Balthazar in PoF — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balthazar in PoF

Crystal Black.8190Crystal Black.8190 Member ✭✭✭

I don't really understand some of the story points around him.

Balthazar wants to kill the dragons and safe the world from them, but that's actually what will destroy them, because of magical imbalance. The human gods don't seem to care at all about the world they invested hundreds of years in, except balthazar. Kormirs argument seems hollow. If they would stop Balthazar from killing the dragons it could create another crystal desert or worse, so they just will let it happen which will destroy the world for sure. Kormir is basically telling us that they would prefer a destroyed world than a world that gets a little bit damaged in a fight.

So if Balthazar's goal is to kill the dragons why is he attacking civilian settlements? I can understand the fights between his forged and the awakened, because they probably hindered him at executing his plan, but what does he gain from attacking innocent humans? He is their god, couldn't he just go to them and ask for their support? He could even recruit the sunspears because he has to fight awakened anyway and imprisoned joko. Why isn't he portrait as the savior that imprisoned joko and liberates elona from him?

As a god why doesn't he know that killing dragons destroys the world? He must has been around for a long time and while the forgotten, glint, the asura etc. figured that out the gods didn't? Or did he have a plan to protect Tyria from the magic that gets released from a dead dragon?

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Comments

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The issue lies in the understanding of the All.
    "According to Ogden Stonehealer, the All is undefinable as beings can only grasp portions of it, and even the Elder Dragons are small relative to the All. Beings can only see certain layers of the Mists, the Elders, and Tyria while anything beyond that is hidden from their senses." ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All )

    the second issue is the consideration how allmighty a deity is. We know that anyone can rise to godhood (Kormir, Grenth) and also a deity like an elder dragon can be taken over by a lesser dragon. So just like normal beings, it can be asusmed that a god can not understand the all as well.

    The all also goes beyond Tyria and the destruction of Tyria is not the worse thing that can happen to the All. It would likely be insignificant to the bigger picture
    The last thing is that Gods feel elevated beyond regular beings.
    So why is this of importance?

    Balthazar is the god of war. He doesnt care about one being more or less. His true philosphy is never shared (afaik), but most gods of war sees destruction as a way to cleanse the existence of all and recreate it. However he doesnt understand the all fully as well. So it is simular to the debate between the orders, how to tackle things. most Gods do not think it is wise to interfere with the elder dragons as they do not hold a proper solution or cause it would cost more then it would be desired.
    Balthazar disagrees, he sees the destruction as an opportunity to create something new. With him as the only all powerfull deity (after he was abbanded by the other Gods).

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The gods do care, but they recognize the hazards of staying around. If they stuck around, they'd have to directly confront the Elder Dragons. If they won, the world would die; if they lost, the world would be destroyed. Them staying was a literal lose-lose situation, so they departed to look for a new inhabitable world to bring Tyrians to while the Forgotten went with their plan to replace the Elder Dragons with more benevolent beings.

    I agree the evidence points towards the gods being unable to solve the threat of the dragons themselves. I'm not sure it points towards them meaningfully caring. Even if direct intervention was out of the question, they had other aid they could offer: the Eternals, the Reapers, hell, even just the right information before it was too late. How much better would our odds be now if they'd sent an avatar and clued Kryta in to the fact that Glint had a plan? If the kingdom worked as a willing partner towards developing it? At the very least, we probably would've been more careful with our prospective replacements- maybe, say, not getting two out of the three of them accidentally killed?

    And then there's the afterlives. No Elder Dragons there, but at minimum Grenth and Kormir abandoned the souls in their trust to the kinds of enemies that we know the gods were willing to ward against. If it wasn't for Desmina fighting tooth and nail to avoid submitting, it's very possible Dhuum could've brought an end to Tyria faster than the dragons would've. What was stopping the gods from consolidating realms, and leaving one or two of their number behind to watch over the dead while the rest went seeking?

    That doesn't read like the gods caring. It reads like them writing off Tyria, and the portion of humanity encompassed by it and the adjoining afterlives, as a lost cause. I'm willing to believe that they might come back to check if there's anything left to save once they find a new place, but the fact that they aren't taking seemingly straightforward measures to make that scenario more likely suggests it doesn't make too much difference to them. Kormir's own journal suggests that whatever they're doing, it's explicitly more important to them than the fate of humans.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    -snip-

    There is a certain level of indifference that is no doubt part of the gods being individuals of a different plane of existence. They certainly could have done more, but at the same time, humanity had everything they needed.... until Abaddon blew it up (Arah vaults). There's also that level of "they don't want humanity to depend on them by solving all their problems" attitude they have.

    As to them lending the Reapers and other avatars - they were needed to continue guarding the afterlives after the gods left. While Kormir's Sanctum did suffer an immediate issue of being overrun, the Sanctum recovered enough by A Star to Guide Us according to Nenah. I would also very much disagree that "Grenth and Kormir abandoned the souls in their trust to the kinds of enemies that we know the gods were willing to ward against". While it's true the Sanctum had an issue, there's no evidence that other places did - except for when Dhuum escaped and Kralkatorrik ravaged the Mists. Even before Grenth left, there were issues like the Eater of Souls in the Underworld as we could see during the Halloween underworld quests in GW1, so our trip to the Domain of the Lost and the "issues" there were par the course even when gods were around.

    We also do not know that the gods knew Glint had a plan. The Forgotten knew of it, yes, but did they ever tell the gods who had left the world by over a millennia by the time the Forgotten began actively working on that plan?

    The only fault I see of the gods, is that of Dhuum and Balthazar. But when they left, they were both still imprisoned. With individuals watching the situation that had means to prevent further escape.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From Glint's memory crystals, it does seem to me that the gods had a pretty good idea.

    That said, the secrecy isn't just on the gods - Glint herself could have sent some sort of envoy to Kryta to let them know what she was doing. Instead, she relies on the Forgotten, the Brotherhood, the Zephyrites, and the Exalted, while apparently explicitly keeping her activities secret from Kryta (the Zephyrites explicitly avoided recruiting from Kryta, for instance).

    I suspect that Glint was aware that there were still problems in Kryta and that revealing her plans to Kryta might mean revealing them to the White Mantle, which might then attempt to co-opt them in some manner, or making her plans known to the Krytans might have lead to Zhaitan or another Elder Dragon learning of them, or some other disaster foreseen through her power of prophecy. Whatever her motives, Glint certainly seems to have wanted to keep her plans on the down-low, and it's possible that the gods not filling humans in was due to Glint's wishes.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019

    As draxynnic said, Glint is also pretty guilty of not telling the mortals everything that she knew. The Spirits of the Wild are 'guilty' for not helping the norn out more besides telling them to get away from Jormag and stop fighting him. This is usually, as the post above theorises, for a pretty good reason. (We also have evidence to suggest that the Gods, in fact, know more than Glint did).

    It's pretty much a trope of incredibly powerful vaguely friendly beings to not help and provide all the answers.

    And yes, I would say that the Gods realms are stabalising now, as evidenced by Nenah saying the Sanctum is getting better, and the Dhuum problem was always going to rear it's head again, that's been something that's been a threat since GW1, those that Grenth left in the Underworld still had the tools and plans to deal with the problem, including the sacrifice of the reapers, his own companions who helped him against Dhuum in the first place. I would hazard to guess that Melandru, Lyssa and Dwayna's realms are still fine and stable and were the entire time. The Dhuum problem was, as I said, an already existing issue and not something that came about because of the Gods departure, and the vulnerability of the Sanctum after Kormir's departure could be said to be a result of it being in the middle of the Realm of Torment still, and thus a holdover from Abaddon's fall.

    To be honest, as we saw from the start of the living world story Episode 6, Kralkatorrik was -specifically- flying through the God's realms. He was looking for them, Aurene and the Commander even questioned what he was doing and where he was going.

    So even if they had stayed in their realms they wouldn't have been able to avoid conflict with an Elder Dragon, which was their stated aim of leaving, not just withdrawing, so it stands to reason they theorised that it was possible an Elder Dragon could travel to the Mists to try and eat their magic, so they decided to leave their realms for now until that was no longer a possibility.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That is a valid consideration - it seems that the gods didn't actually leave their realms until after Balthazar left the Mists, even if most of them left before they found out that it was Balthazar. It's possible that they had some advance warning that one of the Elder Dragons was going to get into the Mists and go after the god realms, and that's why they evacuated when they did.

    Which may raise the possibility of them returning now that the Kralkatorrik situation has been resolved, although they might still be wary of Jormag and Stevebubbles.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, that's my thought. The timing just about adds up. They withdrew from the affairs of Tyria completely, and then only LATER, after Balthazar was stripped and imprisoned, did they actually leave their realms. The two are separate occurrences.

    It's possible in my view that whilst they didn't want Balthazar to get out, they saw it as a possibility that he might, then go after Elder Dragons and either kill them or be killed himself and thus his power to mistwalk transferred to an Elder Dragon, who would then use it and quickly hunt them down in their realms for their magic. So they did the logical thing and withdrew even further.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Something else that might fit the timing is that Glint's death might have been the trigger. Glint's army came from somewhere, after all - once Glint's spirit entered the Mists, the gods might have handed over responsibility for the defence of their former realms over to Glint. This still resulted in some chaos during the transition, naturally, but is different to out-and-out abandonment... and may have been the less bad option compared to the gods fighting it out with Kralkatorrik in the Mists.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Possibly! Like I've been saying for years on these forums, I'm hoping ArenaNet are not going to go the route of "uncaring gods" because that runs counter to their previous lore more than anything, and I'm stubbornly clinging to the "we've not seen the last of the gods" comment.

    It's not my fault they made one of the most absent parts of their lore amongst the most interesting.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    I don't get why people are confused about Balthazar and his motivations. He's the God of War. He is basically Ares. All you have to do is read some mythos to see what he's based upon and why he acts the way that he does.

    In the GW2 multiverse, Dwayna is his antithesis.

    Zeus even threatens Ares with the same fate in Iliad:
    Then looking at him darkly Zeus who gathers the clouds spoke to him:
    "Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar.
    To me you are the most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.
    Forever quarrelling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.
    And yet I will not long endure to see you in pain, since
    you are my child, and it was to me that your mother bore you.
    But were you born of some other god and proved so ruinous
    long since you would have been dropped beneath the gods of the bright sky."

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I don't get why people are confused about Balthazar and his motivations. He's the God of War. He is basically Ares. All you have to do is read some mythos to see what he's based upon and why he acts the way that he does.

    In the GW2 multiverse, Dwayna is his antithesis.

    His depiction in GW1 was probably closer to Athena than Ares. That's why gw1 vets dislike the change in personality. He went from a god of honorable combat and protector of the weak against malicious forces who had a bad temper, and was retconned into a brutal god of mindless slaughter and personal gain that was a spoiled manchild.

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  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I don't get why people are confused about Balthazar and his motivations. He's the God of War. He is basically Ares. All you have to do is read some mythos to see what he's based upon and why he acts the way that he does.

    In the GW2 multiverse, Dwayna is his antithesis.

    His depiction in GW1 was probably closer to Athena than Ares. That's why gw1 vets dislike the change in personality. He went from a god of honorable combat and protector of the weak against malicious forces who had a bad temper, and was retconned into a brutal god of mindless slaughter and personal gain that was a spoiled manchild.

    SPOILERS FOR LS4:
    This is explained in lore, that Balthazar was always a lie, even in the days of GW1, it was just a religion as corrupt as any other. To understand this, read Zafira's commentary on the matter in the short stories that came before the release of War Eternal.

    Yes, the developers decided to retcon it, However, it is their multiverse, and their lore, and their choice.

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  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Zafirah's story explains Balthazar's creed in a positive light, though.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I don't get why people are confused about Balthazar and his motivations. He's the God of War. He is basically Ares. All you have to do is read some mythos to see what he's based upon and why he acts the way that he does.

    In the GW2 multiverse, Dwayna is his antithesis.

    His depiction in GW1 was probably closer to Athena than Ares. That's why gw1 vets dislike the change in personality. He went from a god of honorable combat and protector of the weak against malicious forces who had a bad temper, and was retconned into a brutal god of mindless slaughter and personal gain that was a spoiled manchild.

    SPOILERS FOR LS4:
    This is explained in lore, that Balthazar was always a lie, even in the days of GW1, it was just a religion as corrupt as any other. To understand this, read Zafira's commentary on the matter in the short stories that came before the release of War Eternal.

    Yes, the developers decided to retcon it, However, it is their multiverse, and their lore, and their choice.

    I have read Zafirah's, and Zafirah's commentary tells exactly the opposite of what you're saying about the religion being corrupt. Nor does it mention anything about the days of GW1.

    In Zafirah's Requiem, she felt a presence of divinity. A presence that Aurene resembles, but Balthazar did not. This was not because it was all a lie, but because Balthazar was replaced as god of war and had fallen from grace.

    The implication being that the Zaishen had not been praying to Balthazar, but his replacement, this entire time, and his replacement was closer to Balthazar's GW1 tenets and actions (as Aurene is) than Balthazar post-fall.

    If anything, Zafirah's Requiem fixes and subverts the retcon to Balthazar a bit.

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  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Zafirah's story explains Balthazar's creed in a positive light, though.

    His creed, not himself. The point is that the followers were blinded by the creed and couldn't see the real being until he literally walked around in front of them burning everything they love to the ground and not caring about anything.

    The story in there & in War Eternal is that the creed is valuable and redeeming, but Balthazar himself was a lost cause.

    The mistake that people make is thinking that he was ever any different when the only time we actually meet him in person is in LS3 and PoF. You can think all you want about any god, it doesn't mean it will be the reality if they ever visit your world.

    Legend is just legend, and second-hand accounts are unreliable, perhaps even those of the other gods.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    His creed, not himself. The point is that the followers were blinded by the creed and couldn't see the real being until he literally walked around in front of them burning everything they love to the ground and not caring about anything.

    It's more than just his creed though:

    Then I felt something. I didn't know what it was at first, but it felt strangely familiar to me. A power. A presence. Had I felt it before? Had it always been there?

    But something was wrong. He stood before me, tall and imposing, power radiating from his physical form...but this power was different from what I had felt all those years before. His voice dissonant from the one I heard within me.

    And as to the whole "couldn't see the real being until he literally walked around in front of them" is also incorrect. Balthazar had walked among mortals in the past. That was when his creed was written.

    So Balthazar's creed was established when Balthazar walked among men, and Zafirah felt a presence after Balthazar had lost his divinity that mirrored that creed but did not match Balthazar himself.

    The mistake that people make is thinking that he was ever any different when the only time we actually meet him in person is in LS3 and PoF. You can think all you want about any god, it doesn't mean it will be the reality if they ever visit your world.

    The only time players meet him. But not the only time humans, be they living or dead had met him.

    There is a mighty big difference. The creeds, the scriptures, and all the rest - those were first-hand accounts, written by those who met Balthazar personally, writing down Balthazar's words and actions. Not second-hand or made up.

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  • this gives an interesting insight, so we have BalthazarGW1(replacement, honorable) and BalthazarGW2(OldDestructionManchild)
    when was balthazar replaced?
    if the zaishen of gw1 worshipped the replacement, did that mean balthazar was imprisoned before gw1 and kormir is only telling a secondhand story about how he was imprisoned?
    Seeing as how he entered tyria holding his fathers head, the one arriving was probably BalthazarGW2.

    i would have to look through all the information, but some of you here may know some details from memory.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    You’ve got the timeline mixed up. Balthazar was imprisoned after the Gods withdrew after Kormirs ascension. So he’s been imprisoned and replaced from anywhere between 10 to 200 years.

    The sequence of events is roughly as follows:

    • Kormir replaces Abaddon
    • The Gods limit contact with Tyria
    • The Gods decide to leave their realms in the Mists to avoid fighting the dragons.
    • Balthazar objects to this, is defeated and stripped of his power.
    • The Gods leave one by one, possibly including Balthazar’s replacement.
    • Kormir eventually leaves as well as seen in Path of Fire.

    Given Gods are higher beings and probably operate on a different perspective of time, my personal assumption is that Balthazar has been imprisoned for the majority of the time since after the events of GW1 and the Gods left 1 by 1 over a period of 200-250 years up until Kormir also leaves, being the last to linger.

    The crucial thing here is Balthazar’s replacement, because if he has been then the divine power that the Zaishen, Zafirah and even the human commander if they picked blessed by Balthazar feel is NOT Balthazar’s, but the new God of War, and that’s been the case for every human who thought they had been blessed by Balthazar for a couple of centuries.

  • i know that last part is crucial, thats the whole point of thinking here, for how long have the zaishen been worshipping balthazar, dont the zaishen have that honor code since their beginning?, i dont know when the zaishen order was established, but its before nightfall for sure, as sousuke and jin in early nightfall are zaishen too.

    are we sure balthazar's objection wasnt before abaddon's defeat?, reading this dialogue that kormir has in POF, it could very well mean this whole angry balthazar event happened between 0AE and 1070.
    is it possible maybe they imprisoned abaddon, years later they learn of the elder dragons and want to leave, but balthazar objects, but this time they have a replacement for balthazar, and actually know how to make that 'gift' they gave kormir to absorb the power, so they stripled balthazar and replaced him, and this new Balthazar2 is the one the zaishen refer to.
    and kormir is just telling a second hand story of balthazars angerpoint but wasnt actually there when it actually happened.
    hmm, the scriptures of balthazar look honorable and date from before abaddon's fall, but wasnt it mentioned somewhere that the shackles of abadon that balthazar made where painful, so the balthazar that created them was evil, so balthazar was replaced after the fall.

    just trying to find some evidence for the idea that the balthazar we face in gw2 is not the same as the one from gw1 and that the gw1 balthazar was his honorable replacement and the one in gw2 was the original one

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
    this gives an interesting insight, so we have BalthazarGW1(replacement, honorable) and BalthazarGW2(OldDestructionManchild)
    when was balthazar replaced?
    if the zaishen of gw1 worshipped the replacement, did that mean balthazar was imprisoned before gw1 and kormir is only telling a secondhand story about how he was imprisoned?
    Seeing as how he entered tyria holding his fathers head, the one arriving was probably BalthazarGW2.

    i would have to look through all the information, but some of you here may know some details from memory.

    BalthazarGW1 was still a good guy and embodied the better traits of the god of war. BalthazarGW2 fell from grace sometime after GW1 and was until HoT imprisoned in the Mists, striped of his divinity, and outright replaced by some unknown character that embodies the better traits of BalthazarGW1.

    The devout like Zafirah or even a human PC who chose Balthazar as their patron god are praying and receiving divine aid/guidance from this unknown replacement. Unknowingly up until Balthazar's reveal and death, they continued to assume it was from Balthazar.

    I imagine with the death of Balthazar getting around Tyria and the Zaishen and similar followers of the god of war still getting feedback from 'something', they'll realize someones still out there.

    I'm kinda disappointed we didn't run into him/her or the other gods during our mist hoping shenanigans with Kralkatorrik. Though that's something we can probably look forward to in the upcoming living stories.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    What we need to keep in mind about the Zaishen Order is that in GW2 times it consists (or consisted) of more than just human worshipers of Balthazar. Prior to Scarlet's attack on Lion's Arch, we saw many nonhuman Zaishen training at Fort Marriner, but all the Zaishen disappeared from LA after the attack.

    As per the info Ree Soesbee provided in a GuildMag interview: "The Zaishen still hold tournaments and serve to honor and protect the holy places, but now they honor more than Balthazar alone. They honor the Spirit of Bear, and the Eternal Alchemy's place in chaos and strife; they revere charr heroes as well as sylvari's dreams of chivalry and courage."

    It sadly remains unknown whether nonhuman Zaishen still exist or if they were all wiped out in the Battle for Lion's Arch with only human members remaining. It would be interesting if the story ever touched on the fates of the nonhuman Zaishen and, if any of them survived, what they felt about their human comrades' decision to go fight for Balthazar rather than continue the duty of holding tournaments and protecting holy places.

    As for Balthazar, narrative designer Connor Fallon has pointed out the following for the narrative team's reasons to write Balthazar the way they did in S3 and PoF: "I'll jump in for 2 about Balth, and point out that he entered the canon he was carrying his father's severed head. Humans viewed him as the god of honor, and in some ways his refusal to back away from confronting the dragons IS honorable... but he was always ruthless." So, as far as the current writers are concerned, the GW2 lore of Orr on Balthazar weighs more heavily than the GW1 lore about him. This answer doesn't make it completely clear, but does seem to suggest, that Balthazar may have been the cause of his father's death unless the ruthlessness is simply about carrying the severed head of your parent around. It would be interesting to learn more about Balthazar and Menzies's parents, why Balthazar ended up with his father's head and why he carried it so prominently when he first stepped into Tyria, and what originally caused the rivalry between him and Menzies.

    Likewise, we know from historical records that Balthazar slew the old ritualist Kaolai, who had bested him in a game of Nui, in a fit of anger, and it was specifically mentioned that Balthazar inducting Kaolai into Tahnakai Temple was "a rare gesture of sportsmanship" from him. This doesn't mean that Balthazar didn't have some good behavior from time to time, as at least his follower Queen Yasamin's ghost was quick to point out in Siren's Landing: "He came to visit his reliquary, and I was the first to greet him. He was gracious and asked me to maintain the reliquary, but when he left, it went still." In this moment Balthazar really didn't need to be gracious; he may have been demanding of the queen and the other ghosts, and yet he chose to act respectfully towards her. It makes me wish we'd seen more of this nicer side of Balthazar beyond his Lazarus act, Aurene not reacting in a hostile manner to him at first when he saved her from Destroyers (so she must have sensed his true self beyond the mursaat disguise), his initial interactions with Marjory and Yasamin, and him choosing to spare Rytlock out of gratitude for freeing him in the first PoF encounter.

    It would've helped if Forged had continued to be a presence in Season 4 to shed some light on Balthazar's personality, their reactions to him returning a changed man, whether the Eternals were already following a new deity of conflict at this point but may have been disillusioned due to gods abandoning them and welcoming back their old master, and why Balthazar felt compelled to brainwash even his loyal Eternals to follow through with his campaign. The Forged's lack of appearance throughout the season was rather puzzling to me; even with the explanation given about the Awakened defeating them, I can't imagine war veterans with millennia of combat experience against the Shadow Army and other threats being fully bested by relatively newbie-ish Awakened, especially when the hinted-at General of the Burning Forest from Devona/Herald's writings never made an appearance in game so it seems there may have originally been plans to expand the General's role and perhaps have him either appear on PoF maps or set him up as the leader of the Forged after Balthazar's demise.

    I still hold out hope, as unlikely as it is at this point, that we may yet meet some surviving Eternals and Forged one day to explore the aforementioned matters more, perhaps if they ever follow through with Linsey Murdock's suggestions that there's more to Balthazar and the state of god of war than we've seen; a good way to explore this would be to introduce us to Balthazar's successor (as the gods should have stored that divinity somewhere as per lore with Abaddon and Dhuum lest it wreak havoc on the Mists even though Jessica Price's tweets about original S4 drafts mentioned that upon ascension Aurene would've uttered the phrase "I'm the new god of war" to truly balance magic so apparently Balthazar's divinity was just out there for the grabs in initial plans somehow). Perhaps the mention of Zafirah sensing a noble presence which differed from the moment she met with Balthazar suggests the existence of the new deity of conflict; if only the developers weren't worried about stepping on players' toes, lorewise the best candidate for godhood, IMHO, would be the GW1 hero to explain their absence from Tyria in its times of crisis, why they never became Vlast's champion, why they didn't continue diplomacy with charr after the success with Pyre's warband, why they didn't stop the centaur threat from spreading in Kryta, why they didn't assist Koss and Lonai in the assault on Joko and prevent Elona's fall into darkness and the massacre of Zhed's pride of centaurs, or why they didn't prevent Cantha from falling into the hands of the Ministry of Purity since Reiko's death. The game could even depict this hero-god with divine armor that obscures their features and sex and give them the Exalted Luminate's "dual voice" so it's unclear if the god in question is a he or she; they'd just need to find a good monicker for this new deity of conflict that they'd be using since their ascension to godhood. :)

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    I do feel the only real candidate that you can draw from old lore for the replacement God of War is the GW1 hero OR Rurik, and the latter only because he embodies the honourable and heroic ideals to a T, including up and dying to buy time for his people to escape, and realising that a war was lost and electing to retreat to save lives rather than fight on to a needless and bloody end - Which would also line up nicely for him to agree with the Gods withdrawing to avoid conflict with the Elder Dragons.

    If it was the GW1 hero, well, fully encasing armour with the male/female merged voice will be suitably out there, I feel, "Protector God", "God of Heroes", "The Nameless God", etcetc.

    But yes, ArenaNet's characterisation of Balthazar was... Iffy. They didn't need to go out of their way to say "Look guys Balthazar is ruthless" because their original lore already HAD that.

  • He was ruthless and warmongering in GW1 also?

  • @adormtil.1605 said:
    He was ruthless and warmongering in GW1 also?

    He tried to wipe out a village in revenge for a long forgotten breach of etiquette and when a Kaolai beat him in a game to spare them he killed the guy despite sparing the village as per the agreement. His having Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple is considered a rare gesture of sportsmanship in the Lore which indicates that he usually is more ruthless most of the time.

    The only notion that Balthazar fights to protect life came from the Zaishen Order when recruiting Zafirah in GW2 backstory... Long after he was captured by the Gods.

    Let it be noted that Zafirah felt a presence when she joined the Zaishen and they felt that presence themselves... That presence of course felt very different from Balthazar so there is someone who wants people to fight to protect life but it isn't and never was Balthazar.

    The only thing that changed about Balthazar was his code of honor which was simply about not running from a fight nor using deceit. Once the Gods imprisoned him via dishonorable methods and left him in the Mists for centuries with the Mirror of Lyssa he practically gave up on honor and went with using deceit to make his escape. Despite this he still let Rytlock out of the Mists for freeing him and later told him he'd spare his life alone showing that he still fulfills his debts.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    As mentioned Balthazar never cared for Tyria and any gestures of sportsmanship towards those who beat him at games are rare. The only changes resulting from his imprisonment was losing his reckless attitude and gaining pragmatism in his goals. His Priests the Zaishen drew on a much kinder source of power that protected others while he was imprisoned.

    The only God who was endangering Tyria out of apparent caring was Abaddon who was trying to generously share Magic for the sake of Tyrians only to have said Magic locked away upon which he waged war on the Gods over, got beaten at the Crystal Sea creating the Crystal Desert and Desolation and got locked up by mad Balthazar who never cared for Tyria but only wanted war.

    Imprisonment and Torment(due to Balthazar's cruelty when designing the chains of binding) drove Abaddon to Madness and desperate attempts to free himself such as eliminating the Emperor of Cantha, sinking Orr(which was dedicated to his jailers who tortured him), releasing the Titans serving Dhuum's Fury, making deals with Dhuum, allying with Menzies(who is just as mad as his half-brother Balthazar) and having the Margonites wipe out the Priests of the 5 Gods who left him in torment.

    Abaddon became the monster he was because of Balthazar's cruelty when imprisoning him and Abaddon's death awakening the Elder Dragons then revealed Balthazar's true colors resulting in the Gods imprisoning him(with less tormenting chains than Balthazar himself preferred for his enemies) and stripping him of power where they didn't concerning Abaddon. Balthazar's fate at our hands was long in coming.

    The story of Balthazar(including the part where he forged the chains of Abaddon who is described as being in Torment in his prison) reveals him to be the primary cause of GW1 and 2 including the Elder Dragon rise itself.

    Made sense course the Abaddon should have know of the elder dragons cause they would have awaken faster from him giving way to much magic to everyone, and then what would they do then since they would aloud everyone to still have to much magic.

  • the story about kaolai is maybe then oldbalthazar (who came from the mists with the head and who we fight in gw2) and that seems to take place a 1000 years before gw1, year 72. still trying to figure out when it should have happened, looks like somewhere between 72 and 1070.
    when was the zaishen order created?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    The only notion that Balthazar fights to protect life came from the Zaishen Order when recruiting Zafirah in GW2 backstory... Long after he was captured by the Gods.

    And from the Zaishen in GW1. And from the Eternals in GW1. And from the random followers of Balthazar in GW1. And from the Avatars of Balthazar in GW1.

    One thing in GW1 painted him with a dark side (Kaolai's story). But dozens if not hundreds talked about defending the weak, fighting with honor, and fighting the forces of evil (primarily demons).

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Telwyn.1630 said:

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    As mentioned Balthazar never cared for Tyria and any gestures of sportsmanship towards those who beat him at games are rare. The only changes resulting from his imprisonment was losing his reckless attitude and gaining pragmatism in his goals. His Priests the Zaishen drew on a much kinder source of power that protected others while he was imprisoned.

    The only God who was endangering Tyria out of apparent caring was Abaddon who was trying to generously share Magic for the sake of Tyrians only to have said Magic locked away upon which he waged war on the Gods over, got beaten at the Crystal Sea creating the Crystal Desert and Desolation and got locked up by mad Balthazar who never cared for Tyria but only wanted war.

    Imprisonment and Torment(due to Balthazar's cruelty when designing the chains of binding) drove Abaddon to Madness and desperate attempts to free himself such as eliminating the Emperor of Cantha, sinking Orr(which was dedicated to his jailers who tortured him), releasing the Titans serving Dhuum's Fury, making deals with Dhuum, allying with Menzies(who is just as mad as his half-brother Balthazar) and having the Margonites wipe out the Priests of the 5 Gods who left him in torment.

    Abaddon became the monster he was because of Balthazar's cruelty when imprisoning him and Abaddon's death awakening the Elder Dragons then revealed Balthazar's true colors resulting in the Gods imprisoning him(with less tormenting chains than Balthazar himself preferred for his enemies) and stripping him of power where they didn't concerning Abaddon. Balthazar's fate at our hands was long in coming.

    The story of Balthazar(including the part where he forged the chains of Abaddon who is described as being in Torment in his prison) reveals him to be the primary cause of GW1 and 2 including the Elder Dragon rise itself.

    Made sense course the Abaddon should have know of the elder dragons cause they would have awaken faster from him giving way to much magic to everyone, and then what would they do then since they would aloud everyone to still have to much magic.

    I missed that post by Mickey before, but this is incorrect. Abaddon was imprisoned with Balthazar's chains, yes, but he was evil before being imprisoned. Abaddon's fall is stated to have occurred over a long period of time before he rebelled during 1 BE. The other gods revoking the spread of magic was merely the "final straw", which resulted in Abaddon worsening a war between the Margonite humans and Forgotten and besieging the Gates of Heaven and wanting to kill the other gods to become "the one true god", and while we don't know what led to the the revoking of magic being a "final straw" moment, it certainly wasn't Abaddon's imprisonment in the heart of the Realm of Torment.

    Abaddon became a monster then was imprisoned by the five gods and chained by Balthazar's forged chains. Balthazar didn't make Abaddon a monster; Abaddon made Abaddon a monster.

    Also, "having the Margonites wipe out the Priests of the 5 Gods who left him in torment." this happened before Abaddon was imprisoned, if Mickey's referrring to when the Margonites desicrated the Temple of the Six by murdering the other fives' priesthood.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    He was gracious and asked me to maintain the reliquary, but when he left, it went still." In this moment Balthazar really didn't need to be gracious; he may have been > demanding of the queen and the other ghosts, and yet he chose to act respectfully towards her. It makes me wish we'd seen more of this nicer side of Balthazar > beyond his Lazarus act, Aurene not reacting in a hostile manner to him at first when he saved her from Destroyers (so she must have sensed his true self beyond the > > mursaat disguise), his initial interactions with Marjory and Yasamin, and him choosing to spare Rytlock out of gratitude for freeing him in the first PoF encounter.

    Also worth mention, in his path he easily handled notorious villains of Tyria.

    i - he liquidated the remains of white mantle.
    ii - he cared to hidden the last lazarus aspect in a very safe place, the Abbadon reliquary.
    iii - he tricked and imprisioned Palawa Jocko.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Telwyn.1630 said:

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    As mentioned Balthazar never cared for Tyria and any gestures of sportsmanship towards those who beat him at games are rare. The only changes resulting from his imprisonment was losing his reckless attitude and gaining pragmatism in his goals. His Priests the Zaishen drew on a much kinder source of power that protected others while he was imprisoned.

    The only God who was endangering Tyria out of apparent caring was Abaddon who was trying to generously share Magic for the sake of Tyrians only to have said Magic locked away upon which he waged war on the Gods over, got beaten at the Crystal Sea creating the Crystal Desert and Desolation and got locked up by mad Balthazar who never cared for Tyria but only wanted war.

    Imprisonment and Torment(due to Balthazar's cruelty when designing the chains of binding) drove Abaddon to Madness and desperate attempts to free himself such as eliminating the Emperor of Cantha, sinking Orr(which was dedicated to his jailers who tortured him), releasing the Titans serving Dhuum's Fury, making deals with Dhuum, allying with Menzies(who is just as mad as his half-brother Balthazar) and having the Margonites wipe out the Priests of the 5 Gods who left him in torment.

    Abaddon became the monster he was because of Balthazar's cruelty when imprisoning him and Abaddon's death awakening the Elder Dragons then revealed Balthazar's true colors resulting in the Gods imprisoning him(with less tormenting chains than Balthazar himself preferred for his enemies) and stripping him of power where they didn't concerning Abaddon. Balthazar's fate at our hands was long in coming.

    The story of Balthazar(including the part where he forged the chains of Abaddon who is described as being in Torment in his prison) reveals him to be the primary cause of GW1 and 2 including the Elder Dragon rise itself.

    Made sense course the Abaddon should have know of the elder dragons cause they would have awaken faster from him giving way to much magic to everyone, and then what would they do then since they would aloud everyone to still have to much magic.

    I missed that post by Mickey before, but this is incorrect. Abaddon was imprisoned with Balthazar's chains, yes, but he was evil before being imprisoned. Abaddon's fall is stated to have occurred over a long period of time before he rebelled during 1 BE. The other gods revoking the spread of magic was merely the "final straw", which resulted in Abaddon worsening a war between the Margonite humans and Forgotten and besieging the Gates of Heaven and wanting to kill the other gods to become "the one true god", and while we don't know what led to the the revoking of magic being a "final straw" moment, it certainly wasn't Abaddon's imprisonment in the heart of the Realm of Torment.

    Abaddon became a monster then was imprisoned by the five gods and chained by Balthazar's forged chains. Balthazar didn't make Abaddon a monster; Abaddon made Abaddon a monster.

    Also, "having the Margonites wipe out the Priests of the 5 Gods who left him in torment." this happened before Abaddon was imprisoned, if Mickey's referrring to when the Margonites desicrated the Temple of the Six by murdering the other fives' priesthood.

    I was referring to the Priests in the Mirror of Lyssa who were massacred by Varesh...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Also, "having the Margonites wipe out the Priests of the 5 Gods who left him in torment." this happened before Abaddon was imprisoned, if Mickey's referrring to when the Margonites desicrated the Temple of the Six by murdering the other fives' priesthood.

    I was referring to the Priests in the Mirror of Lyssa who were massacred by Varesh...

    Well, that's slightly off then. Those were only priests of Lyssa. The Grand Court of Sebelkeh was a temple dedicated to Lyssa alone. And I don't think that Abaddon was really targeting the priesthood anyways; the three rituals of Varesh and Abaddon's other attacks all focused on holy places and locations close to the Mists.

    And even if he was targeting a priesthood specifically, if you were correct he'd target the Zaishen and priesthood of Balthazar, not Lyssa's priests.

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  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    It would have made more sense if the villain is Menzies.

  • brenda.9723brenda.9723 Member ✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    It would have made more sense if the villain is Menzies.

    I would at least feels better. As a GW1 player who was following Balthazar, GW2 balthazar feels nothing like the GW1 Balthazar. GW1 Balthazar was an honourable warrior fatherfigure, who inspired people to show courage, bravery and honour. GW2 balthazar is an evil idiot. I get that GW1 Balthazar was not the nicest guy out there, but GW2 gets his character completely wrong.

    I think that no one of the writers team actually played GW1. They get most of the GW1 inspired story so wrong. They dont understand what people liked about Lazarus, Abaddon, Joko and Balthazar.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    You're just going to have to hold out hope for ArenaNet to actually expand on the Zafirah story and how Balthazar that appeared in PoF was "different" from the Balthazar that Zafirah and the rest of his worshippers felt when calling upon his divine power.

  • Zafirah Pristess of Balthazar thief class specialisation Deadeye... this contradiction alone disqualified her in my eyes. I agree as she said that Balthazar will be remembered for what he did in the end and not what he stood for in the past. What was that exactly what he stood for? Wasnt it Honor in Battle? Isnt Honor in Battle one of the first things Blathazar taught humans. Isnt Honor in Battle one of the reasons why the Eternal Army was full of heroic looking ghostly knights? and a thief deadeye reminds us of Honor in Battle. yeah sure... I take this seriously enough to think that we will continue the Path of Nonsense.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    You're just going to have to hold out hope for ArenaNet to actually expand on the Zafirah story and how Balthazar that appeared in PoF was "different" from the Balthazar that Zafirah and the rest of his worshippers felt when calling upon his divine power.

    They already did in Zafirah's requiem, really. So I doubt they'll go further.

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:
    Zafirah Pristess of Balthazar thief class specialisation Deadeye... this contradiction alone disqualified her in my eyes. [...] and a thief deadeye reminds us of Honor in Battle. yeah sure... I take this seriously enough to think that we will continue the Path of Nonsense.

    You're taking the thief profession's name too literally it seems. The profession isn't a criminal profession; it's easily possible to be honorable, and there will be scouts in armies that use that profession too. After all, there were Eternals of all sorts of professions, even necromancers and mesmers - the later of which is defined by trickery. "Honor in battle" isn't defined by the tools you have, but how you use them.

    You should also learn Zafirah's backstory which explains why she's a deadeye, and how she joined the Zaishen order.

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  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    You're just going to have to hold out hope for ArenaNet to actually expand on the Zafirah story and how Balthazar that appeared in PoF was "different" from the Balthazar that Zafirah and the rest of his worshippers felt when calling upon his divine power.

    They already did in Zafirah's requiem, really. So I doubt they'll go further.

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:
    Zafirah Pristess of Balthazar thief class specialisation Deadeye... this contradiction alone disqualified her in my eyes. [...] and a thief deadeye reminds us of Honor in Battle. yeah sure... I take this seriously enough to think that we will continue the Path of Nonsense.

    You're taking the thief profession's name too literally it seems. The profession isn't a criminal profession; it's easily possible to be honorable, and there will be scouts in armies that use that profession too. After all, there were Eternals of all sorts of professions, even necromancers and mesmers - the later of which is defined by trickery. "Honor in battle" isn't defined by the tools you have, but how you use them.

    You should also learn Zafirah's backstory which explains why she's a deadeye, and how she joined the Zaishen order.

    While I myself understand Thief doesn't have to be particularly honorless, I think that the choice of profession here is very unfitting.

    Honestly, sometimes it's just better to stick with the stereotypes that people expect and like simply because that way makes the character more appealing.

    So, if Zafirah being basically a Warrior would make her less appealing? I don't think so. As this would build a very clear connection between her, Balthazar and Glory motives. And this is obviously to be expected - but it doesn't mean it's bad.

    Right now we have a character that brings questions and isn't taken seriously by some (including me).
    That's just my point of view. It doesn't have to be just the profession that makes character, but I would certainly feel more sympathetic towards a character that being a Warrior follows a god-warrior. It could be much easier to truly understand her if her character hasn't been shown in the Star Wars TLJ manner (everything has to have a twist). I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

    Stereotype can be a very strong tool.

  • In all honesty, I disagree with just about everything you said. I don't think her being a warrior would have added anything - Balthazar isn't a god of warriors either, he's just a god of war and warriors are nothing more than martial fighters, despite their name being "war"rior. Besides this, she's 100% just a sniper; and snipers are common place in wars, so to me it makes perfect sense. I think the issue a lot of this hypothetical large group who dislikes Zafirah's profession (so far, I've literally only seen two folks complain about it, and both being just here and now) is that they're associating Zafirah as a thief first, and a sniper never.

    And I don't think her introduction was a twist at all, let alone done as horribly as anything in The Last Jedi was.

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  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    In all honesty, I disagree with just about everything you said. I don't think her being a warrior would have added anything - Balthazar isn't a god of warriors either, he's just a god of war and warriors are nothing more than martial fighters, despite their name being "war"rior. Besides this, she's 100% just a sniper; and snipers are common place in wars, so to me it makes perfect sense. I think the issue a lot of this hypothetical large group who dislikes Zafirah's profession (so far, I've literally only seen two folks complain about it, and both being just here and now) is that they're associating Zafirah as a thief first, and a sniper never.

    And I don't think her introduction was a twist at all, let alone done as horribly as anything in The Last Jedi was.

    See, this isn't about wording. The warrior (in fantasy World which GW2 is) is almost always associated with martial fighters. I know that Balthazar isn't the warrior.
    Sniper is a very common thing in war, but I don't think it's the first thing that comes to my mind. Maybe that's just difference in opinion.,

    I don't mean the intrudoction od Zafirah is a twist. Just that she is a character with a twist. And that's not always necessary, hence my comparison to The Last Jedi. The twist (I know, sniper and war) is that Zafirah isn't a stereotypical warrior which I would expect her to be.
    Sometimes, more straightforward can be better. Some of GW2 characters' tend to be a bit too complicated and I can't like them because of it.

    I understand her feelings, I think her backstory is great, her in-game dialogues are well-written but she doesn't appeal to me as a fantasy sniper following the God of War who's wielding a greatsword. It just doesn't work for me no matter her how well her character is written. It's almost as if Engineers turned out to be followers of a certain entity.

  • @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    The twist (I know, sniper and war) is that Zafirah isn't a stereotypical warrior which I would expect her to be.

    That's ... not what a twist is.

    A twist (or rather, "plot twist") is when the story presents you with misleading information for the sake of a dramatic reversal reveal. Or to use wikipedia's definition: a radical change in the direction or expected outcome.

    There was no change in Zafirah. She was introduced as a sniper and priestess of Balthazar. She remains as such up to and including the end of War Eternal. There is no twist.

    It's almost as if Engineers turned out to be followers of a certain entity.

    Why wouldn't human engineers follow a certain god or goddess? Humans in general are a highly devout race, so it makes perfect sense even engineers among the race would worship the Six, or one in particular. It's pretty well established in GW1 lore that Lyssa is a patron goddess of ingenuity, and with Kormir as goddess of knowledge, both work perfectly well for being patron goddesses of engineers. The same for norn - it would be unsurprising for norn engineers to revere Raven, who has an emphasis on knowledge like Kormir.

    There's no reason, other than being narrow minded with the stereotype of "science conflicts with religion" (which in of itself is baseless BS that's overused in stories).

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • So when is my boy Abbadon coming back to subvert tropes and save the day?

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On the base of the Zafirah's requiem, affinity with Balthazar was about certain values, i find it very creative, rather than a tipical "angry lone warrior thats is devoutes to a equally warrior like god"(aka Conan the Barbarian).

    The only problem i see with Zafirah's arc, is all that introduction and even a commander vision, suggesting that she would play a pivotal role, to end up becoming just very side character something like a "agent kito" on matter of screening time or number of dialogues. on the next episodes after her introduction shes was just a mere bystander with few dialogues. In the Ep5 "The Crystal Dragon" her participation is just this

    Zafirah: We're not late, are we?
    : Zafirah! Right on time.
    Zafirah: Zaishen, to arms! Prophecies don't fulfill themselves!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Crystal_Dragon

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    The twist (I know, sniper and war) is that Zafirah isn't a stereotypical warrior which I would expect her to be.

    That's ... not what a twist is.

    A twist (or rather, "plot twist") is when the story presents you with misleading information for the sake of a dramatic reversal reveal. Or to use wikipedia's definition: a radical change in the direction or expected outcome.

    There was no change in Zafirah. She was introduced as a sniper and priestess of Balthazar. She remains as such up to and including the end of War Eternal. There is no twist.

    It's almost as if Engineers turned out to be followers of a certain entity.

    Why wouldn't human engineers follow a certain god or goddess? Humans in general are a highly devout race, so it makes perfect sense even engineers among the race would worship the Six, or one in particular. It's pretty well established in GW1 lore that Lyssa is a patron goddess of ingenuity, and with Kormir as goddess of knowledge, both work perfectly well for being patron goddesses of engineers. The same for norn - it would be unsurprising for norn engineers to revere Raven, who has an emphasis on knowledge like Kormir.

    There's no reason, other than being narrow minded with the stereotype of "science conflicts with religion" (which in of itself is baseless BS that's overused in stories).

    I respect your knowledge about the GW World, really. I like reading your posts correcting mistakes or just adding the information that I find often interesting.

    The problem is that I'm giving you my own opinion while you are providing me with word descriptions and factual knowledge about meaning and possibilty of things that happen in GW2.
    This feels like you don't treat what I say with a lot of respect and try to (instead of talk) give me a lecture.
    All I said is what makes character of Zafirah bland and not do appealing to me. I can tell you understand my point by somehow try to scientificly tell me that I'm wrong.

    So, if we are to be as correct as you, I haven't said Zafirah's gone through some "plot twist" - you added that. No "plot-twists", I am being very clear. All I mean is that for me, Zafirah's character wasn't made stereotypical, which in this case could actually work on her favor (for me). The twist (just the word, itself, no additions) is about her being not literally and exaclty what I would expect her to be as a warrior (not actual Warrior class, just so you know), priest, follower of god of war.
    What happens is that I can't feel that sympathetic towards her even with all the background. Sniper doesn't work for me.

    The Engineers and gods. The engineer technology looks like it comes from the charr Iron Legion which do not have gods. You gave the easiest of the examples being human, but the fact that we happen to have Human Engineers is more of ANet's choice to design GW2, rather than a lore choice. See, you are describing it by what you think works for the EnginnerXHuman class. It doesn't work for me. Again, trying to put that into factual knowledge. Lyssa and Kormir work well for being patrones for Engineers work for you.
    And again - it is surprising for me that Norn can be Engineers, sylvari too. I don't think that Gw2 giving all classes to all races having one aesthetics is good. Just the aesthetics is unfitting for me. If they altered it per race (which I know won't happen) I would like it a lot more. I don't enjoy looking at plants with literal guns (probably using Charr technology) that also happen to worship a magical tree's spirit.
    Opinion.

    You don't have to prove people wrong for having a different opinion. And no, I don't think that I am using any incorrecr words to describe my PoV.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    Languages exist for the sake of proper communication. If you decide to make your own meanings, then no one's going to understand what you are trying to say. Nothing to do with disrespect or being "scientific".

    Zafirah being a deadeye and a priest of Balthazar is no twist. By any definition of the word. In your view, using your words, it's merely the opposite of a stereotype. Again, that's not a twist.

    Nothing prevents a scientist, let alone a more mundane technician that is an engineer, from being religious. Engineer technology does not come from charr - they merely made a combat-ready engineer. And just because the inventor of a practice is antitheist, doesn't mean all practitioners would be too. So I'll just disagree there.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Languages exist for the sake of proper communication. If you decide to make your own meanings, then no one's going to understand what you are trying to say. Nothing to do with disrespect or being "scientific".

    Zafirah being a deadeye and a priest of Balthazar is no twist. By any definition of the word. In your view, using your words, it's merely the opposite of a stereotype. Again, that's not a twist.

    Nothing prevents a scientist, let alone a more mundane technician that is an engineer, from being religious. Engineer technology does not come from charr - they merely made a combat-ready engineer. And just because the inventor of a practice is antitheist, doesn't mean all practitioners would be too. So I'll just disagree there.

    I am fully awarie of the language and how I use it.

    Once again you are trying to prove me wrong for what I think providing me with factual knowledge. That's no use.

    Your reasons don't appeal to me, do we just don't agree. I don't try to say you're wrong for what you think. I know technician can be religious - I don't find it appealing in a fantasy game setting I am supposed to enjoy. Just na opinion. In this particular aspect - I don't like it

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:
    Zafirah Pristess of Balthazar thief class specialisation Deadeye... this contradiction alone disqualified her in my eyes. [...] and a thief deadeye reminds us of Honor in Battle. yeah sure... I take this seriously enough to think that we will continue the Path of Nonsense.

    You're taking the thief profession's name too literally it seems. The profession isn't a criminal profession; it's easily possible to be honorable, and there will be scouts in armies that use that profession too. After all, there were Eternals of all sorts of professions, even necromancers and mesmers - the later of which is defined by trickery. "Honor in battle" isn't defined by the tools you have, but how you use them.

    You should also learn Zafirah's backstory which explains why she's a deadeye, and how she joined the Zaishen order.

    Where have I stated that Thief/Deadeye is a criminal profession? I fail to see where you get that from or why it is in anyway important.
    Yes, there can be exceptions and Thiefs/Deadeyes can be honorable.
    Yes, Thiefs/Deadeyes can be used as scouts.
    Yes. in the Eternal Army were all sorts of classes.
    Nowhere I deny any of that.
    Where do I define that "Honor in Battle" is defined by its tools? Where did you get that from? I have not stated anything how I define "Honor in Battle".
    But if you want to know... I think "Honor in Battle" is defined by the actions you take in battle.

    Yes, I have read her backstory and I know how she became a Deadeye and how she joined the Zaishen order. Yes, saving innocent peoples is honorable but that does not mean that her actions in battle are. And was she in battle? It looked more like a small combat to me. A small scale fight. Whatever we call her fights, I think sniping the enemy is not Honor in Battle. Yes, Saving innocent is honorable. But these are two different things. In GW1 the main Focus was Honor in Battle. Now it seems to me they shift the main focus to protect the weak.

    Anyway for me Zafirah is just an extension or continuation of the inconsistent storytelling of the Balthaddon Arc in PoF (Path of Nonsense). When you consider the inconsistency of PoF I was still foolish enough to expect that the storytellers come up with a more consistent to the old Balthazar Theme "Honor in Battle" character as ally. A more fitting character that explains the backround of the Balthaddon Arc.... In my oppinion Zafirah is a bad representation of old Balthazar. But maybe she shall not represent old Balthazar and shall be the transition to the new power and the new god of war... I dont know... I agree Zafirah has an interesting story but it does not fit old Balthazar which she is a pristess of as a Deadeye. And that screams inconsistency to me and after PoF experiencing Zafirah i just can shout out why?!? Please give me Rastigan as ally and let him talk to my by PoF tortured Fissure of Woe memories. Let Rastigan tell me that PoF was just a bad dream and everything will be fine.

    Anyway. If you want you can call me "classisist". ;) and I admit I am biased. PoF pushed me to WvW and here I got shot alot in the back by nearly permanent invisible Deadeyes. Probably one of the reasons why I think sniping is not Honor in Battle. I hope I have clarified a little bit my opinion.

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not entirely convinced we fully know what was going on with Balth tbh. I didn't play GW1 but even to me the way he acted seemed strange. But from him using Lyssa's mirror, to him specifically not cursing Lyssa in the Draconis Mons final instance (iirc), and just...the way Kormir words a certain sentence in PoF (was something along the lines of " eventually Lyssa also agreed")...it makes me put on my tin foil hat and think that there is some sort of conspiracy going on. Idk what, but I'm convinced there's something.
    I could just be off my rocker though. Or missing something.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    I'm not entirely convinced we fully know what was going on with Balth tbh. I didn't play GW1 but even to me the way he acted seemed strange. But from him using Lyssa's mirror, to him specifically not cursing Lyssa in the Draconis Mons final instance (iirc), and just...the way Kormir words a certain sentence in PoF (was something along the lines of " eventually Lyssa also agreed")...it makes me put on my tin foil hat and think that there is some sort of conspiracy going on. Idk what, but I'm convinced there's something.
    I could just be off my rocker though. Or missing something.

    I too think there is something left for Anet to delve into in regards to the Human Gods and I believe it’s a plot point they intend to touch if I recall. Hopefully future episodes will draw more out on this mystery.

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