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Hi, Can we have a Roadmap for PvE?

tim.4596

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

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Zaklex.6308

Zaklex.6308

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@zealex.9410 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Anet is not going to tell you when they next raid is coming out, nor should they. Too much can happen in this industry in too short a time. No reason to build expectations only to later have people call them liars. Not like it hasn't happened already.

we dont want specific dates. just tell us there is somethinganet is in silent mode and it's not good for the game

I want dates, i believe anet is perfectly capable to provide that, im sure they have them internally like many other studios do. Q timeframes also work.

Technically, ArenaNet's dates for content are "when it's done"...now tell me how you would provide information to the community that something is on it's way with a date of when it's coming, when you don't even know it's going to be finished?

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

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zealex.9410

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Anet is not going to tell you when they next raid is coming out, nor should they. Too much can happen in this industry in too short a time. No reason to build expectations only to later have people call them liars. Not like it hasn't happened already.

we dont want specific dates. just tell us there is somethinganet is in silent mode and it's not good for the game

I want dates, i believe anet is perfectly capable to provide that, im sure they have them internally like many other studios do. Q timeframes also work.

Technically, ArenaNet's dates for content are "when it's done"...now tell me how you would provide information to the community that something is on it's way with a date of when it's coming, when you don't even know it's going to be finished?

If they dont know when something will be relatively done they have a bad time managing projects and that honestly shows in se4 which was hella inconsistent.

Id personally look to manage the scale of what im making to fit a schedule as i think that having a consistent schedule is better for the studio and the players. Then having set that schedule id let the players know of the overall bigger plans ( if we are planning on an expansions when do we think the expansion will be around etc).

Poe does a great job at managing expectation as well as giving out a general idea of what u should expect and when as well as what they are working on for the short term as well as the long term.

I just dont see how a b2p mmo that ppl estimate a population of around 1mill(if not more) plus cant set internal and external expectation and manage a schedule as well as a f2p title.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said. Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view. If they need years to come out with an expansion, there's no reason to announce it until it's closer. They said when the second expansion came out they'd announce it closer to launch. I don't see any reason to assume that's changed. And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA. But it was still closer to release.

There was tons of speculation that there would never be an expansion before HoT and Anet still waited to announce it is my point.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Anet is not going to tell you when they next raid is coming out, nor should they. Too much can happen in this industry in too short a time. No reason to build expectations only to later have people call them liars. Not like it hasn't happened already.

we dont want specific dates. just tell us there is somethinganet is in silent mode and it's not good for the game

I want dates, i believe anet is perfectly capable to provide that, im sure they have them internally like many other studios do. Q timeframes also work.

Technically, ArenaNet's dates for content are "when it's done"...now tell me how you would provide information to the community that something is on it's way with a date of when it's coming, when you don't even know it's going to be finished?

If they dont know when something will be relatively done they have a bad time managing projects and that honestly shows in se4 which was hella inconsistent.

Id personally look to manage the scale of what im making to fit a schedule as i think that having a consistent schedule is better for the studio and the players. Then having set that schedule id let the players know of the overall bigger plans ( if we are planning on an expansions when do we think the expansion will be around etc).

Poe does a great job at managing expectation as well as giving out a general idea of what u should expect and when as well as what they are working on for the short term as well as the long term.

I just dont see how a b2p mmo that ppl estimate a population of around 1mill(if not more) plus cant set internal and external expectation and manage a schedule as well as a f2p title.

Poe is not an MMO and most MMOs doesn't do this, because it's harder to get stuff done in MMOs. Lobby games are easier to both program and maintain. That's just the way it is. It was far easier to create stuff for Guild Wars 1 than Guild Wars 2. Even stuff like dynamic events instead of a quest hub system takes a lot longer.

They're dealing with an older engine, and there's a lot of spaghetti code. Problems with that make it harder to program. Sure you could say they're worse at getting stuff down now. But the truth of the matter is probably that the code is getting older and there's been more tunover, so deciphering stuff takes a lot longer and producing stuff is more likely to encounter bugs.

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said. Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view. If they need years to come out with an expansion, there's no reason to announce it until it's closer. They said when the second expansion came out they'd announce it closer to launch. I don't see any reason to assume that's changed. And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA. But it was still closer to release.

There was tons of speculation that there would never be an expansion before HoT and Anet still waited to announce it is my point.

Im not talking about revealing the expac and announcing it to the masses in a big way like they did with hot way way before it was ready for that. Im simply refering to them making it public that pof was in development 16 months before the reveal without any real hype trains or advertisement. That didnt hurt anyone.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said. Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view. If they need years to come out with an expansion, there's no reason to announce it until it's closer. They said when the second expansion came out they'd announce it closer to launch. I don't see any reason to assume that's changed. And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA. But it was still closer to release.

There was tons of speculation that there would never be an expansion before HoT and Anet still waited to announce it is my point.

Im not talking about revealing the expac and announcing it to the masses in a big way like they did with hot way way before it was ready for that. Im simply refering to them making it public that pof was in development 16 months before the reveal without any real hype trains or advertisement. That didnt hurt anyone.

The impact of that reveal was down to the fact that no one saw it coming. If they had knowledge prior to that, that reveal would have been much more subdued. I know what you're talking about. I'm saying there are reason not to talk about stuff to early. You may not agree, but it's not going to change my mind. Having run a business, I know there are times when you have to play your cards close to your chest, even if people want to know stuff. Too much can change. Too much depends on other things. It's better not not say until you're certain. This community has the annoying tendency to bandy about words like liar when things change. I'm sure that's just as bad for the game as not knowing if an expansion is eventually coming out.

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zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Anet is not going to tell you when they next raid is coming out, nor should they. Too much can happen in this industry in too short a time. No reason to build expectations only to later have people call them liars. Not like it hasn't happened already.

we dont want specific dates. just tell us there is somethinganet is in silent mode and it's not good for the game

I want dates, i believe anet is perfectly capable to provide that, im sure they have them internally like many other studios do. Q timeframes also work.

Technically, ArenaNet's dates for content are "when it's done"...now tell me how you would provide information to the community that something is on it's way with a date of when it's coming, when you don't even know it's going to be finished?

If they dont know when something will be relatively done they have a bad time managing projects and that honestly shows in se4 which was hella inconsistent.

Id personally look to manage the scale of what im making to fit a schedule as i think that having a consistent schedule is better for the studio and the players. Then having set that schedule id let the players know of the overall bigger plans ( if we are planning on an expansions when do we think the expansion will be around etc).

Poe does a great job at managing expectation as well as giving out a general idea of what u should expect and when as well as what they are working on for the short term as well as the long term.

I just dont see how a b2p mmo that ppl estimate a population of around 1mill(if not more) plus cant set internal and external expectation and manage a schedule as well as a f2p title.

Poe is not an MMO and most MMOs doesn't do this, because it's harder to get stuff done in MMOs. Lobby games are easier to both program and maintain. That's just the way it is. It was far easier to create stuff for Guild Wars 1 than Guild Wars 2. Even stuff like dynamic events instead of a quest hub system takes a lot longer.

Poe is not an mmo but still does put out a staggering amount of changes and content compaired to all other arpgs yet they still manage to hold a schedule and know how things are looking ahead of whats now in game. Im not saying developing an arpg and an mmo would be the same but im sure anet having done it for 7 years they are aware with whats the process and how things are working.

Plus quest hubs are the least of the stuff they add to poe, u act like the gw2 events are revolutionary and that hard system to make but poe comes out every season with mechanics that could very well be their own game and they do so on schedule.

They're dealing with an older engine, and there's a lot of spaghetti code. Problems with that make it harder to program. Sure you could say they're worse at getting stuff down now. But the truth of the matter is probably that the code is getting older and there's been more tunover, so deciphering stuff takes a lot longer and producing stuff is more likely to encounter bugs.

And that doesnt apply to all other games? Poe might have released a year after gw2 but its been in development for as early as 2009 if not longer and the game has its own issues.

Wow, ESO, FF14 all also have far better communication in whats going on and give better timelines for players to follow.

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zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said. Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view. If they need years to come out with an expansion, there's no reason to announce it until it's closer. They said when the second expansion came out they'd announce it closer to launch. I don't see any reason to assume that's changed. And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA. But it was still closer to release.

There was tons of speculation that there would never be an expansion before HoT and Anet still waited to announce it is my point.

Im not talking about revealing the expac and announcing it to the masses in a big way like they did with hot way way before it was ready for that. Im simply refering to them making it public that pof was in development 16 months before the reveal without any real hype trains or advertisement. That didnt hurt anyone.

The impact of that reveal was down to the fact that no one saw it coming. If they had knowledge prior to that, that reveal would have been much more subdued. I know what you're talking about. I'm saying there are reason not to talk about stuff to early. You may not agree, but it's not going to change my mind. Having run a business, I know there are times when you have to play your cards close to your chest, even if people want to know stuff. Too much can change. Too much depends on other things. It's better not not say until you're certain. This community has the annoying tendency to bandy about words like liar when things change. I'm sure that's just as bad for the game as not knowing if an expansion is eventually coming out.

But you are missing the point. Anet got burned with hot reveal becayse they set false expectations, usually when players see gameplay trailers and story and cutscenes and all that jazz on a big stage they tent to get the impression that the game is near completion or release ( like all the other mmos do it).

On the other hand just. saying. expac 2 is in the works creates no such expecations other than they working on it. You are compairing 2 completely different things.

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Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Anet is not going to tell you when they next raid is coming out, nor should they. Too much can happen in this industry in too short a time. No reason to build expectations only to later have people call them liars. Not like it hasn't happened already.

we dont want specific dates. just tell us there is somethinganet is in silent mode and it's not good for the game

I want dates, i believe anet is perfectly capable to provide that, im sure they have them internally like many other studios do. Q timeframes also work.

Technically, ArenaNet's dates for content are "when it's done"...now tell me how you would provide information to the community that something is on it's way with a date of when it's coming, when you don't even know it's going to be finished?

If they dont know when something will be relatively done they have a bad time managing projects and that honestly shows in se4 which was hella inconsistent.

Id personally look to manage the scale of what im making to fit a schedule as i think that having a consistent schedule is better for the studio and the players. Then having set that schedule id let the players know of the overall bigger plans ( if we are planning on an expansions when do we think the expansion will be around etc).

Poe does a great job at managing expectation as well as giving out a general idea of what u should expect and when as well as what they are working on for the short term as well as the long term.

I just dont see how a b2p mmo that ppl estimate a population of around 1mill(if not more) plus cant set internal and external expectation and manage a schedule as well as a f2p title.

Poe is not an MMO and most MMOs doesn't do this, because it's harder to get stuff done in MMOs. Lobby games are easier to both program and maintain. That's just the way it is. It was far easier to create stuff for Guild Wars 1 than Guild Wars 2. Even stuff like dynamic events instead of a quest hub system takes a lot longer.

Poe is not an mmo but still does put out a staggering amount of changes and content compaired to all other arpgs yet they still manage to hold a schedule and know how things are looking ahead of whats now in game. Im not saying developing an arpg and an mmo would be the same but im sure anet having done it for 7 years they are aware with whats the process and how things are working.

Plus quest hubs are the least of the stuff they add to poe, u act like the gw2 events are revolutionary and that hard system to make but poe comes out every season with mechanics that could very well be their own game and they do so on schedule.

They're dealing with an older engine, and there's a lot of spaghetti code. Problems with that make it harder to program. Sure you could say they're worse at getting stuff down now. But the truth of the matter is probably that the code is getting older and there's been more tunover, so deciphering stuff takes a lot longer and producing stuff is more likely to encounter bugs.

And that doesnt apply to all other games? Poe might have released a year after gw2 but its been in development for as early as 2009 if not longer and the game has its own issues.

Wow, ESO, FF14 all also have far better communication in whats going on and give better timelines for players to follow.

But did Poe used a modified engine that was much older. The Guild Wars 2 engine is based at least in part of the Guild Wars 1 engine. The engine makes a difference, and in many cases a huge difference. The amount of people working on a game make a difference. What I'm saying is every single project is different. I ran a shop and five blocks away another guy ran a shop. They were the same type of shop, but they had complete different problems due to location. Things change from company to company. Saying this company that produces a different game with a different engine can produce stuff faster is relevant how exactly?

Sometimes just the number of hands that worked on it, with different devs having different documentation skills can make a world of difference. Maybe it was mismanaged five years ago or even before launch, and now with the lack of documentation on older code it's even harder. I don't know and neither do you. But there's nothing more annoying in a business to say that other businesses can do this why can't you because every business IS different.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said. Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view. If they need years to come out with an expansion, there's no reason to announce it until it's closer. They said when the second expansion came out they'd announce it closer to launch. I don't see any reason to assume that's changed. And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA. But it was still closer to release.

There was tons of speculation that there would never be an expansion before HoT and Anet still waited to announce it is my point.

Im not talking about revealing the expac and announcing it to the masses in a big way like they did with hot way way before it was ready for that. Im simply refering to them making it public that pof was in development 16 months before the reveal without any real hype trains or advertisement. That didnt hurt anyone.

The impact of that reveal was down to the fact that no one saw it coming. If they had knowledge prior to that, that reveal would have been much more subdued. I know what you're talking about. I'm saying there are reason not to talk about stuff to early. You may not agree, but it's not going to change my mind. Having run a business, I know there are times when you have to play your cards close to your chest, even if people want to know stuff. Too much can change. Too much depends on other things. It's better not not say until you're certain. This community has the annoying tendency to bandy about words like liar when things change. I'm sure that's just as bad for the game as not knowing if an expansion is eventually coming out.

But you are missing the point. Anet got burned with hot reveal becayse they set false expectations, usually when players see gameplay trailers and story and cutscenes and all that jazz on a big stage they tent to get the impression that the game is near completion or release ( like all the other mmos do it).

On the other hand just. saying. expac 2 is in the works creates no such expecations other than they working on it. You are compairing 2 completely different things.

Anet got burned for a lot of reasons with the HoT reveal. You saying something doesn't make it true. And the expectations I had of HOT were pretty much straight on. People were mad about a lot of things in HoT, but even not counting any of the issues (400 points required for elite spec on launch, needing poison resistence before continuing the story, bugs in general, TD being too hard, the jungle itself having a huge learning curve for enemies, the complexity of the maps, the character slot debacle, it wasn't just one thing), even setting all that aside, people got bored waiting after the announcement. Some people left before it came out because the wait itself was too long. This does happen, and it's talked about in the industry which is why announcing stuff is done when it's done, not when we want it. You might disagree with me, but you'd have to first change the mind of the industry about this. When you announce is part of a business strategy that's pretty important.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Anet is not going to tell you when they next raid is coming out, nor should they. Too much can happen in this industry in too short a time. No reason to build expectations only to later have people call them liars. Not like it hasn't happened already.

we dont want specific dates. just tell us there is somethinganet is in silent mode and it's not good for the game

I want dates, i believe anet is perfectly capable to provide that, im sure they have them internally like many other studios do. Q timeframes also work.

Technically, ArenaNet's dates for content are "when it's done"...now tell me how you would provide information to the community that something is on it's way with a date of when it's coming, when you don't even know it's going to be finished?

If they dont know when something will be relatively done they have a bad time managing projects and that honestly shows in se4 which was hella inconsistent.

Id personally look to manage the scale of what im making to fit a schedule as i think that having a consistent schedule is better for the studio and the players. Then having set that schedule id let the players know of the overall bigger plans ( if we are planning on an expansions when do we think the expansion will be around etc).

Poe does a great job at managing expectation as well as giving out a general idea of what u should expect and when as well as what they are working on for the short term as well as the long term.

I just dont see how a b2p mmo that ppl estimate a population of around 1mill(if not more) plus cant set internal and external expectation and manage a schedule as well as a f2p title.

Poe is not an MMO and most MMOs doesn't do this, because it's harder to get stuff done in MMOs. Lobby games are easier to both program and maintain. That's just the way it is. It was far easier to create stuff for Guild Wars 1 than Guild Wars 2. Even stuff like dynamic events instead of a quest hub system takes a lot longer.

Poe is not an mmo but still does put out a staggering amount of changes and content compaired to all other arpgs yet they still manage to hold a schedule and know how things are looking ahead of whats now in game. Im not saying developing an arpg and an mmo would be the same but im sure anet having done it for 7 years they are aware with whats the process and how things are working.

Plus quest hubs are the least of the stuff they add to poe, u act like the gw2 events are revolutionary and that hard system to make but poe comes out every season with mechanics that could very well be their own game and they do so on schedule.

They're dealing with an older engine, and there's a lot of spaghetti code. Problems with that make it harder to program. Sure you could say they're worse at getting stuff down now. But the truth of the matter is probably that the code is getting older and there's been more tunover, so deciphering stuff takes a lot longer and producing stuff is more likely to encounter bugs.

And that doesnt apply to all other games? Poe might have released a year after gw2 but its been in development for as early as 2009 if not longer and the game has its own issues.

Wow, ESO, FF14 all also have far better communication in whats going on and give better timelines for players to follow.

But did Poe used a modified engine that was much older. The Guild Wars 2 engine is based at least in part of the Guild Wars 1 engine. The engine makes a difference, and in many cases a huge difference. The amount of people working on a game make a difference. What I'm saying is every single project is different. I ran a shop and five blocks away another guy ran a shop. They were the same type of shop, but they had complete different problems due to location. Things change from company to company. Saying this company that produces a different game with a different engine can produce stuff faster is relevant how exactly?

Sometimes just the number of hands that worked on it, with different devs having different documentation skills can make a world of difference. Maybe it was mismanaged five years ago or even before launch, and now with the lack of documentation on older code it's even harder. I don't know and neither do you. But there's nothing more annoying in a business to say that other businesses can do this why can't you because every business IS different.

Its not really about speed its about consistency and communication. If anet cant set scope nor canncommunicate how is something progressing then thats not really an issue of the type of game but rather easy with their internal work flow.

And tbh, how diff is every episode from the next that they need to search uncharted waters in their code to make largely set format of lw episodes work?

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said. Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view. If they need years to come out with an expansion, there's no reason to announce it until it's closer. They said when the second expansion came out they'd announce it closer to launch. I don't see any reason to assume that's changed. And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA. But it was still closer to release.

There was tons of speculation that there would never be an expansion before HoT and Anet still waited to announce it is my point.

Im not talking about revealing the expac and announcing it to the masses in a big way like they did with hot way way before it was ready for that. Im simply refering to them making it public that pof was in development 16 months before the reveal without any real hype trains or advertisement. That didnt hurt anyone.

The impact of that reveal was down to the fact that no one saw it coming. If they had knowledge prior to that, that reveal would have been much more subdued. I know what you're talking about. I'm saying there are reason not to talk about stuff to early. You may not agree, but it's not going to change my mind. Having run a business, I know there are times when you have to play your cards close to your chest, even if people want to know stuff. Too much can change. Too much depends on other things. It's better not not say until you're certain. This community has the annoying tendency to bandy about words like liar when things change. I'm sure that's just as bad for the game as not knowing if an expansion is eventually coming out.

But you are missing the point. Anet got burned with hot reveal becayse they set false expectations, usually when players see gameplay trailers and story and cutscenes and all that jazz on a big stage they tent to get the impression that the game is near completion or release ( like all the other mmos do it).

On the other hand just. saying. expac 2 is in the works creates no such expecations other than they working on it. You are compairing 2 completely different things.

Anet got burned for a lot of reasons with the HoT reveal. You saying something doesn't make it true. And the expectations I had of HOT were pretty much straight on. People were mad about a lot of things in HoT, but even not counting any of the issues (400 points required for elite spec on launch, needing poison resistence before continuing the story, bugs in general, TD being too hard, the jungle itself having a huge learning curve for enemies, the complexity of the maps, the character slot debacle, it wasn't just one thing), even setting all that aside, people got bored waiting after the announcement. Some people left before it came out because the wait itself was too long. This does happen, and it's talked about in the industry which is why announcing stuff is done when it's done, not when we want it. You might disagree with me, but you'd have to first change the mind of the industry about this. When you announce is part of a business strategy that's pretty important.

Im strictly refering to how revealing hot too early into the expac's production hurt them, im not talking about whether ppl liked what we got or not, im talking about how the early reveal killed alot of the excitement.

And you still think that simply stating that something is being worked on is the same as having a huge presentation about how it works with footage and all that jazz.

On one the "when its ready" fits perfectly and players are fine with it knowing that it exists and its in the works, on the other u would be laughed at if you did an entire presentation only to tell ppl "when its ready" or even worse say nothing and let all the excitement and the hype die.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Anet is not going to tell you when they next raid is coming out, nor should they. Too much can happen in this industry in too short a time. No reason to build expectations only to later have people call them liars. Not like it hasn't happened already.

we dont want specific dates. just tell us there is somethinganet is in silent mode and it's not good for the game

I want dates, i believe anet is perfectly capable to provide that, im sure they have them internally like many other studios do. Q timeframes also work.

Technically, ArenaNet's dates for content are "when it's done"...now tell me how you would provide information to the community that something is on it's way with a date of when it's coming, when you don't even know it's going to be finished?

If they dont know when something will be relatively done they have a bad time managing projects and that honestly shows in se4 which was hella inconsistent.

Id personally look to manage the scale of what im making to fit a schedule as i think that having a consistent schedule is better for the studio and the players. Then having set that schedule id let the players know of the overall bigger plans ( if we are planning on an expansions when do we think the expansion will be around etc).

Poe does a great job at managing expectation as well as giving out a general idea of what u should expect and when as well as what they are working on for the short term as well as the long term.

I just dont see how a b2p mmo that ppl estimate a population of around 1mill(if not more) plus cant set internal and external expectation and manage a schedule as well as a f2p title.

Poe is not an MMO and most MMOs doesn't do this, because it's harder to get stuff done in MMOs. Lobby games are easier to both program and maintain. That's just the way it is. It was far easier to create stuff for Guild Wars 1 than Guild Wars 2. Even stuff like dynamic events instead of a quest hub system takes a lot longer.

Poe is not an mmo but still does put out a staggering amount of changes and content compaired to all other arpgs yet they still manage to hold a schedule and know how things are looking ahead of whats now in game. Im not saying developing an arpg and an mmo would be the same but im sure anet having done it for 7 years they are aware with whats the process and how things are working.

Plus quest hubs are the least of the stuff they add to poe, u act like the gw2 events are revolutionary and that hard system to make but poe comes out every season with mechanics that could very well be their own game and they do so on schedule.

They're dealing with an older engine, and there's a lot of spaghetti code. Problems with that make it harder to program. Sure you could say they're worse at getting stuff down now. But the truth of the matter is probably that the code is getting older and there's been more tunover, so deciphering stuff takes a lot longer and producing stuff is more likely to encounter bugs.

And that doesnt apply to all other games? Poe might have released a year after gw2 but its been in development for as early as 2009 if not longer and the game has its own issues.

Wow, ESO, FF14 all also have far better communication in whats going on and give better timelines for players to follow.

But did Poe used a modified engine that was much older. The Guild Wars 2 engine is based at least in part of the Guild Wars 1 engine. The engine makes a difference, and in many cases a huge difference. The amount of people working on a game make a difference. What I'm saying is every single project is different. I ran a shop and five blocks away another guy ran a shop. They were the same type of shop, but they had complete different problems due to location. Things change from company to company. Saying this company that produces a different game with a different engine can produce stuff faster is relevant how exactly?

Sometimes just the number of hands that worked on it, with different devs having different documentation skills can make a world of difference. Maybe it was mismanaged five years ago or even before launch, and now with the lack of documentation on older code it's even harder. I don't know and neither do you. But there's nothing more annoying in a business to say that other businesses can do this why can't you because every business IS different.

Its not really about speed its about consistency and communication. If anet cant set scope nor canncommunicate how is something progressing then thats not really an issue of the type of game but rather easy with their internal work flow.

And tbh, how diff is every episode from the next that they need to search uncharted waters in their code to make largely set format of lw episodes work?

How different is their code? Do you have any idea how many things break when other things are added in games this complex? Things that have nothing to do with each other. The Silverwastes broke SAB? Why? Who the hell knows. It's just not that easy. There was a bug in Ultima Underworld years ago, when you crossed a certain bridge, everything in your inventory turned into fish. The was no good reason for it to happen, but it did. Many bugs that pop up in this game after patches have nothing to do with the content being released, but the bugs are still introduced. Everything is interrelated. Subroutines are used universally. A simple change made to any subroutine to allow something to work properly or better, maybe something like Oakheart's Essence in Draconis Mons can throw other things out of whack. It happens. There are historically in MMOs many examples of changes that shouldn't have broken things that have, even things that seem completely unrelated. Trust me spaghetti code happens. The more people who work on the code, the more turnover a company has, the more of a problem it becomes.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I think anet used to be more reliable but they got worse at it as time went on. Dont forget we had word on pof months before se3. The other projects taking expac lvl resources from gw2 makes alot of sense but these projects have also now been cancelled for months, if anet is unsure if they want to have an expansion for so long while claiming "renewed focus on gw2" then i think thats very worrying for the game.

Path of Fire was announced here:
After Season 3 was over. When did they give word that Path of Fire was coming? I don't doubt they announced it earlier but I can't seem to find anything

We learned later that it was called pof, but we know that what is now pof was in the works before even se3. It was during their first big ama post near the end of the hot content drought.

But prior to the HoT announcement, no one knew in expansion was coming and there was quite a lot of argument over it. I was one of the people who believed Anet was working on an an expansion and in that case I turned out to be right. I also believe there will be another future expansion, but I don't think they're ready to announce it yet. However, they might still decide not not going the expansion route and release what they've been working on as part of the living world.

My point is the assumption they used to be better at delivering on stuff doesn't hold weight, if you remember how the annoucement of HoT went. We did know about POF which was more recent. We didn't know an expansion was coming in the case of HOT, until the big reveal at...I think it was PAX. And I remember the big cheer from the audience when they did announce that first expansion. It was an event that was worthy of the time they took and the hype they made about their announcement at that con. They used that to fuel excitement about the game.

That is to say what's happening now happened a long time ago, and what happened with PoF happened in between. So saying they used to be better at delivering in the past is not necessarily true. Add to that this...HOT which was hyped, likely cost the company playerbase. PoF which was far less hyped, was far better received. Yet many people today think HoT was the better expansion. Saying you're going to have an expansion at some undetermined time in the future isn't necessarily better for business even if you want to know about it. I think Anet did a decent job of delivering content recently, compared with say the 9 month content draught after HOT. People have complained about this game bitterly since a few months after launch when ascended gear was released. Doesn't mean things have changed. It certainly doesn't mean Anet has become worse at delivering content. But people cherry pick points to try to support their argument. There's no argument that I can see for Anet being worse on delivering right now than say, three or four years ago.

In the beginning, people complained about Anet not delivering new zones for example and people who wanted new zones would be more satisfied with the current status than that long ago status. I was unhappy with the 9 months after HoT when all we got were raid wings and PvP tournaments. For my money, Anet is delivering better now.

Not knowing about an expansion? Just like before HOT. Not sure how Anet is better or worse right now in anything. Not even sure how we'd judge.

Hot was their first expac and they were still at an early stage searching on how to progress with the game and cosidering how long the post reveal period was its safe to assume it didnt have alot of time in the over prior to the innitial reveal. Tho iirc hot was discussed between partners for a while befire it was announced.

Pof was also their second expac and they seemed much more confident in their ability to work on one at the time, i just cant see how things would get worse than pof.

Just because there existed an equally bad if not worse state of communication back then (tho at the time of se2 the game felt more alive communication wise) doesnt mean they didnt improve by giving us a word on the the expac a year plus before it was revealed and that imo helped the community and built confidence in the future of the game.

The way things are rn in terms of having ppl in the dark copaired to post hot in my opinion is worse.

Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said. Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view. If they need years to come out with an expansion, there's no reason to announce it until it's closer. They said when the second expansion came out they'd announce it closer to launch. I don't see any reason to assume that's changed. And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA. But it was still closer to release.

There was tons of speculation that there would never be an expansion before HoT and Anet still waited to announce it is my point.

Im not talking about revealing the expac and announcing it to the masses in a big way like they did with hot way way before it was ready for that. Im simply refering to them making it public that pof was in development 16 months before the reveal without any real hype trains or advertisement. That didnt hurt anyone.

The impact of that reveal was down to the fact that no one saw it coming. If they had knowledge prior to that, that reveal would have been much more subdued. I know what you're talking about. I'm saying there are reason not to talk about stuff to early. You may not agree, but it's not going to change my mind. Having run a business, I know there are times when you have to play your cards close to your chest, even if people want to know stuff. Too much can change. Too much depends on other things. It's better not not say until you're certain. This community has the annoying tendency to bandy about words like liar when things change. I'm sure that's just as bad for the game as not knowing if an expansion is eventually coming out.

But you are missing the point. Anet got burned with hot reveal becayse they set false expectations, usually when players see gameplay trailers and story and cutscenes and all that jazz on a big stage they tent to get the impression that the game is near completion or release ( like all the other mmos do it).

On the other hand just. saying. expac 2 is in the works creates no such expecations other than they working on it. You are compairing 2 completely different things.

Anet got burned for a lot of reasons with the HoT reveal. You saying something doesn't make it true. And the expectations I had of HOT were pretty much straight on. People were mad about a lot of things in HoT, but even not counting any of the issues (400 points required for elite spec on launch, needing poison resistence before continuing the story, bugs in general, TD being too hard, the jungle itself having a huge learning curve for enemies, the complexity of the maps, the character slot debacle, it wasn't just one thing), even setting all that aside, people got bored waiting after the announcement. Some people left before it came out because the wait itself was too long. This does happen, and it's talked about in the industry which is why announcing stuff is done when it's done, not when we want it. You might disagree with me, but you'd have to first change the mind of the industry about this. When you announce is part of a business strategy that's pretty important.

Im strictly refering to how revealing hot too early into the expac's production hurt them, im not talking about whether ppl liked what we got or not, im talking about how the early reveal killed alot of the excitement.

And you still think that simply stating that something is being worked on is the same as having a huge presentation about how it works with footage and all that jazz.

On one the "when its ready" fits perfectly and players are fine with it knowing that it exists and its in the works, on the other u would be laughed at if you did an entire presentation only to tell ppl "when its ready" or even worse say nothing and let all the excitement and the hype die.

Of course I don't think that saying something being worked on is the same thing as a reveal. But do you honestly believe that the huge cheer that HoT received at the convention would have been duplicated if every person there, or even most people there knew the expansion was coming and they were already ready for it. Sure they're be interested in the details, but the marketing moment itself would have been completely lost.

I'm saying some information held back will create more buzz when actually released. Will some people be dissatisfied that they don't know sooner. Sure. But if the expansion really isn't around the corner, with all that can change in an MMO, I'd hedge my bets too, and if I were trying to compete in a market, I'd make sure to launch/hype my expansion in the best way possible.

Not like this game is known for its marketing in the first place, but that streamed annnouncement had a lot of viewers, and that huge cheer would have sold some of them, even if they'd had no interest before that. Those kinds of announcement opportunities come few and far between. Perserving those opportunities is good business.

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Thornwolf.9721

Thornwolf.9721

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  • They have nothing to announce, It was pretty clear on the ending of this living world we would not be getting much going forward (At least immediately) I fully believe we were gonna be put on maintenance mode with soft content launches.
  • I don't think they know where they want to go storywise, or even gameplay/new development wise in terms of guild wars 2.
  • We know their other projects hurt them badly, we don't know how badly and how moral is in the office since the lay-offs and projects being canned.
  • There has been no new hires, so fresh blood is not pumping into the game so we can rule that out.
  • Regardless of how they go about it, we will either be mad when they announce and fail to deliver (Has been an issue since launch of the base game.) Or we will be mad that they DONT say anything. Its a loose loose situation for A-net, we as a community bitch and moan alot so I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to talk to us considering how condescending and rude people get.
  • They worry it won't be enough, and if they announce it then they get hounded to release it and that can add stress ontop of stress.

Im not a white knight, Im a harsh critic of this game and the people making it. I call them out alot but I believe alot of above is playing hard into the factor of them not talking and its probably because there is not anything worth talking about. We know about the Restructure for pvp and wvw, and I feel it might of been a mistake to tell us and not just work on it and then pump it out. Because see now if they don't do it then those two modes are dead in the water, worse off then they are now and no one will continue because it will show they won't support those modes (Even if that is not the case, which Im not saying it is one way or another.)

In reality, I think and feel that they just have nothing to show us. There is no punching power in their arms so to speak at least at this moment, they are also watching their competition to see what they are doing so there is that. I feel its a mixture of fear, and perhaps concern that if they come out and make more promises that they find out they cant keep it will become a game of how long they can last with a community who does not trust or believe in them. (Which might be happening regardless of their efforts to prevent it.)

I only hope this passes, I love this game. I Want it to succeed.

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Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

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@"Vayne.8563" said:Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said.But was it really this that had cost them, or was it due to the long content drought between the end of LS2 and HoT launch? Or was that the result of them making the expac according to the expectations of part of a community that turned out far smaller than they expected? Besides, remember why they decided to make HoT in the first place - it was because their LS-based content delivery idea turned out to be lacking, and the game started hemorrhaging players long before they made the announcement. HoT reveal stopped that, at least for a while, and might have worked better if players had anything new to do while waiting.Remember, that PoF (which, you said, was better received) was something we knew would be coming right away. They started talking there will be a future expac even before they finished HoT. So, if announcing early would be a problem, why it wasn't in this case?

Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view.It might be. Keeping the people uncertain for longer periods of time about the future of your product is a bad business as well.

And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA.

It wasn't a single comment. They mentioned "future expansions" plural when they were talking about changes to their pricing model as well. That was before HoT launch. That MO comment was only confirming what we already knew. And we've had other comments about it as well.It wasn't a secret. It was a matter of course.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Doesn't change anything I said. Anet themselves said they announced HoT too early and it cost them. That's what they said.But was it really this that had cost them, or was it due to the long content drought between the end of LS2 and HoT launch? Or was that the result of them making the expac according to the expectations of part of a community that turned out far smaller than they expected? Besides, remember why they decided to make HoT in the first place - it was because their LS-based content delivery idea turned out to be lacking, and the game started hemorrhaging players long before they made the announcement. HoT reveal stopped that, at least for a while, and might have worked better if players had anything new to do while waiting.Remember, that PoF (which, you said, was better received) was something we knew would be coming right away. They started talking there will be a future expac even before they finished HoT. So, if announcing early would be a problem, why it wasn't in this case?

Announcing something a couple of years before it might be out is just bad business from an advertising point of view.It might be. Keeping the people uncertain for longer periods of time about the future of your product is a bad business as well.

And yes, we did know they were working on a second expansion through a single random comment in an AMA.

It wasn't a single comment. They mentioned "future expansions" plural when they were talking about changes to their pricing model as well. That was
before
HoT launch. That MO comment was only confirming what we already knew. And we've had other comments about it as well.It wasn't a secret. It was a matter of course.

There are many factors. Anet has stated they announced it too early. That the wait between the announcement and the release was too long. Is it true? They seem to think so. I agree. They couldn't sustain the hype for long enough and drew it out. Some people lost interest in the wait. Look, we've discussed this to death. Your point of view is that they should tell us what they're doing in the future, because they're a company and thy owe it to us. Other companies do it. My opinion is that they have policy based on their belief and understanding. It's what they believe is best. I'm not even saying I necessarily agree with them. But I do disagree with the idea that somehow they owe is a roadmap prior to when they're ready to release it, whether other companies do that or not. We're never going to agree on this, so I'm just going to let it drop.

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Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

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@Vayne.8563 said:There are many factors. Anet has stated they announced it too early. That the wait between the announcement and the release was too long. Is it true? They seem to think so. I agree. They couldn't sustain the hype for long enough and drew it out. Some people lost interest in the wait.Why then the same didn't happen with PoF even though we knew that expac was being worked on for far longer? And doesn't that suggest that it was not the info about them working on the expac that was the issue in HoT case (or at least not about the info getting out too early)?

Look, we've discussed this to death.Yes, and i still see holes in the reasoning you brought up. The one menioned above being among the most glaring ones.

Your point of view is that they should tell us what they're doing in the future, because they're a company and thy owe it to us.No. I am saying that, especially now, it should be in their own interest to not make people worrying about whether this game has a future.

Other companies do it. My opinion is that they have policy based on their belief and understanding. It's what they believe is best. I'm not even saying I necessarily agree with them. But I do disagree with the idea that somehow they owe is a roadmap prior to when they're ready to release it, whether other companies do that or not. We're never going to agree on this, so I'm just going to let it drop.I don;t think they owe us anything. I just think that, after layoffs, having players worry about the future is not the best idea. They should have put more than just a token effort in trying to reassure everyone that everything is fine. They didn't. So, as i see it, either they don't realize that need (which would mean they are completely out of touch with the community), or things are not fine, and they just don't want us to know it.Neither option is good for the future of this game.

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yann.1946

yann.1946

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:There are many factors. Anet has stated they announced it too early. That the wait between the announcement and the release was too long. Is it true? They seem to think so. I agree. They couldn't sustain the hype for long enough and drew it out. Some people lost interest in the wait.Why then the same didn't happen with PoF even though we knew that expac was being worked on for far longer? And doesn't that suggest that it was
not
the info about them working on the expac that was the issue in HoT case?

Look, we've discussed this to death.Yes, and i still see holes in the reasoning you brought up. The one menioned above being among the most glaring ones.

Your point of view is that they should tell us what they're doing in the future, because they're a company and thy owe it to us.No. I am saying that, especially now, it should be in their own interest to not make people worrying about whether this game has a future.

Other companies do it. My opinion is that they have policy based on their belief and understanding. It's what they believe is best. I'm not even saying I necessarily agree with them. But I do disagree with the idea that somehow they owe is a roadmap prior to when they're ready to release it, whether other companies do that or not. We're never going to agree on this, so I'm just going to let it drop.I don;t think they owe us anything. I just think that, after layoffs, having players worry about the future is not the best idea. They should have put more than just a token effort in trying to reassure everyone that everything is fine. They didn't. So, as i see it, either they don't realize that need (which would mean they are completely out of touch with the community), or things are
not
fine, and they just don't want us to know it.Neither option is good for the future of this game.

I think their will always be people worrying and they did make a statement about what's to come ( the road map).

I would argue that their is more communication then before the layoffs. So the third option is that this thread is out of thouch with the general community and is overestimating the doubt of the community.

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maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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@yann.1946 said:I think their will always be people worrying and they did make a statement about what's to come ( the road map).

Everything on that road map of upcoming features is either already released (final episode of Season 4, latest raid wing) or are things they are developing but not in a final state yet (everything else).

You are saying that the next thing to expect from them is legendary sigils/runes, build templates and cooking to 500?

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tim.4596

tim.4596

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@yann.1946 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:There are many factors. Anet has stated they announced it too early. That the wait between the announcement and the release was too long. Is it true? They seem to think so. I agree. They couldn't sustain the hype for long enough and drew it out. Some people lost interest in the wait.Why then the same didn't happen with PoF even though we knew that expac was being worked on for far longer? And doesn't that suggest that it was
not
the info about them working on the expac that was the issue in HoT case?

Look, we've discussed this to death.Yes, and i still see holes in the reasoning you brought up. The one menioned above being among the most glaring ones.

Your point of view is that they should tell us what they're doing in the future, because they're a company and thy owe it to us.No. I am saying that, especially now, it should be in their own interest to not make people worrying about whether this game has a future.

Other companies do it. My opinion is that they have policy based on their belief and understanding. It's what they believe is best. I'm not even saying I necessarily agree with them. But I do disagree with the idea that somehow they owe is a roadmap prior to when they're ready to release it, whether other companies do that or not. We're never going to agree on this, so I'm just going to let it drop.I don;t think they owe us anything. I just think that, after layoffs, having players worry about the future is not the best idea. They should have put more than just a token effort in trying to reassure everyone that everything is fine. They didn't. So, as i see it, either they don't realize that need (which would mean they are completely out of touch with the community), or things are
not
fine, and they just don't want us to know it.Neither option is good for the future of this game.

I think their will always be people worrying and they did make a statement about what's to come ( the road map).

Yes, but that's an outdated statement in my point of view. They did say that they would prioritize horizontal progression over vertical. However that was before the last raid came out. I know that Anet might think, that a lot of players are just salty, but honestly it's not the case. I think a lot of players are seriously concerned about what's next, because as much as one might enjoy this game. You simply can't be asked to stay around and wait for the next patch. Like there needs to be something aspiring to do which keeps you wanting to log on into the game to improve, or get that item which is difficult to get etc....

For a starter, I think Anet should beta test their major patch. I know it's got it's pros and cons but in Anet case, I'm pretty sure that the pros will outnumbers the cons. And you still can lock certain content. Not 100% has to be available in beta test of patches.

I would argue that their is more communication then before the layoffs. So the third option is that this thread is out of thouch with the general community and is overestimating the doubt of the community.

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yann.1946

yann.1946

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@yann.1946 said:I think their will always be people worrying and they did make a statement about what's to come ( the road map).

Everything on that road map of upcoming features is either already released (final episode of Season 4, latest raid wing) or are things they are developing but not in a final state yet (everything else).

You are saying that the next thing to expect from them is legendary sigils/runes, build templates and cooking to 500?

I'm saying that their is enough on that list to conclude that the layoffs won't cause the game in maintenance mode.

So that they are not a good reason to worry anymore. Ofcourse you can worry but the general trends suggest that the game is going as well as we expect so the doubt atm is in a sense should be nothing more then the general doubt that has been in the air since the game released.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:There are many factors. Anet has stated they announced it too early. That the wait between the announcement and the release was too long. Is it true? They seem to think so. I agree. They couldn't sustain the hype for long enough and drew it out. Some people lost interest in the wait.Why then the same didn't happen with PoF even though we knew that expac was being worked on for far longer? And doesn't that suggest that it was
not
the info about them working on the expac that was the issue in HoT case (or at least not about the info getting out too early)?

Look, we've discussed this to death.Yes, and i still see holes in the reasoning you brought up. The one menioned above being among the most glaring ones.

Your point of view is that they should tell us what they're doing in the future, because they're a company and thy owe it to us.No. I am saying that, especially now, it should be in their own interest to not make people worrying about whether this game has a future.

Other companies do it. My opinion is that they have policy based on their belief and understanding. It's what they believe is best. I'm not even saying I necessarily agree with them. But I do disagree with the idea that somehow they owe is a roadmap prior to when they're ready to release it, whether other companies do that or not. We're never going to agree on this, so I'm just going to let it drop.I don;t think they owe us anything. I just think that, after layoffs, having players worry about the future is not the best idea. They should have put more than just a token effort in trying to reassure everyone that everything is fine. They didn't. So, as i see it, either they don't realize that need (which would mean they are completely out of touch with the community), or things are
not
fine, and they just don't want us to know it.Neither option is good for the future of this game.

You don't see holes in my reasoning, you're drawing different conclusions than I am. I assure you I'm perfectly capable of reasoning stuff out. No single argument of yours has changed my mind it's not going to. That's why I'm stopping. We can dance around this all day. You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong. Neither of us will ever know who is wrong and that's okay.

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