Hard skill division for PvE and PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Hard skill division for PvE and PvP

DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 3, 2019 in PVP

Hey there,
I was wondering what people think about it. GW2 is an MMO and Balance Updates often seem to be treated as if it was MOBA.
A lot of PvP changes affect PvE meta also.
What are your opinions on HARD dividing skill-balancing for PvE and PvP?
PvP sometimes needs a lot more changes to seek class balance.

Example:

  • In PvE there is a full set of boons, buffs, other things that stack
  • In PvE there is a set number of condis, boons, etc.
  • fixed Boon/Condi number in particular skills PvE/PvP
  • damage differences and CC

I know this already exists in game, but on a very small scale.

So, what are your thoughts?

Hard skill division for PvE and PvP 17 votes

Yes, we need hard skill division
41%
Allarius.5670choovanski.5462vVe.4276Stallic.2397DoomNexus.5324Hylo.1968Serenity.6304 7 votes
No, we don't need hard skill division
41%
flog.3485Exedore.6320ArthurDent.9538Mikezaner.1524otto.5684Zenix.6198lisica.6583 7 votes
Other (write below)
17%
DonArkanio.6419White Kitsunee.4620Paradoxoglanis.1904 3 votes

Comments

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019
    Other (write below)

    Unless they completely rework/redesign elite specs, trail lines, and some weapon/utility skills, any attempt at "balance" will fall short of making gw2 a good competitive pvp game. We are stuck with what we have and whatever updates come out likely will never fix the fundamental issues with class balance. I would be in favor of hard dividing all parts of pvp and pve but given the amount of effort that requires means it will never happen.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019
    No, we don't need hard skill division

    There are so many classes and builds in the game (even though they are mostly in viable). Even the most dedicated would have hard time knowing the differences for more than 2-3 classes. PvP and PvE skill splits should be kept at an extreme minimum. And reminder, not everyone PvPs regularly. Creating major differences would create a large entry barrier.

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes, we need hard skill division

    I wish they would have done this since release, just like they did in the original guild wars 1. There you even have some skills that do completely different things instead of just tweaking the numbers. And on a sidenote, for a lot of players GW1 is still the best PvP in an MMO actually. I'm even on a discord server that's purely there for one pvp mode in gw1 because it would otherwise be dead unfortunately. Anyway.
    For example:
    "For Great Justice!":

    • PvE version: "Shout. (20 seconds.) You gain 100% more adrenaline."
    • PvP Version: "Shout. (8 seconds.) You gain 1 extra strike of adrenaline whenever you hit with an attack."

    Or Aegis:

    • PvE version: "Enchantment Spell. Enchants all party members within earshot (5...10...11 seconds). 50% chance to block."
    • PvP version: "Enchantment Spell. (1...3...3 seconds). Target party member cannot be targeted by hostile spells. Attacks against this party member fail. Cannot self-target."

    While this ofc is a bit more to remember, I think if you only play one main class for PvP for instance, it is fairly easy. Even for 2 or 3 it isn't too terrible, it's not like every skill does a completely different thing, but there are just a few key skills that would need such a treatment desperately.
    I mean if this could have been done in guild wars 1 where you had literally well over 1000 skills, where EVERYONE had access to almost every other skill (by choosing and swapping a secondary class and accessing their skills as well), it really can't be that hard even for a casual GW2 player to remember like 10 skills having 2 versions.
    And if you are someone like me who only plays sPvP (well I occasionally raid when some friends are running or roam around in WvW but ye.. 90% of my time is spent in sPvP) it would be very appreciated.

    I also find your phrasing hilarious.

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    A lot of PvP changes affect PvE meta also.

    A lot of us PvP players like to think it's exactly the other way around.. Like Anet balances for raids and stuff and then tries to adjust the numbers a bit so it doesn't get too horrific for PvP.

  • As it stands now, ANet can split numbers but not mechanics for skills. For example, how many stacks of confusion and how much damage confusion does per tick, but not whether a skill inflicts confusion or some other condition (and not how confusion works). That makes it rather unhelpful to hard split every skill & trait, while it would dramatically increase the workload.

    If they had that many resources to throw at the issue, I'd rather that they balanced more often than try to work out the perfect balance by splitting. Whatever they come up with, the players are going to adjust rapidly to take advantage of synergies, so I think increasing ANet's responsiveness would be more useful to all the game modes.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (write below)

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    As it stands now, ANet can split numbers but not mechanics for skills. For example, how many stacks of confusion and how much damage confusion does per tick, but not whether a skill inflicts confusion or some other condition (and not how confusion works). That makes it rather unhelpful to hard split every skill & trait, while it would dramatically increase the workload.

    If they had that many resources to throw at the issue, I'd rather that they balanced more often than try to work out the perfect balance by splitting. Whatever they come up with, the players are going to adjust rapidly to take advantage of synergies, so I think increasing ANet's responsiveness would be more useful to all the game modes.

    What about changing the boom/Condi numbers? I see what you're saying but what if:

    • Swiftness in PvE: 33% bonus
    • Swiftness in PvP: 10% bonus

    • Protection in PvE: 33% bonus

    • Protection in PvP: 10% bonus

    • Superspeed numbers reduced in PvP

    Just to make the clear division between gamemodes where skills/effects in PvP don't provide the exact same numbers like on PvE.
    Boon / Condition effectiveness is actually very important and I think that while in PvE IT can be treated more loosely and big numbers are fine, PvP requires more control, and stacking big numbers is a problem.

    Just as a sidenote. I think that Blindness is one of the best designed Conditions in game - it makes you miss your next attack, and done, back to normal.
    I could see same treatment being applied to Poison, where in PvE IT can be stackable as a damage source, in PvP it is a Condition that reduces healing effects by 33%.

    This way we wouldn't have to make a list of skills functionality to remember. Starting with boon functionality per gamemode - see what happens - proceed.

  • Other (write below)

    Needs testing in an alternate game mode first.
    Aka please bring festival pvp to pvp anet Im Begging you.

  • @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    What about changing the boom/Condi numbers? I see what you're saying but what if:

    • Swiftness in PvE: 33% bonus
    • Swiftness in PvP: 10% bonus

    I believe that yes, that's something they could do.

    My larger point is that it's time consuming to establish the baselines for such changes, because there are all sorts of ramifications (altered synergies etc). If they have "that much" time, I'd rather they balance|adjust more often rather than going micro.

    Just to make the clear division between gamemodes where skills/effects in PvP don't provide the exact same numbers like on PvE.
    Boon / Condition effectiveness is actually very important and I think that while in PvE IT can be treated more loosely and big numbers are fine, PvP requires more control, and stacking big numbers is a problem.

    I think always the best example is confusion: on launch, it was strictly a "damage upon action" skill. It had not enough impact in PvE (as most creatures don't "act" that often) and too much impact at lower tiers of PvP (as humans can't seem to help "acting"). At the time, splitting the amount of damage per confusion stack would have been interesting.

    But even if they had, that "humans can't seem to help acting" principle still holds true: top tier players would cleanse before using skills under heavy confusion; lower tier players wouldn't. Finding a fair balance would still be tricky even just for PvP.

    That's why I'm adamant that if there is more time for balancing, it would serve the mode better to change balance more often (following any massive change with tweaks). It still wouldn't be enough; it will, however, change the dynamic. It won't prevent trash builds; it would just reduce the period under which they dominate.

    with boon functionality per gamemode

    That they won't be able to do (not with their current tech). Poison has to be DoT+burst in all modes; it can't be DoT only in one mode and a little of each in another.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    how about they introduce more toughness and condi clears to pve so damage output is somewhat the same in both modes. its easier to control ttk in pve with new mechanics rather then adjusting every single professions traits and skills.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭
    No, we don't need hard skill division

    Power Creep needs nerfed in PvE too; a lot of PvE content has been trivialized by it. Once a nerf in PvE happens, PvP won't be so bad. The problem is that players have become accustomed to the current level of PvE power creep and will only part with it when they're dragged away kicking and screaming. So devs won't do it.

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