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Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update


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@DaShi.1368 said:I also agree that the unblockables are really what put soulbeasts over the top. Even without them, soulbeasts are still very strong and can compete with some of the other strongest builds in the game.

I think it's the combination of both the damage modifiers and the unblockables.an Unblockable RF or AA 's damage is not to terrible capping out on most builds at like 9 or 10k ( at least from what i have seen)And just sic'em alone with no unblockable for either a melee or range strike is opening it up for counterplay when visible ( for the melee as long as it doesn't come from stealth)When the two are married though.It's death and the only way to avoid that death is to be fortunate enough to not be near the ranger's field of view when the combo starts, or near something you can run behind.

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I love running into a SLB in Plat because 90% of the time, they are tryna run a one shot rapid fire build and unless I'm a Scourge, they are rez bait. Quickness rapid fire takes a single dodge to avoid. Of course I still have allies who tunnel vision and forget there is a SLB, but its just a different type of +1.

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Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

They can duel without 8k auto attacks then.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

They can duel without 8k auto attacks then.

You can balance without exaggerating too.

Another thing people do in this forum thread is mention builds that literally have no role in top tier play. Like sic em ranger, it's just not good and is horrible against competent players.

This is why nerfing that is not a big issue honestly, because it's irrelevant in top tier and it becomes useless for a variety of reasons.

Again, looking at specific builds and not roles. Sic em or 1shot ranger provides no role outside of being an insta-target against people who have a brain and understand enemy cooldowns and class weaknesses. If you're doing 8k autos (you're not) , but even if you were then you're not a duelist side node role and most likely running a glassy build which means you just what, run around and 1up? There's other solidified roles for that that are much better and have more sustain.

You will get destroyed and most likely even a revenant will just destroy you and they don't even role 1v1 capability. For that matter even a good thief would beat you, which ironically is probably the highest counter to thief making your role as a duelist completely irrelevant.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

They can duel without 8k auto attacks then.

Someone posted a video in the WvW forum recently with their SB running around auto-attacking and rapid firing (video aimed at nerfing them obviously), and what do you know, there was not one 8K auto-attack. Their auto-attacks (as expected ranged anywhere from 800-2k. I think the highest one peaked at 3100. So the question is, why do you (and others because you're not the only one) continually make these exaggerated claims on their damage?

Like ZhouX said, if you are doing 8k autos (which you're not), but if you were, other players like me (who plays a Rev) will simply just teleport in and drop the player playing the SB. It's worth noting, I absolutely suck at 1v1, but one of my fav things to do is wipe out players who falsely get on LB Soulbeasts expecting it to be easy-mode because the forum claims them to be.

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

They can duel without 8k auto attacks then.

Someone posted a video in the WvW forum recently with their SB running around auto-attacking and rapid firing (video aimed at nerfing them obviously), and what do you know, there was not one 8K auto-attack. Their auto-attacks (as expected ranged anywhere from 800-2k. I think the highest one peaked at 3100. So the question is, why do you (and others because you're not the only one) continually make these exaggerated claims on their damage?

Like ZhouX said, if you are doing 8k autos (which you're not), but if you were, other players like me (who plays a Rev) will simply just teleport in and drop the player playing the SB. It's worth noting, I absolutely suck at 1v1, but one of my fav things to do is wipe out players who falsely get on LB Soulbeasts expecting it to be easy-mode because the forum claims them to be.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

Once class being over powered does not justify other classes being over powered.

No one is overlooking Holo and Spellbreaker. We have long threads discussing them at length.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

Once class being over powered does not justify other classes being over powered.

No one is overlooking Holo and Spellbreaker. We have long threads discussing them at length.

Lol, there's threads on these forums detailing why ever single class should receive a plethora of nerfs by a number of different people. That doesn't make it actually true though..

Honestly, I know this seems harsh but maybe if you're complaining about all 3 classes and most likely others too outside of your own class that you most likely main, maybe you just need to get better and understand them and actually multi-class more. In PvP this is honestly the only route if you want to get better, if you're facing difficult classes, use that to get better and understand them.

When you find yourself complaining about nearly ever single class besides your own, I think it might be time to stop looking at the class and start looking at yourself.

Again as harsh as that sounds, I'm most likely going to be received with hate OF COURSE, because egos exist but it is the reality of PvP especially in this game but really in any game.

99% of the forums though honestly just really need to get better and actually practice efficiently against better players constantly, does it suck being frustrated trying to learn some stuff against good players? Sure, but that's the route to get better.

I guarantee you, if you practice those classes with the class itself and also playing against them against somebody like Kronos in duels and in situational understanding, you'd probably delete your thread within a week.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole. They are duelist roles, so you're saying you'd like to nerf duelists in general? It's their role...

It's important to understand that because if you just nerf one duelist, you pigeonhole ... That just means that many more people will go to another duelist that performs and you'll see an even staler version of PvP that already exists. You need to buff accordingly and diversify, not limit and pigeonhole and the way to do that is open up role capabilities not so much just black and white build improvement..

It'd be like wanting to nerf thief's decapping capability and mobility without looking at it's role in conquest , it performs a role and it is a decapper and a +1'er . Each class, depending on their build structure will have them.

Know your role and multi-class understanding every class's roles and you might have a different look at balance in general.

Once class being over powered does not justify other classes being over powered.

No one is overlooking Holo and Spellbreaker. We have long threads discussing them at length.

Lol, there's threads on these forums detailing why ever single class should receive a plethora of nerfs by a number of different people. That doesn't make it actually true though..

Imma stop you right there. I don't know how you go around talking down to others when you have proven incapable of remembering your own words and the flow of conversation before you rush in to type a response.

You: Come into this thread saying "Why are we talking about rangers and not Holo and Soulbeast? We need rangers to handle these classes."Me: People are talking about Spellbreaker and Holo literally just over there.You: OMG LOL You're complaining about Spellbreaker and Holo you're so bad looks like it's time for one introspection.

You literally cant even manage the flow of conversation through ONE response dude. I brought up Holo and Spellbreaker because you brought them up in the context of justifying Soulbeast it's current form. Then you go on to call me bad in so many words for being foolish enough to respond to you and what you are saying. That is one of the most absurd rhetorical bait and switches I have ever seen in my entire life.

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@"ZhouX.8742" said:blabla I'm gonna defend class that carry me blablaIt's nice and all, but everything need nerfs in this game, E V E R Y T H I N G. Not just SoulBeast or Yolosmith or SpellBreaker.Access to boons, their duration, damage, damage% traits, healing, passive sustain, condi application, condi conversion, condi duration, literally everything need nerfs on every class...For example FireBrand shouldn't have access to all 3 tomes at any given time, that's just too many things in 1 spec... Make it like: if you used X, you cannot access skills from Y and Z until X is out of cd, ofc u can cast them to get W or V benefits but not as strong as skills in these tomes, or smth like that.Revenants weapon skills need serious rework and nerf, especially swords and hammer, too high burst potential damage with all these modifiers.Weaver need a rework for sword skills (remove that dumb evasion from it, it's just a thief copy-paste dumbed down gameplay) and stances that are so random how they work (aoe heal on selfish spec? force full access through utility? elite that is totally useless with all these stunbreaks on short cd), dual skills are most of the time: "what author had in mind projecting them".And the list keep going for every single spec in the game, it's not just "buu, SoulBeast bad, pls nerf", it's simply powercreep is far too high and need a literal nuke from the orbit. Stop pretending that this game is in good balance spot and that "L2P" is an answer to all the problems and stop making excuses like "but but, yolosmith are broken aswell!", it's really immature. Bring back skill based gameplay, not happy-go-lucky-I'm-carried-by-power-creeped-spec. I'm fully aware that you may get kicked out of "I'm skilled player" bucket if nuke-nerf would actually happen, but then I'm gonna use "L2P" card. Being casual is fine, but trying to make them to feel skilled via unbalanced mechanics is not fine.First we'll nerf biggest offenders that currently roam freely W I T H O U T buffing other classes (I mean, what's the point in nerfing 1 if others will be even more broken?). What will happen next? The next classes that are overtuned will see a daylight and show that they're broken one way or another. What next? Nerf these classes that were overshadowed by even stronger speces. Rinse and Repeat until everything is in proper spot balancewise. After nuking everything you C A N start thinking about E V E N T U A L buffs, but not +158791356713785618751% to xyz, but small tweaks to make gap between classes even smaller.

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Well what's balance? Every skill 1-5 does the exact same dps etc on every class. Every class has same utilities,hp and armor values?Until arenanet stops listening to players everytime they cry about things balance will never be close to perfect,tho it could never be.If a class is more complex or has harder to do its rotations but slightly out dps a class that requires way less input players of the easier class will still flood the forums crying about the broken dps 9f the harder class and eventually like we have now classes like ele and thief get nerfed to end up not only being more difficult to play but in general weaker than the face roll classes. Than because the face roll classes are easier and more appealing they get more attention and end up further buffed lmao. Because it's our nature if most players get rolled by a class that does more burst than them but the class is squishier or more complex to play it matters little people will still go to forums and rally until it gets nerfed so theres no pay off anymore to playing squishy or complex classes. Anet should have just messed with few thing blatently problematic that players complained about than the rest stick to their own vision. If they did that ele and thief my not be where they are now

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@ZhouX.8742 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now. In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

In short:

Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc.
Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now.
In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

In short:

Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc.
Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now.
In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

In short:

Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc.
Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now.
In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

In short:

Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

You didn't deny it.You don't pvp.And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more

Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

Roles, not classes.

I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc.
Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now.
In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

In short:

Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

You didn't deny it.You don't pvp.And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

I'm not going to indulge your strange personal vendetta. Sorry you're on the losing side of the nerf debate. Best get used to it or move on.

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