What would it take to to put D/D on par with S/D?

Zexanima.7851 · June 17, 2019

I mostly play D/D because I enjoy it. I think it would be fine as is if it wasn't for all the power creep going on so how would we power creep D/D to make it more in line with sets like S/D?Boon strip on a successful backstab from behind? A flat damage buff? Both? Neither? Do you think it's okay as is? The best answer would be to just fix the power creep but I'm going forward with the assumption that won't happen for a long time (or ever).

Stand The Wall.6987 · June 17, 2019

make death blossom a 3/4 sec evade, increase range to 240, speed up animation and add a 2 boon rip to the last strike.maybe decrease damage of heartseeker but speed up animation, to something like jagged strike in gw1. get rid of bonus damage part but add vuln, maybe 5 stacks at 8 sec.increase cloak and dagger range to 180, increase vuln to 10 stacks at 8 sec, add 2 sec weakness.

might make it op but everything is these days so w/e.

Psycoprophet.8107 · June 17, 2019

I think ideally sustain would have drop significantly across the classes or a dps boost of some sort would be most effective. Right now the time it takes to drop anyone using most of the thief's weapon sets except staff is too long given it's own sustain. Just my useless opinion.

DeceiverX.8361 · June 17, 2019

I speak from the PvP/WvW perspective.

One skill overhaul, a minor change to another skill, and a small trait tweak. It's one of the easiest sets of changes to make a good kit work without just strictly powercreeping it.

D/D has been behind the other kits for years. So much so that D/P condi was more recently viable than D/D has been in any real capacity. The kit is heavily weighed down by Death Blossom being a very easy skill to spam and the only worthwhile use of initiative on its condi option, so its power-based skills take a hit to keeping DB have counterplay, and condi is literally a braindead build because it literally only has one good skill. The kit's focus on damage is okay in PvE, but it's so drastically-lacking in usable utility in the PvP modes (that's supposed to be covered by DB) and just generally-weak skills (DDagger/CnD/HS as a damage source) as opposed to other kits means that while I agree the kit is mostly fine on power, there is a small room for power budget because D/D was bad even in the core game/before expansion powercreep. Mostly, however, is that DB's utility needs to be opened up for both builds, and thus the damage and spam use of DB removed and distributed to other skills to make D/D condi thieves do more than play with more or less one button.

I've proposed the core idea of these changes a lot over several years, so don't hold your breath anything so productive will ever be implemented, however.

Death Blossom (Rework):

Animation speed and recovery frames reduced to match its current evasion frames. The skill is weak because of precast/aftercast delays more than anything (even despite previous shortening).
Changed movement component to fixed-distance 450-600 range gap close akin to beta Death's Charge coding because spamming HS can't compete with the range/mobility of S/x, P/X, and D/P and struggles with existing mobility creep on its own. Range 130. Increased power damage coefficient by 67%. Promotes using as disengage and re-engage tool and rewards maintaining appropriate spacing with increased damage that's harder to accomplish.
Multi-hit AoE consolidated into a single target-only attack at end-of-dodge with current total power damage coefficient. Deals no damage if no target selected to prevent accidental stealth breaking when in target-rich environments if trying to escape with CnD (example: BP+HS enables the damage dealt by HS but still stealths after the strike due to combo finishers' lower priority).-Deploys Lesser Caltrops on use cast since skill is no longer spammable in one location and further cements D/D condi as an area zoning kit while making D/D harder to chase since it lacks OOC stealth.

Backstab (Tweak): Retains the current power damage but additionally applies 5/10 (frontal/rear) stacks of bleeding for 1s. Rewards condi with actually using CnD and using directional play like power D/D for a small jolt of damage.

Trait Adjustment: Dagger Training's poison proc effect is changed to be 33% chance per dagger wielded (like most other dual-wield-able weapon skill traits) due to its loss of consistent damage over time from DB changes).

Doug.4930 · June 18, 2019

A lot of good suggestions but what about something simple that would make a world of difference. Adding Blind to Cloak and Dagger?

Jugglemonkey.8741 · June 18, 2019

@Doug.4930 said:A lot of good suggestions but what about something simple that would make a world of difference. Adding Blind to Cloak and Dagger?

You originally could trait for that in SA, but that trait being merged with fall damage reduction and put in the grandmaster tier caused a lot of complaints way back when. D/D hasn't been totally viable outside of extreme burst builds since, really.

Doug.4930 · June 18, 2019

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Doug.4930 said:A lot of good suggestions but what about something simple that would make a world of difference. Adding Blind to Cloak and Dagger?

You originally could trait for that in SA, but that trait being merged with fall damage reduction and put in the grandmaster tier caused a lot of complaints way back when. D/D hasn't been totally viable outside of extreme burst builds since, really.

I know, D/D shortbow before that nerf was probably my favourite build in this game. I can understand the nerf to be honest, blind whenever you stealth is extremely strong. But I think blind only being applied on landing a cloak and dagger was fine. So despite understanding this nerf to bring down other builds, it killed D/D which was never as strong as the d/p perma stealth troll builds from back in the day.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · June 18, 2019

The problem with D/D is you're facing two extremes -- non-DE D/D is extremely underpowered, while DE D/D is extremely overpowered. Any buff non-DE D/D gets will only amplify the OPness of DE D/D. Malicious BS just deals too much damage.

With that said, instead of "fixing" D/D, you should be playing DE D/D.

Now if you're talking about Core D/D, then there is nothing you can do about that since Core S/D is really, really good right now.

If you buff Core, that would apply to both D/D and S/D so it would relatively not change anything between the two.

The same goes if you buff D/D, that would apply to both Core and DE so there will be no difference between the two either.

The gap will always exist between D/D and S/D no matter what you do.

However, if ArenaNet finally decided that D/D (by extension, P/P) deserve to have a full 5-skill dual-wield, then they can tweak, not only skill #3, but the whole set to balance it with other weapon sets.

Until that happens, Core S/D > Core D/D and DE D/D > Core D/D.

Stand The Wall.6987 · June 19, 2019

deadeye rifle and dagger stealth attacks still do too much damage cuz anet cant figure out that +105% and +70% damage on those skills are op. they're like children playing with a big kid toy. its embarrassing to say the least.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · June 19, 2019

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:deadeye rifle and dagger stealth attacks still do too much damage cuz anet cant figure out that +105% and +70% damage on those skills are op. they're like children playing with a big kid toy. its embarrassing to say the least.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with them, and I know I say this as a deadeye haha. DJ is easy to dodge if you see it coming, requires setup and reveals the thief prior to firing. Malicious backstab was a problem, but now mounts are a thing the opportunities to instagib someone are so few and far between that you're only likely to land it if someone is on siege. I get the argument tho, malicious backstab in particular makes it impossible to adjust the dagger mainhand set without making something on DE silly, but what other effect would you add to dagger if not damage?

Eekasqueak.7850 · June 19, 2019

In what game mode? D/D seems to be the meta power DPS option for deadeye in PvE. I don't play PvP enough to really know the meta there.

Zexanima.7851 · June 19, 2019

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:In what game mode? D/D seems to be the meta power DPS option for deadeye in PvE. I don't play PvP enough to really know the meta there.

WvW/sPvP because unless you're doing t4 or raids you can really run whatever you want in PvE.

DeceiverX.8361 · June 20, 2019

@"Doug.4930" said:A lot of good suggestions but what about something simple that would make a world of difference. Adding Blind to Cloak and Dagger?

CnD isn't the weak link of D/D; all adding a blind does is make landing the CnD itself more punishing than it already is (good damage + cheapest stealth + backstab enabler).

D/D's issue across both its power and condition builds is that outside of one or two skills (CnD+Stab on power and DB on condi), the weapon kit has nothing high-impact and nothing in terms of useful, consistent utility. In most fights where you can land the CnD, you're already probably winning or going even. In most cases, D/D's glaring weaknesses open up because of boon-stacked targets, heavy AoE/zone control, multi-hit damage, ranged damage, enemy mobility, high block uptime or hit negation (blind, invulnerable/intangible effects), and faster enemy animations or interrupt priority.

A lot of people talk about adding the effects of old CiS to CnD baseline, but in all reality, it has no effect on D/D's overall capability. It allows for some more reckless play and closes skilled counterplay on behalf of the enemy (attacking/tracking stealthed targets, for example) as a "win moar" ability.

D/D's only means of being usable in PvP/WvW and not broken in PvE can ONLY come with a rework to DB. The fixes are not a complex set of changes as mentioned above, but there really is no wiggle-room here.

That said, the kit will never be a top-tier set like S/D unless it's made overpowered or the entire kit is totally reworked (affecting D/P, too), solely because of block uptime on firebrand and in general the spamming of permaboons on a number of defensive classes. Boons and blocks play too big a role in this meta which is why D/P has also been largely phased out in competitive. It's also why boons and blocks need to be nerfed; D/D is playable to some extent in core game fights, but gets too aggressively countered by the elite specs when they're played well to be considered good.

Jack Redline.5379 · June 21, 2019

make all Aa aatacks apply bleed and third strike imobilizes for 0,5 sec

Lonewolf Kai.3682 · June 27, 2019