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How is Scourge now on raid training?

Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

Was thinking of going scourge with mercy runes for raid training
My group is starting with Vale Guardian, Is the the best build to use: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/ ?
Or are there better scourge builds for raid training?
Was also thinking if it was still worth going scourge with the new changes on the shade barrier change. Anyone tried the new scourge in raiding yet?
(Only tried and saw changes to Scourge in pve)

Edit:
Was also curios if scourge can be used in every raid/wing for raid training or only some wings

Comments

  • Ojimaru.8970Ojimaru.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Support scourge are great additions to raid training groups due to their incredible ability to revive players, and practically give their allies 50% bonus HP from Barriers, especially with the new Harbinger Shroud.

    However, if you're planning to include a support scourge for your training group, it's better to have the more experienced player pilot it. Misusing Transfusion (e.g. proc-ing Transfusion and running off) or pulling Downed team mates into dangerous spots are common mistakes by newer players of the build. Players unfamiliar with encounter mechanics are also often mistiming their Barrier applications.

    "Thief? How rude! I'm a Procurement Specialist." -Glenn Gynnafante

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's ok but make sure your tank has more toughness then you, I run into an extreme buddy in diviner with one toughness infusion recently :)

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    STATS:
    Full Magi Armor, Trinkets and weapons.

    Why magi gear over shaman gear? Is it really worth it to sacrifice damage for a bit of extra healing power?

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    If you are not doing speed raids it can be really useful...mostly because it can save the squad from wipes..

    But since you mentioned raid training, most training guilds/communities actually blacklist heal scourge exactly because of this. New players may use heal scourge as a clutch and actually skip doing mechanics because of the scourge carry. The end results is that you do not learn the mechanics properly and when you find yourself in a squad without a scourge it can be a nightmare for everyone involved. So i would say if you are training you should not use scourge.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @Turin.6921 said:
    If you are not doing speed raids it can be really useful...mostly because it can save the squad from wipes..

    But since you mentioned raid training, most training guilds/communities actually blacklist heal scourge exactly because of this. New players may use heal scourge as a clutch and actually skip doing mechanics because of the scourge carry. The end results is that you do not learn the mechanics properly and when you find yourself in a squad without a scourge it can be a nightmare for everyone involved. So i would say if you are training you should not use scourge.

    Yes I agree with you but if you can only raid once a week, and you keep on failing it every time
    I rather have the scourge so it can be completed first and then it can be done again and practiced to do it without one
    Not everybody can handle always getting destroyed by a raid boss sadly.. :S

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:
    If you are not doing speed raids it can be really useful...mostly because it can save the squad from wipes..

    But since you mentioned raid training, most training guilds/communities actually blacklist heal scourge exactly because of this. New players may use heal scourge as a clutch and actually skip doing mechanics because of the scourge carry. The end results is that you do not learn the mechanics properly and when you find yourself in a squad without a scourge it can be a nightmare for everyone involved. So i would say if you are training you should not use scourge.

    Yes I agree with you but if you can only raid once a week, and you keep on failing it every time
    I rather have the scourge so it can be completed first and then it can be done again and practiced to do it without one
    Not everybody can handle always getting destroyed by a raid boss sadly.. :S

    The training raids in question are supposed to help people improve to the point where they are able to kill bosses smoothly. Cheesing your first kills with a few people carrying on certain builds is a different story but not something you should get used to if you wish to improve.

    The scourge can be used anywhere where people tend to go down which, at first, is pretty much every boss. You might run into the issue of missing the damage needed if you do not have a few experienced players helping out, though. As that build certainly doesn't function as an offensive support. If people lack the damage needed to kill bosses before their enrage they will continue to fail even if keep them from dying.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:
    If you are not doing speed raids it can be really useful...mostly because it can save the squad from wipes..

    But since you mentioned raid training, most training guilds/communities actually blacklist heal scourge exactly because of this. New players may use heal scourge as a clutch and actually skip doing mechanics because of the scourge carry. The end results is that you do not learn the mechanics properly and when you find yourself in a squad without a scourge it can be a nightmare for everyone involved. So i would say if you are training you should not use scourge.

    Yes I agree with you but if you can only raid once a week, and you keep on failing it every time
    I rather have the scourge so it can be completed first and then it can be done again and practiced to do it without one
    Not everybody can handle always getting destroyed by a raid boss sadly.. :S

    You did mention a training scenario. A training scenario is not a kill run. Its about learning to cope with the bosses.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    heal scourge is terrible for training runs. its carry machine, that will res u everytime, regardless of how many mechanics u failed. ergo u wont learn anything

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Do not use scourge build from snowcrows site. That build is made to sqeeze dps from heal spec and it is based on the idea that your teammates do their job perfectly but in reality that isnt the case everytime.

    You should always play this build to hard carry your group:

    STATS:
    Full Magi Armor, Trinkets and weapons.

    RUNES:
    Mercy Runes

    TRAITS:
    BloodMagic 113
    SoulReaping 331
    Scourge 111 or 131(new harbinger shroud needs testing)

    WEAPONS:
    Dagger,Warhorn and ----,Torch

    SKILLS:
    1. Blood Well(Rezz)
    2. Trail of anguish(Stab for everyone, additional stunbreak for you)
    3. Spectral grasp/well of power.(cc/condi clear)
    4. Signet of undeath.(passive lf, last rezz ability when everything is on cd)
    5. Flesh golem(insane cc)

    Use this build. It is 100x better than snowcrows one for pugs and carrying new player. Yes you wont do any dps but what this build does do is not rely on your teammates to do your own job well. You have your f5 stab for cc scenarios your own movement condi remove to survive certain mechanics that cause group wipes. And believe me, if your are alive then your team will be no matter how kitten they are.

    I think if you have to use mercy runes you either failed your job or the group is just very very bad, and you might not want to stay with them...

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Do not use scourge build from snowcrows site. That build is made to sqeeze dps from heal spec and it is based on the idea that your teammates do their job perfectly but in reality that isnt the case everytime.

    You should always play this build to hard carry your group:

    STATS:
    Full Magi Armor, Trinkets and weapons.

    RUNES:
    Mercy Runes

    TRAITS:
    BloodMagic 113
    SoulReaping 331
    Scourge 111 or 131(new harbinger shroud needs testing)

    WEAPONS:
    Dagger,Warhorn and ----,Torch

    SKILLS:
    1. Blood Well(Rezz)
    2. Trail of anguish(Stab for everyone, additional stunbreak for you)
    3. Spectral grasp/well of power.(cc/condi clear)
    4. Signet of undeath.(passive lf, last rezz ability when everything is on cd)
    5. Flesh golem(insane cc)

    Use this build. It is 100x better than snowcrows one for pugs and carrying new player. Yes you wont do any dps but what this build does do is not rely on your teammates to do your own job well. You have your f5 stab for cc scenarios your own movement condi remove to survive certain mechanics that cause group wipes. And believe me, if your are alive then your team will be no matter how kitten they are.

    I think if you have to use mercy runes you either failed your job or the group is just very very bad, and you might not want to stay with them...

    I think if you dont use mercy runes you are not doing your job(which is rezzing) optimally and you are knowingly not using the best in slot rune for ypur build. If we go by your word a raid group shouldnt need a healer. Just dodge! or leave if teammates are downing. Im no one to judge but it is possibly the most toxic way of playing any game or live.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    STATS:
    Full Magi Armor, Trinkets and weapons.

    Why magi gear over shaman gear? Is it really worth it to sacrifice damage for a bit of extra healing power?

    Yes. Dps is not hard in this game (new dps players on correct build can do alright collective damage autoattacking) and also you need all the healing power you can for f4 ticks and rez well ticks and barrier. Also for a new player trying this build out, you need to focus on timing barriers and i think doing dps over it will be a bit too much. Heal scg is not easy to play effectively. Ofcourse as you and your group becomes experienced you might want to go for more dps'ish style of play for better time but to seal the deal as a new player, magi is the best. This is my opinion though, im not stating it as fact or forcing on anyone.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Do not use scourge build from snowcrows site. That build is made to sqeeze dps from heal spec and it is based on the idea that your teammates do their job perfectly but in reality that isnt the case everytime.

    You should always play this build to hard carry your group:

    STATS:
    Full Magi Armor, Trinkets and weapons.

    RUNES:
    Mercy Runes

    TRAITS:
    BloodMagic 113
    SoulReaping 331
    Scourge 111 or 131(new harbinger shroud needs testing)

    WEAPONS:
    Dagger,Warhorn and ----,Torch

    SKILLS:
    1. Blood Well(Rezz)
    2. Trail of anguish(Stab for everyone, additional stunbreak for you)
    3. Spectral grasp/well of power.(cc/condi clear)
    4. Signet of undeath.(passive lf, last rezz ability when everything is on cd)
    5. Flesh golem(insane cc)

    Use this build. It is 100x better than snowcrows one for pugs and carrying new player. Yes you wont do any dps but what this build does do is not rely on your teammates to do your own job well. You have your f5 stab for cc scenarios your own movement condi remove to survive certain mechanics that cause group wipes. And believe me, if your are alive then your team will be no matter how kitten they are.

    I think if you have to use mercy runes you either failed your job or the group is just very very bad, and you might not want to stay with them...

    I think if you dont use mercy runes you are not doing your job(which is rezzing) optimally and you are knowingly not using the best in slot rune for ypur build. If we go by your word a raid group shouldnt need a healer. Just dodge! or leave if teammates are downing. Im no one to judge but it is possibly the most toxic way of playing any game or live.

    Lol what is this :'D

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    I think that for training, a harrier staff tempest will help more. Barrier is nice, but scourge doesn't help with any boons. If for example your druid is bringing sun and frost, your going to be lacking protection. Tempest is a very easy 100% protection uptime, with lots of condi clense and heals. Additionally, if you give a frost aura at the right time (which when traited via earth will also give protection), your looking at really solid damage reduction. Similarly you can give rebound at the right moment (example, if the training group is about to accidentally fail the vg green mechanic).

    Also, in a training raid, there is a good chance your druid is still learning and unable to upkeep 25 might. Tempest can upkeep a little more than 10 might on 10 people, which combined with your still learning druid should still leave everyone might capped.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think Heal Scourge is a really good choice for a raid training... You can pop barrier before mechanics that people might not dodge and insta-revive people who down. It's a pretty hard carry... Obviously a healing FB could probably carry harder with aegisspam, but this isn't a great training tool since people might not even realize they're face tanking mechanics if you're just blocking it for them.

    And then probably the best part is, once your group's out of the training phase, you can just swap to a dps class and run a solo-druid comp on appropriate bosses... Nobody's really relying on a scourge for their healing ability or boons, so your druid will be pretty prepared to step up to the role as solo support.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2019

    The main benefit of support scourge is:

    Most encounters were not designed with barrier mechanics in mind. At the very least not in wings 1-4.

    That's all one needs to know.

    Yes, boons, cleanses, aegis, etc. help and can carry a group, but nothing carries as hard as just increasing total hit points and being able to pick up people nearly instantly. Especially for training where it might be more important for people to notice that they got hit by something. That tempest healer putting out insane healing is great (and a very good carry) but will not heal past those 11k base hit points on your squishies. The support scourge will add 50% total life to them, over and over negating any 1 shot damage based mechanics.

    In short: support scourge when added to a druid makes for a near perfect carry class and fits very well into the chrono+druid mirror comp meta (has enough cc, doesn't mess with the chrono lineup, adds barrier, etc.).

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2019

    Keep in mind that while heal necro is the perfect support to keep your training group alive 24/7 even if they mess up every mechanic possible, the group will ultimately learn nothing except that "downing isnt that big of a deal since we magically get rezzed". Even if u get the kill the group wont get any actual training.
    On the contrary,next time, if they join a group without a heal necro to carry they'll just fail hard and still wonder what went wrong.

    If you are doing a pug FC and just wanna get guaranteed kills then its fine, but in training runs it just defeats the purpose.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoomborg.9462 said:
    Keep in mind that while heal necro is the perfect support to keep your training group alive 24/7 even if they mess up every mechanic possible, the group will ultimately learn nothing except that "downing isnt that big of a deal since we magically get rezzed". Even if u get the kill the group wont get any actual training.
    On the contrary,next time, if they join a group without a heal necro to carry they'll just fail hard and still wonder what went wrong.

    If you are doing a pug FC and just wanna get guaranteed kills then its fine, but in training runs it just defeats the purpose.

    Most training runs are done incredibly inefficiently to begin with so they are not even learning scenarios because instead of picking up a few trainees with some degree of competency and being grown in skill withing a group of mentors, what you have is maybe one or two mentors and then a disparate group of people with wild gaps in skill competencies being recycled around where the group members aren't even the same throughout several training sessions, so every new training session you're dealing with different problem players stretching the group training thin.

    In essence you get a person who needs practice with the final phase of Matthias but in the 2 days of training the consistency in getting to that phase for his or her practice is nonexistent since that person's practice is being held back by other people who aren't even prepared to make it past the first phases.

    And since the spots in existing statics are usually so few and often quite stringent beyond just having 3-4 kills on a boss, these people may train and get a kill but rarely move on to grow the raiding community because they find that they can't consistently raid outside of PuGing which has even more outrageous barriers to entry so they quit altogether.

    This game is absolutely atrocious in getting the average player to a baseline of competency for raiding/fractals because for most of its published content no degree of competency or thought into viable builds is encouraged as it allows zerging to completely overshadow individual contribution tests via open world PvE being its main form of content.

    At least GW1 did a much better job in training people across story missions first, then optional objectives adding further challenge and ultimately elite missions. But all of them had zero zerging involved and emphasized the individual contribution of each group member by limiting group size.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2019

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:
    Keep in mind that while heal necro is the perfect support to keep your training group alive 24/7 even if they mess up every mechanic possible, the group will ultimately learn nothing except that "downing isnt that big of a deal since we magically get rezzed". Even if u get the kill the group wont get any actual training.
    On the contrary,next time, if they join a group without a heal necro to carry they'll just fail hard and still wonder what went wrong.

    If you are doing a pug FC and just wanna get guaranteed kills then its fine, but in training runs it just defeats the purpose.

    Most training runs are done incredibly inefficiently to begin with so they are not even learning scenarios because instead of picking up a few trainees with some degree of competency and being grown in skill withing a group of mentors, what you have is maybe one or two mentors and then a disparate group of people with wild gaps in skill competencies being recycled around where the group members aren't even the same throughout several training sessions, so every new training session you're dealing with different problem players stretching the group training thin.

    In essence you get a person who needs practice with the final phase of Matthias but in the 2 days of training the consistency in getting to that phase for his or her practice is nonexistent since that person's practice is being held back by other people who aren't even prepared to make it past the first phases.

    And since the spots in existing statics are usually so few and often quite stringent beyond just having 3-4 kills on a boss, these people may train and get a kill but rarely move on to grow the raiding community because they find that they can't consistently raid outside of PuGing which has even more outrageous barriers to entry so they quit altogether.

    This game is absolutely atrocious in getting the average player to a baseline of competency for raiding/fractals because for most of its published content no degree of competency or thought into viable builds is encouraged as it allows zerging to completely overshadow individual contribution tests via open world PvE being its main form of content.

    At least GW1 did a much better job in training people across story missions first, then optional objectives adding further challenge and ultimately elite missions. But all of them had zero zerging involved and emphasized the individual contribution of each group member by limiting group size.

    So much this. Especially the highlighted sections.

    It's so frustrating to lead a training raid, even with a core group of experienced raiders when the group of people you train is so wildly different in skill. Why not run multiple training raids then? Because we neither have the manpower to do so, nor enough people willing to train others 24/7. It boils down to 1 training raid for new players and 1 training run for experienced players per week, and even filling those can be a pain. The performance and presence of some of the new raiders is terrible in general. This leads to essentially half a session of training, and half a session of running wing 4 b1-3 at the end so people remain motivated (ending with 4-5 boss kills for new players for the week).

    The most enjoyable trainings are with more experienced players where people at least know their class and have some experience with how raids work, but even there you have some disparity. Some go out and raid on their own with PUG groups and get weekly kills and experience, others only do the bare minimum and it really shows when tackling bosses which haven't been cleared for a while.

    In theory yes, you won't get good practice on a heal necro since you skip a ton of mechanics. In reality though: unless you are working on the top end of the spectrum, that support is needed on almost all levels. Last week during training we killed VG with 5 people (basically the experienced part of the group) and moved on. This week, where I had said we would do a set amount of training on VG no matter if it gets killed first try, no actually new player showed up.

    The best one can do currently is try to get people involved and interested in raids so they set out to practice and train on their own (my old raid static required people to test new builds or classes in PUG raids before being allowed to play them in the static group or to improve if one was lacking performance. That's just not something you see with many new raiders, and would also be to hardcore for a completely new player given the way how PUG groups operate). Anything beyond that is not at the level of new players entering raids but cannibalizing on already experienced players for advanced statics.

    This game is terrible at preparing players for group content. See the sad state how people are able to deal (or rather not deal) with even basic normal T4 fractals.

    There rant done, sorry had to just vent. Sometimes it gets really frustrating trying to explain to people even basic game mechanics. That's certainly something other MMOs do way better be it via the innate trinity or some type of achievements. No, that has nothing to do with easy mode raids but rather with getting people to understand HOW this game works.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yup, if I join a T4 normal fractal run that isn't a CM's+T4 70+ essence run, I can guarantee you that often just the 3 T4's with no CM's will take significantly longer than the T4's+CM's combined based solely on the huge gap between player skill.

    And some of that is because this game really makes no effort in nurturing a baseline of skill proficiency, and the other part is just how unintuitive DPS is in this game. Because autoattack chains are interrupted and reset over skill usage, performance between people who can count autoattacks and those who do not creates serious differences, and because this game offers no UI modifications to suit player needs in keeping track of important skills and resources, only those with good working memory and internal clock skills perform well at DPS while others do so poorly.

    Then there are people who complained about obscure mechanics like ether signet after cast with c split gimmicks being removed as affecting the skill ceiling of the class, but the fact is that this is a ridiculous way to increase class complexity or difficulty and that skill expression shouldn't be so completely obscure. I far prefer the condi renegade model of complexity over gimmicks highly reliant on ping.

    Once we get a serious commitment to instanced PvE content as the main form of content delivery to this game and a serious class balance/development team not made up of a skeleton crew that mostly thinks of PvP concerns for balancing and PvE as an afterthought, then we will have a system where a raid and dungeon community can grow.

    But for now the raid and dungeon communities will continue to degrade as the development direction clearly places very little priority in supporting this kind of content and instead delivering the McDonald's of videogaming via the open world maps.

    FFXIV and WoW should really be looked at as models that encourage the replenishment and growth of raiding communities, because they allow the necessary UI/add on modifications, content cadence, and player analysis tools to support player growth in instanced content.

    It also doesn't help that for all the logistical investments in getting started on raids, the monetary returns for so much investment are pitiful compared to just farming some open world maps.

    You know something is wrong when it's more efficient to get your legendary armor/ring collection done via the minimum amount of raid runs and then stop raiding altogether to craft the armor way faster by farming gold more efficiently outside of raiding. Placing such a ridiculous amount of goldsinks to access armor that's supposed to be gated behind skill checks is an atrocious idea when you don't design for the content with the highest player skill investment to provide undisputed gold/hr advantage. Which is why raid rewards should function purely on a raid currency of its own.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:
    Keep in mind that while heal necro is the perfect support to keep your training group alive 24/7 even if they mess up every mechanic possible, the group will ultimately learn nothing except that "downing isnt that big of a deal since we magically get rezzed". Even if u get the kill the group wont get any actual training.
    On the contrary,next time, if they join a group without a heal necro to carry they'll just fail hard and still wonder what went wrong.

    If you are doing a pug FC and just wanna get guaranteed kills then its fine, but in training runs it just defeats the purpose.

    Most training runs are done incredibly inefficiently to begin with so they are not even learning scenarios because instead of picking up a few trainees with some degree of competency and being grown in skill withing a group of mentors, what you have is maybe one or two mentors and then a disparate group of people with wild gaps in skill competencies being recycled around where the group members aren't even the same throughout several training sessions, so every new training session you're dealing with different problem players stretching the group training thin.

    In essence you get a person who needs practice with the final phase of Matthias but in the 2 days of training the consistency in getting to that phase for his or her practice is nonexistent since that person's practice is being held back by other people who aren't even prepared to make it past the first phases.

    And since the spots in existing statics are usually so few and often quite stringent beyond just having 3-4 kills on a boss, these people may train and get a kill but rarely move on to grow the raiding community because they find that they can't consistently raid outside of PuGing which has even more outrageous barriers to entry so they quit altogether.

    This game is absolutely atrocious in getting the average player to a baseline of competency for raiding/fractals because for most of its published content no degree of competency or thought into viable builds is encouraged as it allows zerging to completely overshadow individual contribution tests via open world PvE being its main form of content.

    At least GW1 did a much better job in training people across story missions first, then optional objectives adding further challenge and ultimately elite missions. But all of them had zero zerging involved and emphasized the individual contribution of each group member by limiting group size.

    So much this. Especially the highlighted sections.

    It's so frustrating to lead a training raid, even with a core group of experienced raiders when the group of people you train is so wildly different in skill. Why not run multiple training raids then? Because we neither have the manpower to do so, nor enough people willing to train others 24/7. It boils down to 1 training raid for new players and 1 training run for experienced players per week, and even filling those can be a pain. The performance and presence of some of the new raiders is terrible in general. This leads to essentially half a session of training, and half a session of running wing 4 b1-3 at the end so people remain motivated (ending with 4-5 boss kills for new players for the week).

    The most enjoyable trainings are with more experienced players where people at least know their class and have some experience with how raids work, but even there you have some disparity. Some go out and raid on their own with PUG groups and get weekly kills and experience, others only do the bare minimum and it really shows when tackling bosses which haven't been cleared for a while.

    In theory yes, you won't get good practice on a heal necro since you skip a ton of mechanics. In reality though: unless you are working on the top end of the spectrum, that support is needed on almost all levels. Last week during training we killed VG with 5 people (basically the experienced part of the group) and moved on. This week, where I had said we would do a set amount of training on VG no matter if it gets killed first try, no actually new player showed up.

    The best one can do currently is try to get people involved and interested in raids so they set out to practice and train on their own (my old raid static required people to test new builds or classes in PUG raids before being allowed to play them in the static group or to improve if one was lacking performance. That's just not something you see with many new raiders, and would also be to hardcore for a completely new player given the way how PUG groups operate). Anything beyond that is not at the level of new players entering raids but cannibalizing on already experienced players for advanced statics.

    This game is terrible at preparing players for group content. See the sad state how people are able to deal (or rather not deal) with even basic normal T4 fractals.

    There rant done, sorry had to just vent. Sometimes it gets really frustrating trying to explain to people even basic game mechanics. That's certainly something other MMOs do way better be it via the innate trinity or some type of achievements. No, that has nothing to do with easy mode raids but rather with getting people to understand HOW this game works.

    I'm going to bump this because it's not just true now, it's been true since the beginning, even with dungeons. I can't agree more; Anet has done the worst job at preparing people for what they will encounter in endgame instanced content. As a capable player, it's such a turn off to try to explain to people why they actually have to learn something to be successful in this game, because the PVE experience they have had treats everyone at the lowest common denominator (i.e. NO SKILLS) and rewards them for it.

    I hate to say it, but if Anet wants players more involved with the game at large, we need scrub-level raiding.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    STATS:
    Full Magi Armor, Trinkets and weapons.

    Why magi gear over shaman gear? Is it really worth it to sacrifice damage for a bit of extra healing power?

    If you want damage you run hybrid with plaguedoctor and scepter.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    So a max healing power (max amount needed to reach the barriers full power) build with dps stats
    Would be the best way to gear my Healing scourge?
    Now to figure out how much healing power is needed to reach the barriers full potential and find the best gear for dps

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:
    So a max healing power (max amount needed to reach the barriers full power) build with dps stats
    Would be the best way to gear my Healing scourge?
    Now to figure out how much healing power is needed to reach the barriers full potential and find the best gear for dps

    Marshal

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    STATS:
    Full Magi Armor, Trinkets and weapons.

    Why magi gear over shaman gear? Is it really worth it to sacrifice damage for a bit of extra healing power?

    If you want damage you run hybrid with plaguedoctor and scepter.

    Plaguedoctor seems like a pretty bad choice here.
    1. Wasted stats by taking concentration
    2. Pretty low amount of healpower

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    So best stats for a Scourge in a training run is healing power con or power stat and vitality?

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Training run:

    Rune of mercy

    Major: Healing power
    Minor: vitality

    Nothing more needed

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    Heard some scourge running Rune of the pack so his allies get some extra might and fury
    Anyone tried that?
    Something like that could actually work?
    Or is Superior rune of the flock just better all around?

    (Will be making a Exotic set with rune of Mercy for the time when I ever meet a die hard pug...)

  • Kelieto.6375Kelieto.6375 Member ✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:
    Heard some scourge running Rune of the pack so his allies get some extra might and fury
    Anyone tried that?

    Can the fury not be covered by someone else? Do you want to give might and fury? Then you can run pack runes. It depends on what your goal is.

    When I play Heal Scourge in random low li groups/training runs, my goal is to hard carry so I generally use full magi with mercy runes. I have the endless upgrade extractor and switch them out for other runes when I feel it's appropriate.

    Decide on what your goal as a Support Scourge is with your group and we can give you better advice.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:
    Heard some scourge running Rune of the pack so his allies get some extra might and fury
    Anyone tried that?
    Something like that could actually work?
    Or is Superior rune of the flock just better all around?

    (Will be making a Exotic set with rune of Mercy for the time when I ever meet a die hard pug...)

    Not needed since if you are running heal scourge in raids, you can just run a druid as first heal and he will provide might and fury for the entire squad. Might and fury for the entire squad and some of the other utility is the reason why druids are still run as primary healer with alternating off healers.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:
    Heard some scourge running Rune of the pack so his allies get some extra might and fury
    Anyone tried that?
    Something like that could actually work?
    Or is Superior rune of the flock just better all around?

    (Will be making a Exotic set with rune of Mercy for the time when I ever meet a die hard pug...)

    Not needed since if you are running heal scourge in raids, you can just run a druid as first heal and he will provide might and fury for the entire squad. Might and fury for the entire squad and some of the other utility is the reason why druids are still run as primary healer with alternating off healers.

    Except that druid doesn't usually as doing that requires either everyone in same sub or Storm Spirit. And Storm Spirit, if ever used, gets dropped first from utility bar if some encounter-specific utility is needed or if you have both condi and power dpsers in squad (which means majority of bosses). Everyone in same sub...never happens unless Kitty's commanding the squad (she does use one-sub comps occasionally for better boon spread).

    For VG, druid often needs to bring Frost and Stone spirits and Tides.
    For Sloth, druid usually brings stunbreak.
    For Matt, most pug druids bring Sun+Stone+Frost.
    For Cairn, there's often at least a couple power dps'ers in squad and druid brings Frost+Sun+Stone.
    Same for MO.
    For Sam, druid often brings Glyph of Tides for Rigom.
    Majority of heal-scourges can't oilkite properly at Deimos so druid can't activate Storm Spirit to keep up fury 'cause oilkiting.
    For SH, druid already runs Stone+Sun+Tides since healscourge can't push really.
    Guess druid can drop Stone for Storm at Dhuum...
    At Largos, if you happen to use heal-scourge, you need to bring might and fury for the sub since druid can't mightbot for your sub after split. Boonduration plox.
    At Qadim, it's often Frost+Sun+Stone.
    Same for Cardinals (unless you use boonthief for Adina which brings full fury).
    Qadim 2.0 also tends to use Frost+Sun+Stone.

    If both subs have a chrono with Pack runes, the chrono in heal-scourge's sub might be able to maintain 80-85% fury uptime for the sub due to SoI extensions. But especially in training runs, Kitty's often seen chronos without pack runes and that's ended up in 30-40% fury uptimes for heal-scourge's sub (unless Kitty was the heal-scourge with her fancy back runes).

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:
    Heard some scourge running Rune of the pack so his allies get some extra might and fury
    Anyone tried that?
    Something like that could actually work?
    Or is Superior rune of the flock just better all around?

    (Will be making a Exotic set with rune of Mercy for the time when I ever meet a die hard pug...)

    Not needed since if you are running heal scourge in raids, you can just run a druid as first heal and he will provide might and fury for the entire squad. Might and fury for the entire squad and some of the other utility is the reason why druids are still run as primary healer with alternating off healers.

    Except that druid doesn't usually as doing that requires either everyone in same sub or Storm Spirit. And Storm Spirit, if ever used, gets dropped first from utility bar if some encounter-specific utility is needed or if you have both condi and power dpsers in squad (which means majority of bosses). Everyone in same sub...never happens unless Kitty's commanding the squad (she does use one-sub comps occasionally for better boon spread).

    For VG, druid often needs to bring Frost and Stone spirits and Tides.
    For Sloth, druid usually brings stunbreak.
    For Matt, most pug druids bring Sun+Stone+Frost.
    For Cairn, there's often at least a couple power dps'ers in squad and druid brings Frost+Sun+Stone.
    Same for MO.
    For Sam, druid often brings Glyph of Tides for Rigom.
    Majority of heal-scourges can't oilkite properly at Deimos so druid can't activate Storm Spirit to keep up fury 'cause oilkiting.
    For SH, druid already runs Stone+Sun+Tides since healscourge can't push really.
    Guess druid can drop Stone for Storm at Dhuum...
    At Largos, if you happen to use heal-scourge, you need to bring might and fury for the sub since druid can't mightbot for your sub after split. Boonduration plox.
    At Qadim, it's often Frost+Sun+Stone.
    Same for Cardinals (unless you use boonthief for Adina which brings full fury).
    Qadim 2.0 also tends to use Frost+Sun+Stone.

    If both subs have a chrono with Pack runes, the chrono in heal-scourge's sub might be able to maintain 80-85% fury uptime for the sub due to SoI extensions. But especially in training runs, Kitty's often seen chronos without pack runes and that's ended up in 30-40% fury uptimes for heal-scourge's sub (unless Kitty was the heal-scourge with her fancy back runes).

    Yeah, except none of that applies when you have a heal scrouge.

    If your druid isn't providing raid might and fury, you are doing it wrong.

    VG - none of that is needed with a heal scourge, you have barrier.
    Sloth - druid bringing stunbreak is 2017 meta. Get 1 of your DH to bring along 10 mann stab, done.
    Matthias - again, you have a heal scrouge with barrier. If your druid needs to invest this hard into people surviving, your scrouge is afk or your druid sucks
    Cairn - barrier > stone AGAIN
    MO - Stone on MO, what are you smoking exactly?
    Deimos - I wouldn't bring a heal scourge to Deimos in the first place.
    SH - you are still bringing stone instead of using barrier. Slowly I have a feeling you have never actually had a heal scourge in your composition
    Largos - you bring two druids or you use portal strat. Once again, no stone needed
    Quadim - two druids or you have a way bigger benefit of having barrier than protection once again

    You are relying way to much on protection. It's neither needed in most of those fights, nor will it help against mechanics where a heal scourge does not vastly outperform the protection provided. You are literally making your offheal worse by not utilizing 10 man abilities.

    If you ABSOLUTELY need protection, drop one of the offensive spirits since your group will not utilize them to the fullest anyway. Don't try to make the necro do something he is bad at. 10 mann boons is one of the most powerful abilities on any boon (be it stab on guardian, alacrity on rev or fury+might on druid).

  • Metasynaptic.1093Metasynaptic.1093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019

    Heal scourge is very strong on wings 1, 2, and 4. It's useful on 3 but I prefer to run druid there, either solo or paired, group dependant. Heal scourge on Deimos isn't advised. It can be done but you have to be a pretty pro heal scourge and know what your are doing. Heal scourge shouldn't run mercy runes in raids, unless your group needs a hard carry, in which case the debate around the heal scourge is the least of your worries.