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Most sought after role for third e-spec?


Arheundel.6451

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@lLobo.7960 said:I can agree with most of what you said. I still don't think overloads are melee, but yea, very short range, and I'd agree with making them (fire/earth/water) larger and with better group effects (fire already pulses might, air should pulse the electric discharge bonus to 5 allies and hit 5 enemies, etc), but I don't think they are melee per se... but whatever.

Honestly, this feels a bit academic. Sure, you might not be within sword's length of your enemy while overloading, but you're not far from it. While you're not forced to do so with tempest, everything about tempest is calling on you to dive into the middle of the action - it's just a question of whether you stay there (dagger/x) or take a more 'hit and run' approach returning to a standoff position after overloading (scepter/X or staff).

For weaver, similarly, most of the skills (apart from scepter and staff dual skills) and traits are designed around getting into melee and not dying.

I think it's reasonable to say that both are aimed towards close combat.

Now, I don't think this is entirely ArenaNet's fault. Sword - or greatsword - was one of the common requests from the elementalist community, and most people asking for it were thinking of a melee weapon. But after two close combat oriented elite specs, I think it's time for one that's a little more standoffish.

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@steki.1478 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

Both current elites have those.

Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

Both current elites have those.

Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

That's because you're only counting meta builds focused on dps. D/f and sw/f have huge amount of CC, the bad part on weaver is that your CC comes with huge dps loss, but that's not the main comment wanted anyway. Current tempest build in wvw has huge amount of CC.

Dagger on ele already has among best melee cleave by default and it easily gets tripled with air overload, storm glyph, warhorn skills.

Idk why people confuse the fact that certain build lacks some features and the fact that the same build isnt meta. People still think that ele's purpose in wvw is just dps or just heal when it's the class with among highest aoe CC output.

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@steki.1478 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

That's because you're only counting meta builds focused on dps. D/f and sw/f have huge amount of CC, the bad part on weaver is that your CC comes with huge dps loss, but that's not the main comment wanted anyway. Current tempest build in wvw has huge amount of CC.

Meta ele builds bring unimpressive dps and poor cc (while being horribly squishy and reliant on boons, etc.). Non-meta builds can bring unimpressive cc but ultimately have poorer dps, which makes it not worth taking.

Also I said things can change depending on context - cc on staff works in wvw/pvp, but it doesn’t work on stationary/dumb/unpredictable pve bosses with breakbars now does it?

Dagger on ele already has among best melee cleave by default and it easily gets tripled with air overload, storm glyph, warhorn skills.

Dagger is from core ele. It’s been given the blessing and curse of being assigned as ‘the bruiser’ weapon and will almost always look good in pvp/wvw, but will always be underwhelming in pve that isn’t OW.

Overload Air is as effective as a 360 lightning whip but is still limited by a 3 target cap (which is decided by rng?). Storm glyph is from core but is a horrible skill to use for cleave. A significant % of dmg from warhorn (and dps tempest) sits behind Lightning Orb, a 100% single target skill that requires range and big hitboxes to be effective.

Idk why people confuse the fact that certain build lacks some features and the fact that the same build isnt meta. People still think that ele's purpose in wvw is just dps or just heal when it's the class with among highest aoe CC output.

Well, wasn’t discussing wvw so :confused:. Even then, this is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc at the same time. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

Or are you implying core is already good enough?

Core has those.

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

That's because you're only counting meta builds focused on dps. D/f and sw/f have huge amount of CC, the bad part on weaver is that your CC comes with huge dps loss, but that's not the main comment wanted anyway. Current tempest build in wvw has huge amount of CC.

Meta ele builds bring unimpressive dps and poor cc (while being horribly squishy and reliant on boons, etc.). Non-meta builds can bring unimpressive cc but ultimately have poorer dps, which makes it not worth taking.

Also I said things can change depending on context - cc on staff works in wvw/pvp, but it doesn’t work on stationary/dumb/unpredictable pve bosses with breakbars now does it?

Dagger on ele already has among best melee cleave by default and it easily gets tripled with air overload, storm glyph, warhorn skills.

Dagger is from core ele. It’s been given the blessing and curse of being assigned as ‘the bruiser’ weapon and will almost always look good in pvp/wvw, but will always be underwhelming in pve that isn’t OW.

Overload Air is as effective as a 360 lightning whip but is still limited by a 3 target cap (which is decided by rng?). Storm glyph is from core but is a horrible skill to use for cleave. A significant % of dmg from warhorn (and dps tempest) sits behind Lightning Orb, a 100% single target skill that requires range and big hitboxes to be effective.

Idk why people confuse the fact that certain build lacks some features and the fact that the same build isnt meta. People still think that ele's purpose in wvw is just dps or just heal when it's the class with among highest aoe CC output.

Well, wasn’t discussing wvw so :confused:. Even then, this is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc
at the same time
. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

Or are you implying core is already good enough?

Core
has those.

You're just repeating what I said was wrong: if it's not meta it doesn't exist and if it's not pve it doesnt exist.

Elite spec kit doesn't need to be OP to be considered as a part of the spec. All things you mentioned are easily fixed with buffing numbers which means that class (or elite spec) already has those features. There's a reason why people were stacking tempests on add heavy encounters.

Stop confusing top tier effectiveness with existence.

If you think that non meta builds have unimpressive CC then you have no idea what ele is capable of doing. Yes it comes with low dps, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Ele just isnt designed to have (many) skills with multiple purposes.

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@steki.1478 said:You're just repeating what I said was wrong: if it's not meta it doesn't exist and if it's not pve it doesnt exist.

Elite spec kit doesn't need to be OP to be considered as a part of the spec. All things you mentioned are easily fixed with buffing numbers which means that class (or elite spec) already has those features. There's a reason why people were stacking tempests on add heavy encounters.

Stop confusing top tier effectiveness with existence.

If you think that non meta builds have unimpressive CC then you have no idea what ele is capable of doing. Yes it comes with low dps, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Ele just isnt designed to have (many) skills with multiple purposes.

This was the beginning of this/our discussion/argument:

@Lonami.2987 said:I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

@steki.1478 said:Both current elites have those.

The useful parts of my responses (everything else was me being sidetracked by irrelevant matters):

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

This is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc at the same time. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

And to add some more:

Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word ‘better’, but instead ‘defined’. All of ele’s current melee builds are based around practically dancing around and kiting a singular opponent, or casting AoE from range, rather than overpowering a group through dominating strength. What I interpreted from Lonami’s post was that they wanted ele to have an espec option that is more akin to scrapper/reaper in melee, cleave & cc, which the current especs do not bring simultaneously (um... stop discussing just cc or just cleave), or are not (as) effective in doing so.

I’ve already mentioned somewhere that tempest is stuck in a supposed melee role because somebody still believes that overloads absolutely have to be centered on the ele. Warhorn has 600+ range. Shouts are more supportive than offensive. A single grandmaster trait that allows overloads to be casted at range (dunno, 900 range?) would completely obliterate the concept that ‘tempest is a melee spec’. It’s not really, it was sold as a support spec (where every relevant support skill outside of overloads has a whopping 600 range anyway).

I also do hope that you haven’t gotten the statement that ‘tempests are taken on add heavy fights’ from when it was much stronger because after nerfs, current overloads are practically glorified extra-range pbAoE autoattacks mostly useful for its lingering, post-cast effects. Warhorn only hits things in front of your face, shouts are weak, and it’d probably be noticeably better taking better recognised cleave specs such as the generic ‘DH, holo and reaper’ who have actual high dmg, espec-specific skills dedicated to cleaving things down quickly.

Anet (maybe accidentally) sold sword on weaver as a ‘single target, high dps’ weapon on the April 23 patch. It kinda does feel like a dueling/one-on-one spec rather than a ‘I’ll come in and bash you all down’ spec with it’s stabby-poke, cone-of-fire skills. If d/x weaver (specifically through its extra #3 skills) fulfils some viable role that resembles a firm, intimidating cleaving bruiser, then maybe I’d actually stand down.

A tl;dr of my replies:The existence of the two current especs does not mean that another different melee option (specifically in ALL of melee, cleave and cc) should be so easily rejected.

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@steki.1478 said:You're just repeating what I said was wrong: if it's not meta it doesn't exist and if it's not pve it doesnt exist.

Elite spec kit doesn't need to be OP to be considered as a part of the spec. All things you mentioned are easily fixed with buffing numbers which means that class (or elite spec) already has those features. There's a reason why people were stacking tempests on add heavy encounters.

Stop confusing top tier effectiveness with existence.

If you think that non meta builds have unimpressive CC then you have no idea what ele is capable of doing. Yes it comes with low dps, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Ele just isnt designed to have (many) skills with multiple purposes.

This was the beginning of this/our discussion/argument:

@Lonami.2987 said:I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

@steki.1478 said:Both current elites have those.

The useful parts of my responses (everything else was me being sidetracked by irrelevant matters):

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

This is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc
at the same time
. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

And to add some more:

Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word ‘better’, but instead ‘defined’. All of ele’s current melee builds are based around practically dancing around and kiting a singular opponent, or casting AoE from range, rather than overpowering a group through dominating strength. What I interpreted from Lonami’s post was that they wanted ele to have an espec option that is more akin to scrapper/reaper in melee, cleave & cc, which the current especs do not bring
simultaneously
(um... stop discussing just cc or just cleave), or are not (as) effective in doing so.

I’ve already mentioned somewhere that tempest is stuck in a supposed melee role because somebody still believes that overloads absolutely have to be centered on the ele. Warhorn has 600+ range. Shouts are more supportive than offensive. A single grandmaster trait that allows overloads to be casted at range (dunno, 900 range?) would completely obliterate the concept that ‘tempest is a melee spec’. It’s not really, it was sold as a support spec (where every relevant support skill outside of overloads has a whopping 600 range anyway).

I also do hope that you haven’t gotten the statement that ‘tempests are taken on add heavy fights’ from when it was much stronger because after nerfs, current overloads are practically glorified extra-range pbAoE autoattacks mostly useful for its lingering, post-cast effects. Warhorn only hits things in front of your face, shouts are weak, and it’d probably be noticeably better taking better recognised cleave specs such as the generic ‘DH, holo and reaper’ who have actual high dmg, espec-specific skills dedicated to cleaving things down quickly.

Anet (maybe accidentally) sold sword on weaver as a ‘single target, high dps’ weapon on the April 23 patch. It kinda does feel like a dueling/one-on-one spec rather than a ‘I’ll come in and bash you all down’ spec with it’s stabby-poke, cone-of-fire skills. If d/x weaver (specifically through its extra #3 skills) fulfils some viable role that resembles a firm, intimidating cleaving bruiser, then maybe I’d actually stand down.

A tl;dr of my replies:
The existence of the two current especs does not mean that another different melee option (specifically in ALL of melee, cleave and cc) should be so easily rejected.

But the lack of other types of gameplay certainly means that melee option should be rejected because first 2 specs already focus on that.

The reason why those 2 "failed" is because core class very melee unfriendly and those specs didnt address lacking features. They just improved ones that ele already has while having a certain tradeoff which nullifies those improvements outside of elite specs' niche. So basically, ele's elite specs ended up being pretty balanced compared to core class, but lackluster compared to other elite specs which are straight upgrades to core class.

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@"steki.1478" said:But the lack of other types of gameplay certainly means that melee option should be rejected because first 2 specs already focus on that.

Not personally trying to devalue the option, but someone could deny ‘the lack of other types’ by twisting the perspective that staff is 1200+ range and scepter is single target and bursty. It looks the same as tempest with whatever cleave it has and weaver with melee. Both sides are trying merge what ele might already have to make something supposedly ‘new’ and what ele lacks (not one or the other, but the combination).

It doesn’t help how weaver practically updated all of ele’s weapons with the new #3’s, meaning that all the core weapons (i.e. that 1200+ range staff and single target bursty scepter) are also part of the espec, so it’s not entirely correct to say that weaver is completely melee oriented (through some of its stances say otherwise, heh).

The reason why those 2 "failed" is because core class very melee unfriendly and those specs didnt address lacking features. They just improved ones that ele already has while having a certain tradeoff which nullifies those improvements outside of elite specs' niche. So basically, ele's elite specs ended up being pretty balanced compared to core class, but lackluster compared to other elite specs which are straight upgrades to core class.

What features does ele actually lack? And exactly how specific are we going to make these features?

Similar to engi, I believe that ele’s natural versatility (don’t forget conjures ugh) is somewhat affecting to its espec options. Both professions got both a support/tankier (HoT) and a melee option (PoF) that they did not originally have, and from there it’s kind of a ‘what now?’ situation.

I think the appeal now lies in taking away from core rather than giving - I’m actually eyeing ‘no support’ and ‘limited sustain’ more than the specifics of the weapon (ranged/melee) since core technically ‘has it all’ (bar pure melee).

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I honestly don't see weaver and tempest being melee focused or not...Tempest is AoE focused, both for offense and support. And also focused on staying longer on attunements to achieve better results (overloading).Weaver is selfish with focus on quick attunement swaps (short self bonus for swaping attunements).Traits on weaver don't give it bonus for being melee, they give bonus for using dual skills and swapping attunements. Some of those do help being in melee (barrier) or staying in melee (superspeed, swiftness) but they also help staying in range and kiting...

The reason why ele is not good at range is mostly because staff and scepter have been nerfed. Not because of the elite specs "focus".Staff is still a great choice for WvW and PvE zergs... Scepter tempest is still a viable dps (with a side of boons) in pve...

@"Noodle Ant.1605" said:What features does ele actually lack? And exactly how specific are we going to make these features?I think the appeal now lies in taking away from core rather than giving - I’m actually eyeing ‘no support’ and ‘limited sustain’ more than the specifics of the weapon (ranged/melee) since core technically ‘has it all’ (bar pure melee).

We have core ele with its standard attunements, we have tempest with longer attunements, we have weaver with shorter and dual attunements.Next one could be an ele with no attunements (in a way) and weapon swap. And if you remove all the 40 independ attunement skills replacing them with 5 basic skills, then any changes to those skills will not impact core ele or previous specs...Something like this:

The disciple is an elementalist that focus more on martial prowess than raw magic channeling.Focusing on martial expertise and physical prowess, the disciple can swap weapons in combat but looses the ability to have different and unique skills in each attunment and magical attacks.Instead, the disciple uses the elemental magic of attunements to boost its attacks and defenses and uses its weapons in martial combat instead of conduits to magic. To compensate the lack of long range magic attacks, the disciple uses a longbow to deliver his attacks from distance and physical skills to be mobile and effective in combat.

New weapon: longbowNew utility skills: physical skillsMartial focus elementalist with long range dps as longbow, weapon swap instead of individual attunement skills, mobility, new conditions (torment and poison), and even stealth with combos. Instead of one weapon with 20 new skills, gains one weapon with 5 new skills and new skills for each old weapon (staff 5, scepter 3, dagger 5, focus 2). Staff and dagger become melee versions, scepter becomes akin to mace and focus akin to shield.

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