Should ranged targets in raiding be nerfed, when all the ranged builds are nerfed into the ground?

[Rico.6873]

There might come a day when melee > ranged and no one will take ranged because its not worth itMeaning no classes for any ranged mechanics of a raid like the orbs in Gorseval

Think Areanet will nerf any ranged mechanics if they hard nerfed all the ranged builds?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Rico.6873 said:There might come a day when melee > ranged and no one will take ranged because its not worth it

Melee already outperforms ranged due to 1 simple reason: stacking, support and boon sharing range. Peope still use ranged builds and abilities for certain content.

The basic premise of your assumption and question is faulty.

[Nephalem.8921]

The only nerfed ranged build was staff weaver. RifleDE is still super strong. Same for scourge compared to how safe it is to play scourge. You should change your strategy if you have problems with gorseval orbs.Never understood why bad pugs send dps on them when druid pet and warr are enough.

[Sutepun.9450]

Ranged cleave is usually not necessary for the majority of bosses, and even if they were necessary there are still effective alternatives compared to "nerfed" ranged DPS (assuming staff weaver was the offending class), such as guardian scepter, necro axe, mesmer phantasms, revenant sword 2 and sword 4, or engineer rifle/grenades.

[maxwelgm.4315]

There is nothing wrong with ranged damage, and there is nothing wrong with damage in general. If anything, not only the potential DPS but also the auto attacking DPS of most classes are immensely overperforming and are more than enough for anything except a handful of bosses.

Melee is not used because melee builds are better in any way whatsoever, but only because the game enforces stacking in order to share useful boons and unique enhancements. If anything this is another "real" problem we can point out, that the highest portion of DPS actually comes from passively obtaining said boons instead of the rotation itself. When having 2 players of very specific classes next to you means a difference of more than 20k on your total DPS of about 30k, are you really doing that much?

[Nephalem.8921]

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:There is nothing wrong with ranged damage, and there is nothing wrong with damage in general. If anything, not only the potential DPS but also the auto attacking DPS of most classes are immensely overperforming and are more than enough for anything except a handful of bosses.

Melee is not used because melee builds are better in any way whatsoever, but only because the game enforces stacking in order to share useful boons and unique enhancements. If anything this is another "real" problem we can point out, that the highest portion of DPS actually comes from passively obtaining said boons instead of the rotation itself. When having 2 players of very specific classes next to you means a difference of more than 20k on your total DPS of about 30k, are you really doing that much?

Thats just totally wrong. Quickness and alacrity are not that much. Most classes can even stack might quite good on themselves if specced for it without losing a lot of dps. There are solo builds doing 23k+ dps and only like 32-35k with boons and conditions so the difference is not that big. Nobody would take supports if it wouldnt matter.

The difference between using the perfect rotation and pressing skills at random is enormous. Best example is the dh. How often do you actually see a dh with 30-40k at KC in pugs or people with close to 40k at vg first phase. Alacrity does almost nothing if people are not using rotations.

Melee builds are superior to most ranged builds. Only outliers were staff weaver which got removed from the game and rifle DE which is strong but hard to use on most bosses and this is fine. There is currently not a single raidboss were ranged dps is required. It only simplifies stuff like taking scourges/DE for qadim instead of 3 healers.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:There is nothing wrong with ranged damage, and there is nothing wrong with damage in general. If anything, not only the potential DPS but

also

the auto attacking DPS of most classes are immensely overperforming and are more than enough for anything except a handful of bosses.

Melee is not used because melee builds are better in any way whatsoever, but only because the game enforces stacking in order to share useful boons and unique enhancements. If anything this is another "real" problem we can point out, that the highest portion of DPS actually comes from passively obtaining said boons instead of the rotation itself. When having 2 players of very specific classes next to you means a difference of more than 20k on your total DPS of about 30k, are you really doing that much?

Thats just totally wrong. Quickness and alacrity are not that much. Most classes can even stack might quite good on themselves if specced for it without losing a lot of dps. There are solo builds doing 23k+ dps and only like 32-35k with boons and conditions so the difference is not that big. Nobody would take supports if it wouldnt matter.

The difference between using the perfect rotation and pressing skills at random is enormous. Best example is the dh. How often do you actually see a dh with 30-40k at KC in pugs or people with close to 40k at vg first phase. Alacrity does almost nothing if people are not using rotations.

Melee builds are superior to most ranged builds. Only outliers were staff weaver which got removed from the game and rifle DE which is strong but hard to use on most bosses and this is fine. There is currently not a single raidboss were ranged dps is required. It only simplifies stuff like taking scourges/DE for qadim instead of 3 healers.

I agree with part of your assessment, and disagree with the rest.

First off, the reason no ranged builds are taken is: most classes do not have two ranged weapons which perform as best in slot damage alternatives. Just as there is builds that use melee and ranged weapons (DH, Reaper, Scourge, Weaver, Engineer, Condi Souldbeast, etc.) because they do not have two best in slot melee weapons available, the only difference being that ranged weapons work in melee range most of the time. The second reason is: stacking is just easier with everybody sticking together due to how support mechanics work in this game and their range.

Support boons easily make up 50% of a classes total damage output(Fury, Might, Quickness and Alacrity) depending on how reliant that class is on auto attacks and skill cooldowns for its damage. Quickness and Alacrity make up slightly less than half of this bonus. This has nothing to do with how well a player performs his rotation but is a flat damage increase for any player.

Rotation makes up the difference between a great player, good player and terrible player, but every one of them will be enhanced equally by support boons. Those classes which push 23k solo provide themselves with a vast majority of the support boons required. No class in this game reaches 20+k dps without giving itsself might, fury, quickness and/or alacrity.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Rotation makes up the difference between a great player, good player and terrible player, but every one of them will be enhanced equally by support boons.

No. Alacrity only benefits players using their skills. It doesn't benefit bad players that much. Fury and Might are indeed just statboosts and affect everyone the same if they would use the right build which they don't always do.The benefit of quickness varies a lot depending on class but is probably the strongest boost and should affect everyone about the same. Reaper reaches 20k+ solo without fury and alacrity but thats the only profession with a 50% crit boost so that one doesn't count.You could also just stack at range which you sometimes already do because it makes stuff braindead like deimos.

I maybe overreacted a bit when i read "the highest portion of DPS actually comes from passively obtaining said boons instead of the rotation itself" while the boons are part of a rotation most of the time and might is not that easy to maintain in organized groups in fractals for example. I really like the active boon system otherwise this would be another wow where boons last 30min+ and support equals healer.

[Talindra.4958]

If you are playing in a group team environment, pls stack as much as you can unless the group decided to range together. Being a support, nothing worse than seeing one player at north one at far south one at east or west.. and everyone hp is low dps is the same as a support role etc. ??U have to understand, it is easier to res a down guy when they fall right on your feet.. and the support skills/casts has limited range to cover and CD on skills once used on 1 player.. it wont be available for sometimes, for optimum performance.. pls stack and hug each other .. stick together :) you can dodge out and dodge in..