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Caithe's Morals vs Honor


Kashin.7192

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Okay, so inherently I did not have a problem with Caithe. Sylvari was my first choice for character and I loved learning about them. The only race [option] that didn't exist in GW1 to have a backstory we already new. I started with the Green Knight PS. Caithe seemed cool. Not as air headed as some Sylvari could seem to be. Star Crossed with Faolain. It was cool... until A Good Work Spoiled.

That would be the part where YOU GIVE YOUR WORD that the Nightmare Courtians who show up will be let go and live if they give you the information. They give you the information and Caithe sneaks up behind them and murders them! She then goes on to convince you this is a good thing and your character has to be okay with it.

Now it isn't so much the murder. I mean story wise, etc, I understand why it was done. If it had been an option of:-Give your word and they live-Give your word but actually lie-Force the information

Etc or something like that. It wouldn't have been such a problem for me. But the fact that Caithe did this, there was not option to not be okay with the fact you gave your word and Caithe destroyed it, and she was kept as a Mentor/Person to look up to, was my problem. I mean at that point I would have 'divorced' myself from Caithe. Either gotten someone else from Destiny's Edge or even the Luminary from my Cycle to take over. But Caithe, knowing she is without Honor, I am not okay with that. I will concede she may have redeemed herself with DE and her friends. Or something like that later on that was more Honorable or whatever. But the fact she did this on my Word and Honor remains.

What do you guys think?

(Yes. It is a game, etc. It didn't give me real life problems, etc. But I did switch over to Asura after that to finish the Main story line. Later on I did go back and make a Sylvari that I completed with.)

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Personally, I thought it was a nice touch. Caithe isn't a good-to-the-core character. She has her hang-ups, her shortcomings, her blind spots, and there are a number of occasions when those bring her into conflict with the PC. I find that to be a neat dynamic, at least for most of the story.

But as for the specific issue... I don't remember that happening in the Green Knight storyline, and a quick skim of the wiki doesn't bring anything up either. I do remember it happening in Discovering Darkness, in the White Stag storyline. The PC does object there, try to talk her down, and afterwards gently rebukes her. ("A noble goal, so long as you don't let hatred consume you.") That seemed like a satisfactory measure to me- the sylvari PC is still very young and impressionable, still looking to Caithe in part to define what is right and wrong, and in the previous story step had a courtier take advantage of their innocence and betray them, which clearly shook them and left them disoriented. When I went through that scene, it felt like my character simply didn't know enough to have grounds to object more forcefully.

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@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Personally, I thought it was a nice touch. Caithe isn't a good-to-the-core character. She has her hang-ups, her shortcomings, her blind spots, and there are a number of occasions when those bring her into conflict with the PC. I find that to be a neat dynamic, at least for most of the story.

But as for the specific issue... I don't remember that happening in the Green Knight storyline, and a quick skim of the wiki doesn't bring anything up either. I do remember it happening in Discovering Darkness, in the White Stag storyline. The PC does object there, try to talk her down, and afterwards gently rebukes her. ("A noble goal, so long as you don't let hatred consume you.") That seemed like a satisfactory measure to me- the sylvari PC is still very young and impressionable, still looking to Caithe in part to define what is right and wrong, and in the previous story step had a courtier take advantage of their innocence and betray them, which clearly shook them and left them disoriented. When I went through that scene, it felt like my character simply didn't know enough to have grounds to object more forcefully.

Thanks! It seems I may have had the quest lines mixed up.

I suppose that is true, the Character is a bit wracked still after the previous scenario. However Caithe's actions in that scenario are the actions I would expect from someone of the Nightmare Court. They give you a scenario where you can rise above such actions. To be honorable and noble. She destroys that. Not only that but, (but now that you reminded me of the actual quest), Gavin, a member of the Nightmare Court, is a very Honorable person. Admittedly you do fight him over the White Stag, but his actions through out the quest were Honorable. He had a different view, surely, or he wouldn't be with the Nightmare Court. By the end of the Quest I was more comfortable with him then with Caithe. With him, not the Nightmare Court.

I suppose that may have been the purpose of the quest. To show neither side is perfect/good/bad, etc. That Its not straight forward, black/white.

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:the two LS2 chapters dedicated to her, make Caithe by far the best immersion history created in gw2.if u really dislike her, a bit of spoil to you: in Heart of Thorns the commander give her what she deserves.

She herself I don't have an issue with. I understand the character that does what is necessary. It was that she committed such actions that tarnished the Word and Honor of the Character without an option to call out on it. Now I understand that won't be a problem for most players. Probably mostly RP based ones would, and even then for those that care about such things.

If I get the chance to play through LS2 myself, then I will be interested in seeing how she behaves and if she has changed at all.

Also random aside, did Faolain ever resolve or is she still out in the world somewhere?

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@Kashin.7192 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:the two LS2 chapters dedicated to her, make Caithe by far the best immersion history created in gw2.
if u really dislike her
, a bit of spoil to you: in
Heart of Thorns
the commander give her what she deserves.

She herself I don't have an issue with. I understand the character that does what is necessary. It was that she committed such actions that tarnished the Word and Honor of the Character without an option to call out on it. Now I understand that won't be a problem for most players. Probably mostly RP based ones would, and even then for those that care about such things.

If I get the chance to play through LS2 myself, then I will be interested in seeing how she behaves and if she has changed at all.

Also random aside, did Faolain ever resolve or is she still out in the world somewhere?

Do you really want an answer to that?

I understand what you are saying and you should get used to it. The Commander is often very passive, without agency.

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@Psientist.6437 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:the two LS2 chapters dedicated to her, make Caithe by far the best immersion history created in gw2.
if u really dislike her
, a bit of spoil to you: in
Heart of Thorns
the commander give her what she deserves.

She herself I don't have an issue with. I understand the character that does what is necessary. It was that she committed such actions that tarnished the Word and Honor of the Character without an option to call out on it. Now I understand that won't be a problem for most players. Probably mostly RP based ones would, and even then for those that care about such things.

If I get the chance to play through LS2 myself, then I will be interested in seeing how she behaves and if she has changed at all.

Also random aside, did Faolain ever resolve or is she still out in the world somewhere?

Do you really want an answer to that?

I understand what you are saying and you should get used to it. The Commander is often very passive, without agency.

I suppose not. It will be good to try and find that info out. I have completed Main Story, HoT, and am currently working on PoF. However I have not done any of the Living World seasons at all, sadly. I hope to be able to do so at some point, cause I think you gembuy them to play through if I recall correctly.

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@Kashin.7192 said:Okay, so inherently I did not have a problem with Caithe. Sylvari was my first choice for character and I loved learning about them. The only race [option] that didn't exist in GW1 to have a backstory we already new. I started with the Green Knight PS. Caithe seemed cool. Not as air headed as some Sylvari could seem to be. Star Crossed with Faolain. It was cool... until A Good Work Spoiled.

That would be the part where YOU GIVE YOUR WORD that the Nightmare Courtians who show up will be let go and live if they give you the information. They give you the information and Caithe sneaks up behind them and murders them! She then goes on to convince you this is a good thing and your character has to be okay with it.

Now it isn't so much the murder. I mean story wise, etc, I understand why it was done. If it had been an option of:-Give your word and they live-Give your word but actually lie-Force the information

Etc or something like that. It wouldn't have been such a problem for me. But the fact that Caithe did this, there was not option to not be okay with the fact you gave your word and Caithe destroyed it, and she was kept as a Mentor/Person to look up to, was my problem. I mean at that point I would have 'divorced' myself from Caithe. Either gotten someone else from Destiny's Edge or even the Luminary from my Cycle to take over. But Caithe, knowing she is without Honor, I am not okay with that. I will concede she may have redeemed herself with DE and her friends. Or something like that later on that was more Honorable or whatever. But the fact she did this on my Word and Honor remains.

What do you guys think?I think you clearly don't have to the stomach to make the tough calls and be commander of the Pact.My asura engineer agrees.

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I guess it was the first "Life's full of mulch" lesson the fresh green sylvari PC gets. And quite a bitter one (got that on my very first GW2 character years ago; it was frustrating as hell - especially because of Gavin being an honor freak). Well, it had to start somewhere...Several more (8 out of 9 currently, is that a diagnose yet?) sylvari toons later I see this as a proof that the Nightmares were mistaken with the "shackles of Ventari's tablet". (Or that they should have come up with a better excuse.)

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I agree. I played other races before Sylvari and was quite okay with Caithe for quite some time. She seemed to be one of the more reasonable members of DE and maybe the only one who saw the greater picture first. Then, when I started the Sylvari story and played that very chapter, I also remember that was the first of many times my opinion of her seriously worsened.

 

And I don't even care that much that she stole the egg in LS2 / HoT, except that we were forced to waste precious time for that nonsense.

 

Caithe is one of the more multi-layered characters, yes. That does not mean we have to like her. I don't want her dead, but I would like to not have her nearby anymore, if possible.

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I mean think of the implications this story line could have on in game effect. Character is Commander of the Pact. If it came out that two hostages were killed under your watch and protection and you did nothing about it could be the perfect fuel someone could have to start a campaign to undermine your integrity.

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@"Kashin.7192" said:I mean think of the implications this story line could have on in game effect. Character is Commander of the Pact. If it came out that two hostages were killed under your watch and protection and you did nothing about it could be the perfect fuel someone could have to start a campaign to undermine your integrity.

And then it comes out that this happened when the Sylvari Commander was what, less then a month old, a few months old?

Oh, or that the prisoners in question were Nightmare Court, who literally everybody hates and has very little issue killing on sight? Do remember the immediate reaction to finding a nightmare court prisoner in Heart of Thorns had, IIRC, Canach asking the commander right then "Shall I kill this one?"

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (especially a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:Do remember the immediate reaction to finding a nightmare court prisoner in Heart of Thorns had, IIRC, Canach asking the commander right then "Shall I kill this one?"

The difference there is that Canach asks, the commander says "No," and Canach doesn't kill anyone.

Caithe's behavior in LWS2/HoT, both present time and flashback, made me angry too, but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with. I wouldn't have let her anywhere near anything important until after he was dead, though.

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@Tarlonniel.6534 said:but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with.

Of course, that's a factor and it does explain some of her views and actions. But she did not just learn about all that recently. Before the start of the PS she has already had about 20 years of time to deal with that shock and to try and form emergency plans with the Pale Tree. Which she did, partly, at least as far as Zhaitan was concerned. For the other part - not so much, apparently.

 

On the other hand, she let all those pact sylvari just fly to the jungle without ANY warning. They did not have those 20 years she had. I would have thought that intelligent beings like Caithe and the Tree could have come up with SOME sort of emergency plan within 20 years. But Caithe being Caithe, maybe she never eben talked to her mother about all that.

 

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (
especially
a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (
especially
a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

And in HoT when the commander suddenly and drastically flip flops between reactions. Start of the story: "We have much bigger issues, let's save the Pact soldiers, regroup, heal and rearm." then suddenly "wait, you saw Caithe? CAITHE GET BACK HERE." then "Oh Caithe disappeared? It's okay, she'll show up again sometime." and finally "Braham, if she bleeping breathes, turn her into pulp!"

@Tarlonniel.6534 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:Do remember the immediate reaction to finding a nightmare court prisoner in Heart of Thorns had, IIRC, Canach asking the commander right then "Shall I kill this one?"

The difference there is that Canach asks, the commander says "No," and Canach
doesn't kill anyone
.

Caithe's behavior in LWS2/HoT, both present time and flashback, made me angry too, but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with. I wouldn't have let her anywhere near anything important until after he was dead, though.

The difference is as well, Canach is dealing with an experienced Commander and has to be on his best behavior. Caithe's example she is not only more experienced, in a position of more authority, and has much deeper, extensive knowledge about how messed up the nightmare court is and that letting those couple courtiers go is just condemning a dreamer down the road to be tortured and emotionally, mentally, and/or physically brutalized to be converted to Nightmare by said courtier.

@Fenella.2634 said:

@Tarlonniel.6534 said:but I'm much more forgiving of the present time stuff because of the whole Wyld Hunt/Mordremoth double whammy she was dealing with.

Of course, that's a factor and it does explain some of her views and actions. But she did not just learn about all that recently. Before the start of the PS she has already had about 20 years of time to deal with that shock and to try and form emergency plans with the Pale Tree. Which she did, partly, at least as far as Zhaitan was concerned. For the other part - not so much, apparently.

 

On the other hand, she let all those pact sylvari just fly to the jungle without ANY warning. They did not have those 20 years she had. I would have thought that intelligent beings like Caithe and the Tree could have come up with SOME sort of emergency plan within 20 years. But Caithe being Caithe, maybe she never eben talked to her mother about all that.

 

On the other hand, Caithe didn't cause the Pact to be split apart by distrust and infighting and possibly ruin all future efforts.

Seriously, imagine if that news had become public (Even just to Sylvari) shortly before the fleet launched? It'd ruin the Sylvari's public image (already tarnished in some areas by Scarlet and Nightmare court), possibly cause the pact + major race army reinforcements to split apart or back out.

Or imagine if suddenly before the fleet launched you saw all the Sylvari pull out, or suddenly start taking extra steps to prepare. While the Sylvari in the pact forces got hit hard by distrust and suspicions, If they had suddenly backed out of the force entirely, or had been seen doing extra tasks/actions then other groups, the Entire Sylvari race could've been hit with accusations of always knowing they were spawns of Mordremoth, and possibly leading the Pact and other races into a trap on purpose to wipe out/enslave them all in their "Fathers" name.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:eh, wait until Living World Season 2 until you see Caithe at her worst.

That said, it is not about 'neither side good/bad' it is 'one side is different shades of grey (I'd guess 255 shades tbh) the other side very black'

I disagree. Caithe shown during Season 2 and HoT is actually very little different than how she acts during Edge of Destiny. Even in the sylvari PS in all honesty. Caithe always has this "act first, explain later" mentality that makes her actions in S2 ultimately far from ordinary. It isn't so much Caithe's actions, but everyone's response to her actions, which is horrible writing. At least, the Commander's (
especially
a sylvari commander's reaction); Rytlock's reactions in HoT as well. It makes sense that Dragon's Watch (sans the Commander, Rytlock, and arguably Canach) would distrust Caithe when she runs off with the egg when the areas are mordrem infested, but it made no sense for the Commander to act like they did.

Caithe taking the literal fate of the world and running away from caves infested with Mordrem is hardly a bad thing, let alone "at her worst". It was the writing forcing a poor reception of Caithe's action that was the worst. Just like with Braham in S3. His reaction to the PC felt unnaturally forced, especially since it got blamed on a humanistic grief over Eir that he had come to terms with at the end of HoT.

and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

Shocking news, an inexperienced, young Caithe did a rash and stupid move that she pretty much literally regretted her entire life.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:On the other hand, Caithe didn't cause the Pact to be split apart by distrust and infighting and possibly ruin all future efforts.

Seriously, imagine if that news had become public (Even just to Sylvari) shortly before the fleet launched? It'd ruin the Sylvari's public image (already tarnished in some areas by Scarlet and Nightmare court), possibly cause the pact + major race army reinforcements to split apart or back out.

Or imagine if suddenly before the fleet launched you saw all the Sylvari pull out, or suddenly start taking extra steps to prepare. While the Sylvari in the pact forces got hit hard by distrust and suspicions, If they had suddenly backed out of the force entirely, or had been seen doing extra tasks/actions then other groups, the Entire Sylvari race could've been hit with accusations of always knowing they were spawns of Mordremoth, and possibly leading the Pact and other races into a trap on purpose to wipe out/enslave them all in their "Fathers" name.

Yet again, she had about 20 years of time to prepare. Maybe within all that time she could have come up with a way to do that more discretely? No reason to suddenly go public with everything right before the attack started, this could have been handled more intelligently, given the time. The Tree had found a good solution by her own, by having the Dream a a kind of shield against Mordremoth. Maybe Tree and Caithe together could have found a better solution than not doing anything at all.

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@"Fenella.2634" said:

Yet again, she had about 20 years of time to prepare. Maybe within all that time she could have come up with a way to do that more discretely? No reason to suddenly go public with everything right before the attack started, this could have been handled more intelligently, given the time. The Tree had found a good solution by her own, by having the Dream a a kind of shield against Mordremoth. Maybe Tree and Caithe together could have found a better solution than not doing anything at all.

Or maybe not, otherwise they would have done it. They probably spent those years trying to come up with something better but with no success.

All in all, Caithe does what she believes needs to be done. Same as the others. And sometimes she's wrong. Same as the others. And sometimes it's just a bit too neutral/neutral.

Is there actually any important NPC that would say "Hey, I believe this is necessary, but I won't do it because honor"?

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

Shocking news, an inexperienced, young Caithe did a rash and stupid move that she pretty much literally regretted her entire life.

Regret as much as you want, she murdered her SISTER because she was too much of a coward to tell Faolain to stop. There is nothing she ever did to redeem that horrible deed.

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