Would scrapper be too OP for raiding if they could give either alicrity or quickness to allies?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

why?

again, abolish all classes but scrapper? How about not-every-class-is-awesome-at-everything?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

You do realize that most classes have elite specs for different game modes and roles.

Why should engineers need multiple PvE power dps builds? Holosmith is great at PvE power damage. Why would you intentionally stiffle the design possibilties of Scrapper by forcing more damage onto the specialization and make balance potentially even worse/hard?

DD/DE are nearly identical in how they play: autoattack to win and press a utility skill every 20-30 seconds. The main reason being thiefs initiative design. You want Arenanet to copy this simplicity to engineer?

Tempest and Weaver again share a vast majority of the elementalists core abilities and utilities.

Let's look at which classes do not have multiple builds fullfilling the same role on different elite specializations:

• mesmer
• necromancer
• engineer
• guardian
• revenant
• ranger

The last outlier is warrior who once again achieves his power damage via his core weapons mostly with variations what his elite specializations provide. Now why do you believe engineer deserves a different treatment than 2/3s of all classes?

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh,

only this

spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps

option

with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

why?

again, abolish all classes but scrapper? How about not-every-class-is-awesome-at-everything?

Where did I say that I wanted to abolish all classes?

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh,

only this

spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps

option

with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

You do realize that most classes have elite specs for different game modes and roles.

Why should engineers need multiple PvE power dps builds? Holosmith is great at PvE power damage. Why would you intentionally stiffle the design possibilties of Scrapper by forcing more damage onto the specialization and make balance potentially even worse/hard?

DD/DE are nearly identical in how they play: autoattack to win and press a utility skill every 20-30 seconds. The main reason being thiefs initiative design. You want Arenanet to copy this simplicity to engineer?

Tempest and Weaver again share a vast majority of the elementalists core abilities and utilities.

Let's look at which classes do not have multiple builds fullfilling the same role on different elite specializations:

• mesmer
• necromancer
• engineer
• guardian
• revenant
• ranger

The last outlier is warrior who once again achieves his power damage via his core weapons mostly with variations what his elite specializations provide. Now why do you believe engineer deserves a different treatment than 2/3s of all classes?

Hmm, I never said to get rid of the supportive capabilities of scrapper.

If all professions according to the instinctive need to pigeonhole are not allowed to have two similar roles or designed to have one specific role (i.e. dps, although raids created the differentiation of power/condi) then I would have to say the possibilities and popularity of future especs looks pretty bleak. Some professions are technically ‘done’ - guardian, it has its power & condi dps and also support options. What’s its next espec gonna be? Tanky pvp oriented, useless in pve wall that does does nothing but tank? Theorhetically:

• Guard is done
• Rev is done (although its power option is really weak because it’s support /sigh. Even then, herald support is still very weak)
• Ranger is done (druid is kinda sad however with its support only option)
• Thief is done (could use a more effective support build, but how many would play thief to heal/support like a druid/fb? DD could use condi buffs or alternatively, a specifically condi oriented espec could be made)
• Necro is done
• Ele is done
• Mes is done

We (or least I) can look at this in multiple ways to try and argue w/e point we’re trying to make. Why is it that every espec can do some sort of dps except druid/scrapper? Are those two the problem, or has everything else been done completely wrong? Should we get rid of/rework ‘two role’ especs? Because without doing so, we’re going to run into the same problem (no two especs should do the same thing) anyway:

• Beserker - power/condi
• FB - support/condi
• Herald - power/support
• Renegade - condi/support
• SlB - power/condi
• DD - power/condi
• Chrono - support/power
• Temp - power/support
• Scourge - condi/support

Throwing a very unproven assumption here, but I suspect more players play dmg roles than support, and if especs are locked out of such option, it has less of a population - especially in high-end pve when it’s support capabilities are or become overshadowed by the meta (druid is dying, albeit very slowly).

I don’t even own an engi anymore (I deleted it because I dislike alts), I’m not looking to make scrapper ‘special’ - this more of a consistency review, or another fool claiming to have great ideas for the unrealistic dream of build diversity. You can take or leave my opinion, as this thread is more oriented on making engi support more prominent, but it still stands if you find the need to refer back to it.

tl;dr: good luck trying to make scrapper be able to compete with the meta support options and have some place in high-end pve, no /sarcasm, I genuinely want to see different specs that are able support other than the usual ~4.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh,

only this

spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps

option

with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

why?

again, abolish all classes but scrapper? How about not-every-class-is-awesome-at-everything?

Where did I say that I wanted to abolish all classes?

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh,

only this

spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps

option

with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

You do realize that most classes have elite specs for different game modes and roles.

Why should engineers need multiple PvE power dps builds? Holosmith is great at PvE power damage. Why would you intentionally stiffle the design possibilties of Scrapper by forcing more damage onto the specialization and make balance potentially even worse/hard?

DD/DE are nearly identical in how they play: autoattack to win and press a utility skill every 20-30 seconds. The main reason being thiefs initiative design. You want Arenanet to copy this simplicity to engineer?

Tempest and Weaver again share a vast majority of the elementalists core abilities and utilities.

Let's look at which classes do not have multiple builds fullfilling the same role on different elite specializations:

• mesmer
• necromancer
• engineer
• guardian
• revenant
• ranger

The last outlier is warrior who once again achieves his power damage via his core weapons mostly with variations what his elite specializations provide. Now why do you believe engineer deserves a different treatment than 2/3s of all classes?

Hmm, I never said to get rid of the supportive capabilities of scrapper.

If all professions according to the instinctive need to pigeonhole are not allowed to have two similar roles or designed to have one specific role (i.e. dps, although raids created the differentiation of power/condi) then I would have to say the possibilities and popularity of future especs looks pretty bleak. Some professions are technically ‘done’ - guardian, it has its power & condi dps and also support options. What’s its next espec gonna be?

Tanky pvp oriented, useless in pve wall that does does nothing but tank?

Theorhetically:

• Guard is done
• Rev is done (although its power option is really weak because
  it’s support
  /sigh. Even then, herald support is still very weak)
• Ranger is done (druid is kinda sad however with its support only option)
• Thief is done (could use a more effective support build, but how many would play thief to heal/support like a druid/fb? DD could use condi buffs or alternatively, a specifically condi oriented espec could be made)
• Necro is done
• Ele is done
• Mes is done

Yes, all great noble ideas but there is only so much which is possible with a balance and developer team of a specific size.

What you completetly omit though is that elite specs, even the ones you mentioned, differentiate themselves not by trinity or role but by game play. Furthermore you are looking at this from only a pve perspective. WvW and Spvp see a lot of different gameplay. Last I checked, Scrapper is the top tier WvW support spec currently right after Firebrand. Both Scrapper and Holosmith see play in WvW in romaing for example.

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:We (or least I) can look at this in multiple ways to try and argue w/e point we’re trying to make. Why is it that every espec can do some sort of dps except druid/scrapper?

No what you are complaining about is that druid and scrapper do not have meta viable dps specs for pve. That is a very niche role and aspect to the game to look at. Especially from two of the most powerful support specs in the game.

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Throwing a very unproven assumption here, but I suspect more players play dmg roles than support, and if especs are locked out of such option, it has less of a population - especially in high-end pve when it’s support capabilities are or become overshadowed by the meta (druid is dying, albeit very slowly).

Yes, and meanwhile Support Scrapper is the second best support spec in WvW and a node tank in spvp. Where was druid in WvW again?

Obviously in an ideal world we would see as many viable builds for each class as possible. This would require near perfect balance. Suffice to say, that is very unlikely to happen. The next best thing in my opinion is at least make every core class viable for as many roles as possible.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, all great noble ideas but there is only so much which is possible with a balance and developer team of a specific size.

Yes, I’m aware that 80% of my suggestions on this forum are ‘noble’ (so you say) long term goals that anet has to decide whether they want to gradually implement in their future patches or not. Because that’s just how this game rolls.

What you completetly omit though is that elite specs, even the ones you mentioned, differentiate themselves not by trinity or role but by game play. Furthermore you are looking at this from only a pve perspective. WvW and Spvp see a lot of different gameplay. Last I checked, Scrapper is the top tier WvW support spec currently right after Firebrand. Both Scrapper and Holosmith see play in WvW in romaing for example.

Don’t tell me that I’ve omitted when you’re capable of doing the same. And congrats, you’ve correctly identified that I mainly focus on pve (please keep this in mind).

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.So you say scrapper shouldn’t exist in endgame pve unless playing only as a (inefficient) support role? I actually never planned to suggest more dmg or anything really to wvw/pvp scrapper.

No what you are complaining about is that druid and scrapper do not have meta viable dps specs for pve.

Not complaining (I am personally unaffected by any changes made to engi or ranger, I only play the three light armor proffessions), I’m just the fool who claims to have ‘noble’ ideas. And I never said meta, the meta is simply too hard to beat - something more aligned with herald dps (which is currently very trash, who would be complaining against giving scrapper higher but still low tier dps?)

That is a very niche role and aspect to the game to look at. Especially from two of the most powerful support specs in the game.

I thought we weren’t talking about roles and trying to avoid trinity pigeonholing. I would have admittedly omitted this out of spite.

There’s a unique variety of tools, additional features and flaws that each different dps builds on different professions bring, it’s never niche unless every skill on the bar does nothing but a dmg number and the rotation is ‘press everything off cd’. Fortunately, scrapper already has function gyro, and its superspeed + stab on its expanse access to cc could find a use somewhere.

Yes, and meanwhile Support Scrapper is the second best support spec in WvW and a node tank in spvp. Where was druid in WvW again?

Suggesting 0 changes to wvw/pvp scrapper here. Druid, I’ve highlighted but have formulated no plans to move against (or else I would be spouting said nonsense in the ranger forums).

Obviously in an ideal world we would see as many viable builds for each class as possible. This would require near perfect balance. Suffice to say, that is very unlikely to happen. The next best thing in my opinion is at least make every core class viable for as many roles as possible.

Agreed, perfect balance is very unlikely to happen. It is possible that anet keeps things unbalanced to constantly refresh the game. But then again, this isn’t even balance. It’s basically trying to get scrapper a sustained role/s in high-end pve.

I agree that a lot of problems would be fixed if the core classes were viable by themselves. Especs should ideally be an alternative ‘utility’ line (discipline, virtues, invocations, beastmastery, etc.) that provides options/traits for 3 distinct pathways (pve power/condi dps, selfish sustain, group support, wvw/pvp utility, etc.).

Having trinity locked especs is unappealing for players who don’t bother with that sort of thing. Gamemode oriented especs are the same for pve/wvw/pvp specific players, thus why I see giving scrapper ‘the other option’ can increase its popularity in the long run, unaffected by whether or not the support/wvw/pvp options fail, since those areas way more volatile and subject to meta shifts (because previously as a pvp-oriented espec, I believe it practically fell out of the entire game at a certain point?).

[Cyninja.2954]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:snip

You missunderstood what I meant with core classes being viable.

I meant literally any base class should have access to as many roles as possible via its elite specializations. I'd rather Arenanet first balance so every class has a viable condition damage, support and power damage build on any of its elite specializations available before we start worrying about if every elite specialization has multiple viable endgame pve builds (as noted, when factoring for all game modes, it becomes evident that certain elite specializations were made with other game modes in mind).

Engineer has a condi and power dps build on Holosmith and a support build on Scrapper for pve. It has those 3 bases covered and is lacking a boon support build to some extent.

As to trinity pigeon holding, yeah that ship sailed with HoT and raids for challenging PvE endgame content. Ever since dedicated heal supports were added as well as boon supports, this game has a soft trinity.

[gateless gate.8406]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:1 chrono1druid1 bs7 dpsSkipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

2 extra dps, no?

pugs still run double chrono double healer

And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

• one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
• when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:1 chrono1druid1 bs7 dpsSkipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok ?

We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The player I initially responded to was specifically talking about Gorseval, where you can pretty comfortably bring only one healer, even in pugs. That has zero to do with the idea of making quickness a 10-man buff. It's just a preference for that boss. Making quickness a 10 man buff would (generally) allow groups to bring one more pure DPS in place of their second chrono/QB, not two. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of the second extra DPS from (as it pertains to this idea, of removing the need for the second Chrono).

The issue you raise about support Chrono again becoming too powerful to the exclusion of other classes is a good point. There are several solutions. I believe Alacren and QB both do much higher DPS than supp Chrono, so possibly it may not even be a huge problem as it stands (ie, they may already offer that trade-off).

[melandru.3876]

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:1 chrono1druid1 bs7 dpsSkipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

2 extra dps, no?

pugs still run double chrono double healer

And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

• one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
• when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:1 chrono1druid1 bs7 dpsSkipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok ?

We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The player I initially responded to was specifically talking about Gorseval, where you can pretty comfortable bring only one healer, even in pugs. That has zero to do with the idea of making quickness a 10-man buff. It's just a preference for that boss. Making quickness a 10 man buff would (generally) allow groups to bring one more pure DPS in place of their second chrono/QB, not two. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of the second extra DPS from (as it pertains to this idea, of removing the need for the second Chrono).

The issue you raise about support Chrono again becoming too powerful to the exclusion of other classes is a good point. There are several solutions. I believe Alacren and QB both do much higher DPS than supp Chrono, so possible it may not even be a huge problem as it stands (ie, they may already offer that trade-off).

not once did i mention gors tho, you can check yourself by scrolling up. and, no edit either

[gateless gate.8406]

@melandru.3876 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:1 chrono1druid1 bs7 dpsSkipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

2 extra dps, no?

pugs still run double chrono double healer

And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

• one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
• when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:1 chrono1druid1 bs7 dpsSkipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok ?

We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The player I initially responded to was specifically talking about Gorseval, where you can pretty comfortable bring only one healer, even in pugs. That has zero to do with the idea of making quickness a 10-man buff. It's just a preference for that boss. Making quickness a 10 man buff would (generally) allow groups to bring one more pure DPS in place of their second chrono/QB, not two. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of the second extra DPS from (as it pertains to this idea, of removing the need for the second Chrono).

The issue you raise about support Chrono again becoming too powerful to the exclusion of other classes is a good point. There are several solutions. I believe Alacren and QB both do much higher DPS than supp Chrono, so possible it may not even be a huge problem as it stands (ie, they may already offer that trade-off).

not once did i mention gors tho, you can check yourself by scrolling up. and, no edit either

"Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be..."

I think you're responding to the wrong person.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@Cyninja.2954 said:As to trinity pigeon holding, yeah that ship sailed with HoT and raids for challenging PvE endgame content. Ever since dedicated heal supports were added as well as boon supports, this game has a soft trinity.

Not gonna argue previous point any further, but still wanted point out that by realeasing certain PoF specs (ones with both dmg and support capabilities) and diviner gear, I believe the devs do seem to want to return back to their original philosophy. I’ll remain optimistic, even if it might mean I’ll get disappointed later on.

~

On the original topic, I feel the need to say that the scrapper traitline is set up to be horribly selfish, whilst the gyro skills look ‘slapped on’ to give the spec some resemblance of a support role (with the only skills worth noting being function and bulwark gyro) - whatever support that currently comes out of scrapper actually comes mostly from core. It’s like a banner spellbreaker, where you could just play core itself for fairly minimal loss.

Unfortunately, scrapper was never sold to be a dedicated support espec and anet has apparently stuck to its guns, not having budged from this original design:

They bring a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the enegineer.For quickness/alacrity sharing, the question here is ‘does it thematically fit with scrapper?’ or, ‘on which current skills would they thematically fit?’. If nothing works, these two specific boons might have to wait until the next espec, while access to what I like to call ‘general boons’ (the usual 4-6) could be improved. If we leave both boons for the next espec, it could directly contend or work with boon chrono, which could be interesting development for future content.

There’s also the option of trying to force scrapper into the dedicated tank role (while providing healing), but it seems impossible seeing that the general utility of chronotank is irreplaceable at this point.

[Rico.6873]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Unfortunately, scrapper was never sold to be a dedicated support espec and anet has apparently stuck to its guns, not having budged from this original design:

They bring a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the engineer.For quickness/alacrity sharing, the question here is ‘does it thematically fit with scrapper?’ or, ‘on which current skills would they thematically fit?’. If nothing works, these two specific boons might have to wait until the next espec, while access to what I like to call ‘general boons’ (the usual 4-6) could be improved. If we leave both boons for the next espec, it could directly contend or work with boon chrono, which could be interesting development for future content.

There’s also the option of trying to force scrapper into the dedicated tank role (while providing healing), but it seems impossible seeing that the general utility of chronotank is irreplaceable at this point.

A Gyro that can be improved with a trait that grants either might/quickness/alicrity to 10 man bit by bit(slowly instead of instantly like the renevant can do for 5 man with might)Would be interesting to see yes

Would be interesting to see scrapper in the tank role, not sure how Anet could put scrapper in that roleDo see firebrand/scrapper in the tank role because they can share boons with their allies but thats it

Thematically Scrapper would look awesome as a tank, while still being able support their allies a bit with a ranged rezz(usefull if the healer is down and needs a instant rezz or help with a rezz for a quick save )

It looks great in my mind but I cant think of a way they could implant something like that without changing the hole classBest and easiest thing anet could do is giving the scrapper the option to be a dps class by making it possible in the trait section

They would still have their old powers for pvp/wvw but if they want to go dps they have to sacrifice their healing and tanking for it

[LadyKitty.6120]

@"Noodle Ant.1605" said:>On the original topic, I feel the need to say that the scrapper traitline is set up to be horribly selfish, whilst the gyro skills look ‘slapped on’ to give the spec some resemblance of a support role (with the only skills worth noting being function and bulwark gyro) - whatever support that currently comes out of scrapper actually comes mostly from core. It’s like a banner spellbreaker, where you could just play core itself for fairly minimal loss.This selfishness is the reason why Kitty's been running core engi instead of scrapper ever since she created her heal-engi build in october 2017. Only things Scrapper-spec provides is a bit of heals thru Rapid Regeneration+Medical Dispersion Field interaction and some barrier+damage redirection with Bulwark Gyro. And Function Gyro but Kitty's never really felt a need for ranged ress. Taking Explosions-trait line would help with might output and tiny bit of vulnerability and taking Tools reduces the toolbelt cooldowns, auto-self stun break and same self-quickness as scrapper. 15% cooldown reduction mightn't sound like much but it does help.Unfortunately, scrapper was never sold to be a dedicated support espec and anet has apparently stuck to its guns, not having budged from this original design:It's always been a bruiser build and will stay as such, even after revamps.For quickness/alacrity sharing, the question here is ‘does it thematically fit with scrapper?’ or, ‘on which current skills would they thematically fit?’. If nothing works, these two specific boons might have to wait until the next espec, while access to what I like to call ‘general boons’ (the usual 4-6) could be improved. If we leave both boons for the next espec, it could directly contend or work with boon chrono, which could be interesting development for future content.The general boon access would be improved simply by making Experimental Turrets-trait provide boons to 10 instead of current 5. But Kitty's been asking for that for over a year quite loudly but they haven't changed it (and actually nerfed heal-engi's boon output slightly with elixir changes as RIP Quickness from Toss Elixir U). Fury, regen, swiftness, protection and vigor outputs are decent as of now but might output could use slight improvements by making Blasting Zone provide 2 stacks of might (instead of current 1 stack) and/or increasing HGH's base might duration to 20 seconds. As of now, keeping might even above 20 requires some very precise blasting, using Acid Bomb for blast+HGH might (which also tosses the engi 550 backwards, kinda problematic) on top of piano gameplay and relying on Flame Turret to stay alive for 6 stacks of might uptime. And heal-engi is also quite slow at getting the might stacks started compared to other healers (though they last long once you get them on ppls).There’s also the option of trying to force scrapper into the dedicated tank role (while providing healing), but it seems impossible seeing that the general utility of chronotank is irreplaceable at this point.You know, heal-engi is actually quite good at this utility-thing while tanking. For ex. at ranged Deimos it can drop Rifle turret at middle when boss starts to provide high fury for sub thru the fight and when you move to range, you can keep on shooting elixirs and Infusion Bomb there to provide might, vigor, regen and swiftness. Meanwhile chrono can oilkite for you while throwing wells at the middle and also using SoI between the oils.The main reason why everyone requires a chronotank is that people think it's the only class with suitable tank utilities and that other classes can't counter the mechanics a chrono needs to deal with or other supports' support ability is somehow nerfed when tanking. And these "reasons" are false as pretty much any support can tank any boss if you know how to do it (Kitty has tanking videos on pretty much all support builds). Chrono simply has somewhat easier time at it than others. And having to stand still through knockbacking mechanics also isn't a problem for likes of tank-elementalist, engineer, herald or thief.