Would scrapper be too OP for raiding if they could give either alicrity or quickness to allies? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Would scrapper be too OP for raiding if they could give either alicrity or quickness to allies?

Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

The scrapper has the ability to revive allies from a distance, having this ability would make you think they would be popular in training runs
But no the Necro/scourge who has the ability to teleport downed allies to himself and mass revive them gets picked instead.
(scourge is slowly becoming popular bit by bit I know, I dont mind that, I just mind the shadow the scrapper is in at the moment )

Outside of niece builds and certain raids like sloth for the heavy condi heal, the scrapper never sees the living daylight in the raiding community
Reason why I come with the question what would have if the scrapper was given the power to supply quickness/alicrity to his allies (either 5 or 10 man)

Would it make the class too op? The answer is yes.
It would make the class op in PVP/WvW yes but those modes could simply not receive those scrapper alicrity or quickness buffs
Its my believe training runs would have more success if the scrapper was made a popular choice for raiding
Having a scourge/scrapper and maybe even a tempest if they made that class popular for raiding too would give people more time to learn certain mechanics before their eventually demise because they aren't doing enough damage to the bosses yet.

To any people who say people should be masochists and be prepared to die over and over again to a raid boss without improving much can feel the wrath of my Balthazar hounds who I've temporary loaned from their master!!! (mehehehehe, this can be ignored if you desire)

Now I'm curios to know why the Scrapper shouldn't be changed for raiding because they're fine as they are and no changes are needed at all.
Or what can be done instead to make the scrapper more viable to the raiding community

Comments

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:
    The scrapper has the ability to revive allies from a distance, having this ability would make you think they would be popular in training runs
    But no the Necro/scourge who has the ability to teleport downed allies to himself and mass revive them gets picked instead.
    (scourge is slowly becoming popular bit by bit I know, I dont mind that, I just mind the shadow the scrapper is in at the moment )

    Outside of niece builds and certain raids like sloth for the heavy condi heal, the scrapper never sees the living daylight in the raiding community
    Reason why I come with the question what would have if the scrapper was given the power to supply quickness/alicrity to his allies (either 5 or 10 man)

    Would it make the class too op? The answer is yes.
    It would make the class op in PVP/WvW yes but those modes could simply not receive those scrapper alicrity or quickness buffs
    Its my believe training runs would have more success if the scrapper was made a popular choice for raiding
    Having a scourge/scrapper and maybe even a tempest if they made that class popular for raiding too would give people more time to learn certain mechanics before their eventually demise because they aren't doing enough damage to the bosses yet.

    To any people who say people should be masochists and be prepared to die over and over again to a raid boss without improving much can feel the wrath of my Balthazar hounds who I've temporary loaned from their master!!! (mehehehehe, this can be ignored if you desire)

    Now I'm curios to know why the Scrapper shouldn't be changed for raiding because they're fine as they are and no changes are needed at all.
    Or what can be done instead to make the scrapper more viable to the raiding community

    Not every spezialistation has to be good in PvE. Some are just build more suited for PvP and that's fine.

    People don't improve when you can heal them through anything. They just learn that their healers just iron out every mistake they make.

    Like I said these changes would not impact pvp/WvW because scrapper is strong in those modes, only in pve would these changes be affected. Also every specialization is seen decently in a raid except the herald and scrapper.

    We also have training runs with 2 healers instead of one, so it seems that people do expect healers to iron out every mistake they make.....

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:
    The scrapper has the ability to revive allies from a distance, having this ability would make you think they would be popular in training runs
    But no the Necro/scourge who has the ability to teleport downed allies to himself and mass revive them gets picked instead.
    (scourge is slowly becoming popular bit by bit I know, I dont mind that, I just mind the shadow the scrapper is in at the moment )

    Outside of niece builds and certain raids like sloth for the heavy condi heal, the scrapper never sees the living daylight in the raiding community
    Reason why I come with the question what would have if the scrapper was given the power to supply quickness/alicrity to his allies (either 5 or 10 man)

    Would it make the class too op? The answer is yes.
    It would make the class op in PVP/WvW yes but those modes could simply not receive those scrapper alicrity or quickness buffs
    Its my believe training runs would have more success if the scrapper was made a popular choice for raiding
    Having a scourge/scrapper and maybe even a tempest if they made that class popular for raiding too would give people more time to learn certain mechanics before their eventually demise because they aren't doing enough damage to the bosses yet.

    To any people who say people should be masochists and be prepared to die over and over again to a raid boss without improving much can feel the wrath of my Balthazar hounds who I've temporary loaned from their master!!! (mehehehehe, this can be ignored if you desire)

    Now I'm curios to know why the Scrapper shouldn't be changed for raiding because they're fine as they are and no changes are needed at all.
    Or what can be done instead to make the scrapper more viable to the raiding community

    Not every spezialistation has to be good in PvE. Some are just build more suited for PvP and that's fine.

    People don't improve when you can heal them through anything. They just learn that their healers just iron out every mistake they make.

    Like I said these changes would not impact pvp/WvW because scrapper is strong in those modes, only in pve would these changes be affected. Also every specialization is seen decently in a raid except the herald and scrapper.

    We also have training runs with 2 healers instead of one, so it seems that people do expect healers to iron out every mistake they make.....

    Anet skill splitting only ever involves number changes. If they add more boons in PvE, they will also add those boons in PvP and WvW.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:
    The scrapper has the ability to revive allies from a distance, having this ability would make you think they would be popular in training runs
    But no the Necro/scourge who has the ability to teleport downed allies to himself and mass revive them gets picked instead.
    (scourge is slowly becoming popular bit by bit I know, I dont mind that, I just mind the shadow the scrapper is in at the moment )

    Outside of niece builds and certain raids like sloth for the heavy condi heal, the scrapper never sees the living daylight in the raiding community
    Reason why I come with the question what would have if the scrapper was given the power to supply quickness/alicrity to his allies (either 5 or 10 man)

    Would it make the class too op? The answer is yes.
    It would make the class op in PVP/WvW yes but those modes could simply not receive those scrapper alicrity or quickness buffs
    Its my believe training runs would have more success if the scrapper was made a popular choice for raiding
    Having a scourge/scrapper and maybe even a tempest if they made that class popular for raiding too would give people more time to learn certain mechanics before their eventually demise because they aren't doing enough damage to the bosses yet.

    To any people who say people should be masochists and be prepared to die over and over again to a raid boss without improving much can feel the wrath of my Balthazar hounds who I've temporary loaned from their master!!! (mehehehehe, this can be ignored if you desire)

    Now I'm curios to know why the Scrapper shouldn't be changed for raiding because they're fine as they are and no changes are needed at all.
    Or what can be done instead to make the scrapper more viable to the raiding community

    Not every spezialistation has to be good in PvE. Some are just build more suited for PvP and that's fine.

    People don't improve when you can heal them through anything. They just learn that their healers just iron out every mistake they make.

    Like I said these changes would not impact pvp/WvW because scrapper is strong in those modes, only in pve would these changes be affected. Also every specialization is seen decently in a raid except the herald and scrapper.

    This is something that will likely never happen. I can't recall any mechanical difference between PvE/PvP for skills. Only numbers. Every change that includes new boons for classes has to be considered for all modes.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    For the sake of discussing Scrapper in PvE (not considering the other modes in this), any build that is in an already "decent" spot should not receive 10-man quickness or alacrity. Experimental Turrests combined with those 10-man must have boons would turn them into Druids 2.0 - stronger than the Druids have been even before all of the nerfs. Don't see that happening.
    However, 5-man quickness seems more likely and ultimately more interesting. But then it really depends how quickness is added. How convenient it would be, if there is the possiblity to run them as an offensive support, etc for them to ever rival the Firebrands.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    They do already provide Quickness and Alacrity to allies, its in the boon conversion table. It just depends on the encounter. If you mean "on demand", they made it clear a long time ago that the Engineer was intended to be the RNG-based class.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    Engi used to be able to provide 60% quickness uptime for 5 but it was changed to provide some minor superspeed instead.
    Kitty's also been asking for Experimental Turrets to be changed to 10 targets instead of 5 to be on par with Herald's facets and druid's spirits ever since spirits were made 10-target (though they've lately nerfed the spirits but they're still way superior to turrets). But they still haven't done anything about it. And it still wouldn't make scrapper super-OP as PVP has 5 proper targets anyway, turrets wouldn't survive in WvW and in PVE heal-engi/scrapper needs to choose between keeping up certain boons with turrets or providing barrier. Or some other useful utility. (And as of now Rifle Turret is pretty much mandatory as it's the only native way to provide fury for sub.)
    It's not like engi's ressbot capability is excessive either. Yush, Toss Elixir R heals 12x17% on downed ppls and is technically capable of ressing the squad if they're not taking damage after getting downed, but it requires the squad to get downed in one spot. Elixir R also has double the cooldown of necro's and druid's similar skills (with HGH and compared against untraited Well of Blood and Nature Spirit) and while scrapper can ress from range, it can't pull the downed peoples out from poison which sometimes makes even trying to ress completely pointless (while druid and blood magic necro can happily pull peoples out of danger zone and ress them fully with a press of single button on relatively short cd).
    Another big issue atm is engi's might generation. Out of all possible healing classes (thief and warr don't count as they don't heal enough to be considered a main healer), only heal-chrono puts out less might (but it grants some quickness+alacrity to make it a special case). Even with try-hard clean mightbotting out of combat with optimized mightbot heal build, it can only sustain 16-19 stacks of might for 5 and way less in actual combat and even that requires some fire field blasting. And that's with core engi, scrapper does a few stacks less. (Kitty had hoped that Blast Gyro revamp would've helped but it's still inferior to traited Flame turret and thus core engi remains better for boonbotting due to shorter toolbelt cooldowns. Scrapper-spec doesn't help at all at booning others atm.)

    And for those reasons, heal-engi/scrapper is currently mainly viable as 2nd healer in 10-player-groups and it also somehow works in 5-player-parties if you're really good at it and optimized for mightbotting as core engi.

    Ofc one more reason why there's almost no heal-scrappers and zero heal-engies (other than Kitty) in raids atm is that every single heal-scrapper she's seen have been built purely to heal with almost non-existent boon output.
    And like Kitty's been ranting for 2 years soon, a heal build's 2nd main purpose is providing full boon uptimes, especially fury and might. As long as people build their healers only to heal and ignore boons, they'll never be accepted as a common alternative to metahealers in pug comps. No matter how well it heals (and heal-scrapper has the strongest heal output of any classes atm).

    Ofc we have one build that had done that: heal-scourge. And that's due to its insane barrier output mitigating the usually lethal mechanics into minor nuisances and even if people fail super-hard, heal-scourge can just keep on pulling them around and ressing them every time they go down until the boss dies unless they die in super-awkward spot.
    But since they output no fury ('cause Kitty seems to be the only heal-scourge who uses pack runes and harrier/magi gears as everyone else says "But scourge doesn't boon at all" 'cause none builds it to boon properly) and they're usually grouped with a chrono (which can't keep up 100% uptime by itself), that usually results in 60ish% fury uptimes for heal-scourge's sub at best. And if you've ever played a power dps, you know how badly that shucks.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    • double chrono double druid. At least mostly on NA (and very often on EU, too) though sometimes also that boonless healscourge as 2nd healer.
      It's not like even double-druid in pugs ensures good might/fury uptimes if both druids spam staff 1 and enter CA maybe once in every 90 seconds to spam 43111111111. Kitty's legit seen that happen more than a few times lately. (Even if it's possible to keep up proper boon uptimes solo if traited to do so with just staff 1, spirits, F4 and CA4324.)

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:
    The scrapper has the ability to revive allies from a distance, having this ability would make you think they would be popular in training runs
    But no the Necro/scourge who has the ability to teleport downed allies to himself and mass revive them gets picked instead.
    (scourge is slowly becoming popular bit by bit I know, I dont mind that, I just mind the shadow the scrapper is in at the moment )

    Outside of niece builds and certain raids like sloth for the heavy condi heal, the scrapper never sees the living daylight in the raiding community
    Reason why I come with the question what would have if the scrapper was given the power to supply quickness/alicrity to his allies (either 5 or 10 man)

    Would it make the class too op? The answer is yes.
    It would make the class op in PVP/WvW yes but those modes could simply not receive those scrapper alicrity or quickness buffs
    Its my believe training runs would have more success if the scrapper was made a popular choice for raiding
    Having a scourge/scrapper and maybe even a tempest if they made that class popular for raiding too would give people more time to learn certain mechanics before their eventually demise because they aren't doing enough damage to the bosses yet.

    To any people who say people should be masochists and be prepared to die over and over again to a raid boss without improving much can feel the wrath of my Balthazar hounds who I've temporary loaned from their master!!! (mehehehehe, this can be ignored if you desire)

    Now I'm curios to know why the Scrapper shouldn't be changed for raiding because they're fine as they are and no changes are needed at all.
    Or what can be done instead to make the scrapper more viable to the raiding community

    Not every spezialistation has to be good in PvE. Some are just build more suited for PvP and that's fine.

    People don't improve when you can heal them through anything. They just learn that their healers just iron out every mistake they make.

    Like I said these changes would not impact pvp/WvW because scrapper is strong in those modes, only in pve would these changes be affected. Also every specialization is seen decently in a raid except the herald and scrapper.

    We also have training runs with 2 healers instead of one, so it seems that people do expect healers to iron out every mistake they make.....

    We've already seen Anet's unwillingness to separate class balance between the 2 game modes. No chance any class (let alone scrapper) will get access to alacrity and quickness in PvE while not in WvW. Also, the worst possible thing they could ever do (which they seemingly already actively do), is balance the game around raiding.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Metasynaptic.1093Metasynaptic.1093 Member ✭✭✭

    Just make one of the alternative traits to the ones that PvP or wvw players find indespensible grant alac/quick.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Rico.6873 said:
    The scrapper has the ability to revive allies from a distance, having this ability would make you think they would be popular in training runs
    But no the Necro/scourge who has the ability to teleport downed allies to himself and mass revive them gets picked instead.
    (scourge is slowly becoming popular bit by bit I know, I dont mind that, I just mind the shadow the scrapper is in at the moment )

    Outside of niece builds and certain raids like sloth for the heavy condi heal, the scrapper never sees the living daylight in the raiding community
    Reason why I come with the question what would have if the scrapper was given the power to supply quickness/alicrity to his allies (either 5 or 10 man)

    Would it make the class too op? The answer is yes.
    It would make the class op in PVP/WvW yes but those modes could simply not receive those scrapper alicrity or quickness buffs
    Its my believe training runs would have more success if the scrapper was made a popular choice for raiding
    Having a scourge/scrapper and maybe even a tempest if they made that class popular for raiding too would give people more time to learn certain mechanics before their eventually demise because they aren't doing enough damage to the bosses yet.

    To any people who say people should be masochists and be prepared to die over and over again to a raid boss without improving much can feel the wrath of my Balthazar hounds who I've temporary loaned from their master!!! (mehehehehe, this can be ignored if you desire)

    Now I'm curios to know why the Scrapper shouldn't be changed for raiding because they're fine as they are and no changes are needed at all.
    Or what can be done instead to make the scrapper more viable to the raiding community

    Not every spezialistation has to be good in PvE. Some are just build more suited for PvP and that's fine.

    People don't improve when you can heal them through anything. They just learn that their healers just iron out every mistake they make.

    Like I said these changes would not impact pvp/WvW because scrapper is strong in those modes, only in pve would these changes be affected. Also every specialization is seen decently in a raid except the herald and scrapper.

    We also have training runs with 2 healers instead of one, so it seems that people do expect healers to iron out every mistake they make.....

    We've already seen Anet's unwillingness to separate class balance between the 2 game modes. No chance any class (let alone scrapper) will get access to alacrity and quickness in PvE while not in WvW. Also, the worst possible thing they could ever do (which they seemingly already actively do), is balance the game around raiding.

    Correct. Raids are doable with lots of builds. In PvP and WvW you get destroyed by players of similar skill level if your spec is bad. Ele balance has been pretty egregious with raid nerfs affecting PvP and WvW, on a profession that was already a huge underperformer. Golem balancing only takes into account optimal DPS and should never be considered. Also, builds with more utility, survivability, easier to land attacks etc should have no business doing the same DPS. Either there should be a noticeable DPS difference or there should be more tools given to specs that only have DPS going for them. Either way is fine.

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

    Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

    Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

    The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

    • one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
    • when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

    Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

    So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

  • icy.9250icy.9250 Member ✭✭

    Scrapper already can resurrect 1 downed player, even if 2 enemies are cleaving it as hard as they can. This alone makes it stupidly broken in havoc vs havoc, and imo it should have no place in WvW.

    I've seen it memed in the Twilight Oasis fractal for heavy condi clear when stabilities used to be especially bad.

    I totally wouldnt mind if Scrapper was nerfed into the ground.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

    Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

    Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

    The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

    • one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
    • when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

    Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

    So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

    Renegade gives 10 man alicrity and a fire field and dps increase with Kala which also heals you if you attack, Guardian gives a lot of Aegis and a steady heal and a 15% vigor boost to all

  • I have a great idea. Make scrapper give out every boon to 10 people and just abolish all other classes.

    This is essentially what OP is talking about.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

    Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

    Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

    The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

    • one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
    • when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

    Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

    So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

    Renegade gives 10 man alicrity and a fire field and dps increase with Kala which also heals you if you attack, Guardian gives a lot of Aegis and a steady heal and a 15% vigor boost to all

    So we are now talking about making all boons 10 man? Sure, that would work. Then chrono+druid would be 2 supports which compete with Renegade and Firebrand.

    Last I checked, Renegade does not give 10 people might, neither does Firebrand. The same goes for fury.

    So is the argument made now all support boons should be balanced for 10 man? That could be discussed. Yet, that still does not address the vast power creep which would happen.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

    Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

    Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

    why?

    again, abolish all classes but scrapper? How about not-every-class-is-awesome-at-everything?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

    Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

    You do realize that most classes have elite specs for different game modes and roles.

    Why should engineers need multiple PvE power dps builds? Holosmith is great at PvE power damage. Why would you intentionally stiffle the design possibilties of Scrapper by forcing more damage onto the specialization and make balance potentially even worse/hard?

    DD/DE are nearly identical in how they play: autoattack to win and press a utility skill every 20-30 seconds. The main reason being thiefs initiative design. You want Arenanet to copy this simplicity to engineer?

    Tempest and Weaver again share a vast majority of the elementalists core abilities and utilities.

    Let's look at which classes do not have multiple builds fullfilling the same role on different elite specializations:

    • mesmer
    • necromancer
    • engineer
    • guardian
    • revenant
    • ranger

    The last outlier is warrior who once again achieves his power damage via his core weapons mostly with variations what his elite specializations provide. Now why do you believe engineer deserves a different treatment than 2/3s of all classes?

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

    Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

    why?

    again, abolish all classes but scrapper? How about not-every-class-is-awesome-at-everything?

    Where did I say that I wanted to abolish all classes?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

    Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

    You do realize that most classes have elite specs for different game modes and roles.

    Why should engineers need multiple PvE power dps builds? Holosmith is great at PvE power damage. Why would you intentionally stiffle the design possibilties of Scrapper by forcing more damage onto the specialization and make balance potentially even worse/hard?

    DD/DE are nearly identical in how they play: autoattack to win and press a utility skill every 20-30 seconds. The main reason being thiefs initiative design. You want Arenanet to copy this simplicity to engineer?

    Tempest and Weaver again share a vast majority of the elementalists core abilities and utilities.

    Let's look at which classes do not have multiple builds fullfilling the same role on different elite specializations:

    • mesmer
    • necromancer
    • engineer
    • guardian
    • revenant
    • ranger

    The last outlier is warrior who once again achieves his power damage via his core weapons mostly with variations what his elite specializations provide. Now why do you believe engineer deserves a different treatment than 2/3s of all classes?

    Hmm, I never said to get rid of the supportive capabilities of scrapper.

    If all professions according to the instinctive need to pigeonhole are not allowed to have two similar roles or designed to have one specific role (i.e. dps, although raids created the differentiation of power/condi) then I would have to say the possibilities and popularity of future especs looks pretty bleak. Some professions are technically ‘done’ - guardian, it has its power & condi dps and also support options. What’s its next espec gonna be? Tanky pvp oriented, useless in pve wall that does does nothing but tank? Theorhetically:

    • Guard is done
    • Rev is done (although its power option is really weak because it’s support /sigh. Even then, herald support is still very weak)
    • Ranger is done (druid is kinda sad however with its support only option)
    • Thief is done (could use a more effective support build, but how many would play thief to heal/support like a druid/fb? DD could use condi buffs or alternatively, a specifically condi oriented espec could be made)
    • Necro is done
    • Ele is done
    • Mes is done

    We (or least I) can look at this in multiple ways to try and argue w/e point we’re trying to make. Why is it that every espec can do some sort of dps except druid/scrapper? Are those two the problem, or has everything else been done completely wrong? Should we get rid of/rework ‘two role’ especs? Because without doing so, we’re going to run into the same problem (no two especs should do the same thing) anyway:

    • Beserker - power/condi
    • FB - support/condi
    • Herald - power/support
    • Renegade - condi/support
    • SlB - power/condi
    • DD - power/condi
    • Chrono - support/power
    • Temp - power/support
    • Scourge - condi/support

    Throwing a very unproven assumption here, but I suspect more players play dmg roles than support, and if especs are locked out of such option, it has less of a population - especially in high-end pve when it’s support capabilities are or become overshadowed by the meta (druid is dying, albeit very slowly).

    I don’t even own an engi anymore (I deleted it because I dislike alts), I’m not looking to make scrapper ‘special’ - this more of a consistency review, or another fool claiming to have great ideas for the unrealistic dream of build diversity. You can take or leave my opinion, as this thread is more oriented on making engi support more prominent, but it still stands if you find the need to refer back to it.

    tl;dr: good luck trying to make scrapper be able to compete with the meta support options and have some place in high-end pve, no /sarcasm, I genuinely want to see different specs that are able support other than the usual ~4.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

    Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

    why?

    again, abolish all classes but scrapper? How about not-every-class-is-awesome-at-everything?

    Where did I say that I wanted to abolish all classes?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, only this spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

    Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps option with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

    You do realize that most classes have elite specs for different game modes and roles.

    Why should engineers need multiple PvE power dps builds? Holosmith is great at PvE power damage. Why would you intentionally stiffle the design possibilties of Scrapper by forcing more damage onto the specialization and make balance potentially even worse/hard?

    DD/DE are nearly identical in how they play: autoattack to win and press a utility skill every 20-30 seconds. The main reason being thiefs initiative design. You want Arenanet to copy this simplicity to engineer?

    Tempest and Weaver again share a vast majority of the elementalists core abilities and utilities.

    Let's look at which classes do not have multiple builds fullfilling the same role on different elite specializations:

    • mesmer
    • necromancer
    • engineer
    • guardian
    • revenant
    • ranger

    The last outlier is warrior who once again achieves his power damage via his core weapons mostly with variations what his elite specializations provide. Now why do you believe engineer deserves a different treatment than 2/3s of all classes?

    Hmm, I never said to get rid of the supportive capabilities of scrapper.

    If all professions according to the instinctive need to pigeonhole are not allowed to have two similar roles or designed to have one specific role (i.e. dps, although raids created the differentiation of power/condi) then I would have to say the possibilities and popularity of future especs looks pretty bleak. Some professions are technically ‘done’ - guardian, it has its power & condi dps and also support options. What’s its next espec gonna be? Tanky pvp oriented, useless in pve wall that does does nothing but tank? Theorhetically:

    • Guard is done
    • Rev is done (although its power option is really weak because it’s support /sigh. Even then, herald support is still very weak)
    • Ranger is done (druid is kinda sad however with its support only option)
    • Thief is done (could use a more effective support build, but how many would play thief to heal/support like a druid/fb? DD could use condi buffs or alternatively, a specifically condi oriented espec could be made)
    • Necro is done
    • Ele is done
    • Mes is done

    Yes, all great noble ideas but there is only so much which is possible with a balance and developer team of a specific size.

    What you completetly omit though is that elite specs, even the ones you mentioned, differentiate themselves not by trinity or role but by game play. Furthermore you are looking at this from only a pve perspective. WvW and Spvp see a lot of different gameplay. Last I checked, Scrapper is the top tier WvW support spec currently right after Firebrand. Both Scrapper and Holosmith see play in WvW in romaing for example.

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    We (or least I) can look at this in multiple ways to try and argue w/e point we’re trying to make. Why is it that every espec can do some sort of dps except druid/scrapper?

    No what you are complaining about is that druid and scrapper do not have meta viable dps specs for pve. That is a very niche role and aspect to the game to look at. Especially from two of the most powerful support specs in the game.

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Throwing a very unproven assumption here, but I suspect more players play dmg roles than support, and if especs are locked out of such option, it has less of a population - especially in high-end pve when it’s support capabilities are or become overshadowed by the meta (druid is dying, albeit very slowly).

    Yes, and meanwhile Support Scrapper is the second best support spec in WvW and a node tank in spvp. Where was druid in WvW again?

    Obviously in an ideal world we would see as many viable builds for each class as possible. This would require near perfect balance. Suffice to say, that is very unlikely to happen. The next best thing in my opinion is at least make every core class viable for as many roles as possible.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, all great noble ideas but there is only so much which is possible with a balance and developer team of a specific size.

    Yes, I’m aware that 80% of my suggestions on this forum are ‘noble’ (so you say) long term goals that anet has to decide whether they want to gradually implement in their future patches or not. Because that’s just how this game rolls.

    What you completetly omit though is that elite specs, even the ones you mentioned, differentiate themselves not by trinity or role but by game play. Furthermore you are looking at this from only a pve perspective. WvW and Spvp see a lot of different gameplay. Last I checked, Scrapper is the top tier WvW support spec currently right after Firebrand. Both Scrapper and Holosmith see play in WvW in romaing for example.

    Don’t tell me that I’ve omitted when you’re capable of doing the same. And congrats, you’ve correctly identified that I mainly focus on pve (please keep this in mind).

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

    So you say scrapper shouldn’t exist in endgame pve unless playing only as a (inefficient) support role? I actually never planned to suggest more dmg or anything really to wvw/pvp scrapper.

    No what you are complaining about is that druid and scrapper do not have meta viable dps specs for pve.

    Not complaining (I am personally unaffected by any changes made to engi or ranger, I only play the three light armor proffessions), I’m just the fool who claims to have ‘noble’ ideas. And I never said meta, the meta is simply too hard to beat - something more aligned with herald dps (which is currently very trash, who would be complaining against giving scrapper higher but still low tier dps?)

    That is a very niche role and aspect to the game to look at. Especially from two of the most powerful support specs in the game.

    I thought we weren’t talking about roles and trying to avoid trinity pigeonholing. I would have admittedly omitted this out of spite.

    There’s a unique variety of tools, additional features and flaws that each different dps builds on different professions bring, it’s never niche unless every skill on the bar does nothing but a dmg number and the rotation is ‘press everything off cd’. Fortunately, scrapper already has function gyro, and its superspeed + stab on its expanse access to cc could find a use somewhere.

    Yes, and meanwhile Support Scrapper is the second best support spec in WvW and a node tank in spvp. Where was druid in WvW again?

    Suggesting 0 changes to wvw/pvp scrapper here. Druid, I’ve highlighted but have formulated no plans to move against (or else I would be spouting said nonsense in the ranger forums).

    Obviously in an ideal world we would see as many viable builds for each class as possible. This would require near perfect balance. Suffice to say, that is very unlikely to happen. The next best thing in my opinion is at least make every core class viable for as many roles as possible.

    Agreed, perfect balance is very unlikely to happen. It is possible that anet keeps things unbalanced to constantly refresh the game. But then again, this isn’t even balance. It’s basically trying to get scrapper a sustained role/s in high-end pve.

    I agree that a lot of problems would be fixed if the core classes were viable by themselves. Especs should ideally be an alternative ‘utility’ line (discipline, virtues, invocations, beastmastery, etc.) that provides options/traits for 3 distinct pathways (pve power/condi dps, selfish sustain, group support, wvw/pvp utility, etc.).

    Having trinity locked especs is unappealing for players who don’t bother with that sort of thing. Gamemode oriented especs are the same for pve/wvw/pvp specific players, thus why I see giving scrapper ‘the other option’ can increase its popularity in the long run, unaffected by whether or not the support/wvw/pvp options fail, since those areas way more volatile and subject to meta shifts (because previously as a pvp-oriented espec, I believe it practically fell out of the entire game at a certain point?).

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    snip

    You missunderstood what I meant with core classes being viable.

    I meant literally any base class should have access to as many roles as possible via its elite specializations. I'd rather Arenanet first balance so every class has a viable condition damage, support and power damage build on any of its elite specializations available before we start worrying about if every elite specialization has multiple viable endgame pve builds (as noted, when factoring for all game modes, it becomes evident that certain elite specializations were made with other game modes in mind).

    Engineer has a condi and power dps build on Holosmith and a support build on Scrapper for pve. It has those 3 bases covered and is lacking a boon support build to some extent.

    As to trinity pigeon holding, yeah that ship sailed with HoT and raids for challenging PvE endgame content. Ever since dedicated heal supports were added as well as boon supports, this game has a soft trinity.

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

    Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

    Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

    The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

    • one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
    • when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

    Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

    So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

    I think you're misunderstanding me. The player I initially responded to was specifically talking about Gorseval, where you can pretty comfortably bring only one healer, even in pugs. That has zero to do with the idea of making quickness a 10-man buff. It's just a preference for that boss. Making quickness a 10 man buff would (generally) allow groups to bring one more pure DPS in place of their second chrono/QB, not two. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of the second extra DPS from (as it pertains to this idea, of removing the need for the second Chrono).

    The issue you raise about support Chrono again becoming too powerful to the exclusion of other classes is a good point. There are several solutions. I believe Alacren and QB both do much higher DPS than supp Chrono, so possibly it may not even be a huge problem as it stands (ie, they may already offer that trade-off).

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

    Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

    Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

    The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

    • one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
    • when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

    Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

    So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

    I think you're misunderstanding me. The player I initially responded to was specifically talking about Gorseval, where you can pretty comfortable bring only one healer, even in pugs. That has zero to do with the idea of making quickness a 10-man buff. It's just a preference for that boss. Making quickness a 10 man buff would (generally) allow groups to bring one more pure DPS in place of their second chrono/QB, not two. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of the second extra DPS from (as it pertains to this idea, of removing the need for the second Chrono).

    The issue you raise about support Chrono again becoming too powerful to the exclusion of other classes is a good point. There are several solutions. I believe Alacren and QB both do much higher DPS than supp Chrono, so possible it may not even be a huge problem as it stands (ie, they may already offer that trade-off).

    not once did i mention gors tho, you can check yourself by scrolling up. and, no edit either

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    2 extra dps, no?

    pugs still run double chrono double healer

    And what would choosing to run single heal on Gors have to do with buffing quickness to 10 man?

    Skipping mechanics, phasing the Boss faster, making the requirement on player skill lower. Take your pick.

    Two extra dps is literally close to 30% more raid damage.

    The effect of this was already witnessed twice in the past:

    • one when banners became 10 man, allowing for only 1 Banner warrior and opening up a dps slot
    • when druid buffs became 10 man, allowing for solo druid setups

    Both of those cases made raids significantly easier.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Just make Chrono and FB buffs 10-man (at least in PVE). They did it with spirits, they did it with banners. It would make assembling a pug raid so much easier.

    This would be a huge Buff, this would make many older Raid bosses too easy. Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be:
    1 chrono
    1druid
    1 bs
    7 dps
    Skipping mechanics with high dps output would be way too easy.

    So.... 1 extra DPS? :)

    ANet could simply adjust boss HP. Or not. I wouldn't mind raids being easier, as it might get more people into them. I think the quality of life improvement would be well worth it, regardless.

    Its not that easy to adjust every boss HP you know ^^ also raids are way too easy already so lets not start that ok 😅

    We're talking about a 200-300 person development studio. I'm quite sure they could figure out the average DPS difference bringing one true DPS rather than 1 support Chrono.

    So why bring a Firebrand or Renegade again? Chrono provides 10-man quickness and Alacrity on 1 raid slot. Firebrand and Renegade take two spots.

    I think you're misunderstanding me. The player I initially responded to was specifically talking about Gorseval, where you can pretty comfortable bring only one healer, even in pugs. That has zero to do with the idea of making quickness a 10-man buff. It's just a preference for that boss. Making quickness a 10 man buff would (generally) allow groups to bring one more pure DPS in place of their second chrono/QB, not two. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of the second extra DPS from (as it pertains to this idea, of removing the need for the second Chrono).

    The issue you raise about support Chrono again becoming too powerful to the exclusion of other classes is a good point. There are several solutions. I believe Alacren and QB both do much higher DPS than supp Chrono, so possible it may not even be a huge problem as it stands (ie, they may already offer that trade-off).

    not once did i mention gors tho, you can check yourself by scrolling up. and, no edit either

    "Think about gorseval, with ur suggestion Squad composition would be..."

    I think you're responding to the wrong person.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As to trinity pigeon holding, yeah that ship sailed with HoT and raids for challenging PvE endgame content. Ever since dedicated heal supports were added as well as boon supports, this game has a soft trinity.

    Not gonna argue previous point any further, but still wanted point out that by realeasing certain PoF specs (ones with both dmg and support capabilities) and diviner gear, I believe the devs do seem to want to return back to their original philosophy. I’ll remain optimistic, even if it might mean I’ll get disappointed later on.

    ~

    On the original topic, I feel the need to say that the scrapper traitline is set up to be horribly selfish, whilst the gyro skills look ‘slapped on’ to give the spec some resemblance of a support role (with the only skills worth noting being function and bulwark gyro) - whatever support that currently comes out of scrapper actually comes mostly from core. It’s like a banner spellbreaker, where you could just play core itself for fairly minimal loss.

    Unfortunately, scrapper was never sold to be a dedicated support espec and anet has apparently stuck to its guns, not having budged from this original design:

    They bring a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the enegineer.

    For quickness/alacrity sharing, the question here is ‘does it thematically fit with scrapper?’ or, ‘on which current skills would they thematically fit?’. If nothing works, these two specific boons might have to wait until the next espec, while access to what I like to call ‘general boons’ (the usual 4-6) could be improved. If we leave both boons for the next espec, it could directly contend or work with boon chrono, which could be interesting development for future content.

    There’s also the option of trying to force scrapper into the dedicated tank role (while providing healing), but it seems impossible seeing that the general utility of chronotank is irreplaceable at this point.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2019

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    Unfortunately, scrapper was never sold to be a dedicated support espec and anet has apparently stuck to its guns, not having budged from this original design:

    They bring a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the engineer.

    For quickness/alacrity sharing, the question here is ‘does it thematically fit with scrapper?’ or, ‘on which current skills would they thematically fit?’. If nothing works, these two specific boons might have to wait until the next espec, while access to what I like to call ‘general boons’ (the usual 4-6) could be improved. If we leave both boons for the next espec, it could directly contend or work with boon chrono, which could be interesting development for future content.

    There’s also the option of trying to force scrapper into the dedicated tank role (while providing healing), but it seems impossible seeing that the general utility of chronotank is irreplaceable at this point.

    A Gyro that can be improved with a trait that grants either might/quickness/alicrity to 10 man bit by bit
    (slowly instead of instantly like the renevant can do for 5 man with might)
    Would be interesting to see yes

    Would be interesting to see scrapper in the tank role, not sure how Anet could put scrapper in that role
    Do see firebrand/scrapper in the tank role because they can share boons with their allies but thats it

    Thematically Scrapper would look awesome as a tank, while still being able support their allies a bit with a ranged rezz
    (usefull if the healer is down and needs a instant rezz or help with a rezz for a quick save )

    It looks great in my mind but I cant think of a way they could implant something like that without changing the hole class
    Best and easiest thing anet could do is giving the scrapper the option to be a dps class by making it possible in the trait section

    They would still have their old powers for pvp/wvw but if they want to go dps they have to sacrifice their healing and tanking for it

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:>
    On the original topic, I feel the need to say that the scrapper traitline is set up to be horribly selfish, whilst the gyro skills look ‘slapped on’ to give the spec some resemblance of a support role (with the only skills worth noting being function and bulwark gyro) - whatever support that currently comes out of scrapper actually comes mostly from core. It’s like a banner spellbreaker, where you could just play core itself for fairly minimal loss.

    This selfishness is the reason why Kitty's been running core engi instead of scrapper ever since she created her heal-engi build in october 2017. Only things Scrapper-spec provides is a bit of heals thru Rapid Regeneration+Medical Dispersion Field interaction and some barrier+damage redirection with Bulwark Gyro. And Function Gyro but Kitty's never really felt a need for ranged ress. Taking Explosions-trait line would help with might output and tiny bit of vulnerability and taking Tools reduces the toolbelt cooldowns, auto-self stun break and same self-quickness as scrapper. 15% cooldown reduction mightn't sound like much but it does help.

    Unfortunately, scrapper was never sold to be a dedicated support espec and anet has apparently stuck to its guns, not having budged from this original design:

    It's always been a bruiser build and will stay as such, even after revamps.

    For quickness/alacrity sharing, the question here is ‘does it thematically fit with scrapper?’ or, ‘on which current skills would they thematically fit?’. If nothing works, these two specific boons might have to wait until the next espec, while access to what I like to call ‘general boons’ (the usual 4-6) could be improved. If we leave both boons for the next espec, it could directly contend or work with boon chrono, which could be interesting development for future content.

    The general boon access would be improved simply by making Experimental Turrets-trait provide boons to 10 instead of current 5. But Kitty's been asking for that for over a year quite loudly but they haven't changed it (and actually nerfed heal-engi's boon output slightly with elixir changes as RIP Quickness from Toss Elixir U). Fury, regen, swiftness, protection and vigor outputs are decent as of now but might output could use slight improvements by making Blasting Zone provide 2 stacks of might (instead of current 1 stack) and/or increasing HGH's base might duration to 20 seconds. As of now, keeping might even above 20 requires some very precise blasting, using Acid Bomb for blast+HGH might (which also tosses the engi 550 backwards, kinda problematic) on top of piano gameplay and relying on Flame Turret to stay alive for 6 stacks of might uptime. And heal-engi is also quite slow at getting the might stacks started compared to other healers (though they last long once you get them on ppls).

    There’s also the option of trying to force scrapper into the dedicated tank role (while providing healing), but it seems impossible seeing that the general utility of chronotank is irreplaceable at this point.

    You know, heal-engi is actually quite good at this utility-thing while tanking. For ex. at ranged Deimos it can drop Rifle turret at middle when boss starts to provide high fury for sub thru the fight and when you move to range, you can keep on shooting elixirs and Infusion Bomb there to provide might, vigor, regen and swiftness. Meanwhile chrono can oilkite for you while throwing wells at the middle and also using SoI between the oils.
    The main reason why everyone requires a chronotank is that people think it's the only class with suitable tank utilities and that other classes can't counter the mechanics a chrono needs to deal with or other supports' support ability is somehow nerfed when tanking. And these "reasons" are false as pretty much any support can tank any boss if you know how to do it (Kitty has tanking videos on pretty much all support builds). Chrono simply has somewhat easier time at it than others. And having to stand still through knockbacking mechanics also isn't a problem for likes of tank-elementalist, engineer, herald or thief.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .