters? I don't think so, seems like there was a clear precedent that it was fine.

Things that are not clearly exploits, such as content that is being played without utilizing any coding errors etc, should not be labeled as such, because it is essentially creating community consent to ban players. It places an undue standard of knowledge on players.

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@thrag.9740 said:snip

All true, but none of this changes the fact that the terminology used to describe different skips, advantages, developer unintended content bypassing, etc. ultimately is of little consequence. There is no legal ground to stand on as player.

Also you are only looking at this one specific case while IWN was talking in general over anything which might be abused by gamers. I'll repeat: there is a lot of things which woild clearly fall under the term exploit or cheat in fractals.

If at all, the example you gave is perfect at showing how terminology does not matter. The Karma weapon reforging, just like the Wintersday Amulett crafting, were in the end use of game mechanics. They became exploits by simple fact that the abuse of them and the outcome was very detrimental to the game. How this was called did not matter in the end.

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Shame, i dont agree with the og exploit that you talked about but i think it should be perfectly acceptable for a group that dedicated time and effort to optimise their strategy and performance to benefit from that as opposed to someone who did non of those things.

Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

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@zealex.9410 said:Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

You did read the part where OP referances people killing the Jellyfish in the fractal in 10 seconds and making 100 gold per hour?

I guarantee you, the time gate was not put in place due to people making 30-35 gold per hour.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

You did read the part where OP referances people killing the Jellyfish in the fractal in 10 seconds and making 100 gold per hour?

I guarantee you, the time gate was not put in place due to people making 30-35 gold per hour.

You did read the part where he talks about a normal efficient run which takes 2 or so minutes and yields 25 or so gold per hour.

Thats what i was refering to, and i called a shame for also killing, im all for nerfing the 100g per hour farm. as i think that way too out of balance for the time and effort it takes.

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how I understand, and I am sure - skips is a valid part of gw2 mechanic. This is next level of skilled players, and no matter this is mesmer blink or very good dps from party on boss - that is skip of someone mechanic too. And this is part of experience.

So I don't see any problem that some skilled player till pro farm lever and some timegate is added.ofc strange at all that people try find gold in fractal, there is more easiest.Also I understand that is any farm content will be removed and timegated this is will be make some kill for all gameplay, because for very big mmo players farm ir valid and normal content. If this part will be removed at all we will lose only 5% players, or may be less. Now I try what it is 5% ? This is big numer or not ?this is for example very some numbers who kill last boss in last raid wing ..

so I don't have answer this is ok or not.. Now it look a some of fail - but it is ok.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

You did read the part where OP referances people killing the Jellyfish in the fractal in 10 seconds and making 100 gold per hour?

I guarantee you, the time gate was not put in place due to people making 30-35 gold per hour.

You did read the part where he talks about a normal efficient run which takes 2 or so minutes and yields 25 or so gold per hour.

Thats what i was refering to, and i called a shame for also killing, im all for nerfing the 100g per hour farm. as i think that way too out of balance for the time and effort it takes.

and again, the nerf and time gate was implemented due to a completely different type of behavior. What does it matter if people were completing the fractal slower? The maximum return of a farm is of significance on if it gets nerfed or not. At least that's how it has been so far always.

Arenanet decided that 5 minutes of a timer and thus 12 completions per hour is enough reward for this fractal.

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It doesnt need a high team to farm it just need none lazy ppl who has nothing better to do to farm it away. And there are ppl who farm it like no tommorow and anet stop it for many good reasons btw i dont think ppl who farm like that has any special status to it.. just another farm group .. not solo great boss or low men raidAnet totally discouraged this type of farm by the way they try to fix it each time. So each time anet fix it.. players try to find another way around it.. dont you think you are going against anet wish.. wasting everyone time

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