Stacking players breaks immersion

[crepuscular.9047]

the dev never designed player stacking in mind, the game was built on the idea of being self sufficient

stack is just something that players figured out how to steam roll mobs from the old dungeon days, and basically stuck with the player community ever since; the dev have made mechanics where stacking does not make sense already

[Gop.8713]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:But yes, the receipt for instantly killing off WvW for good:

• Collision Detection
• Remove target limit on all aoe
• Enable friendly fire

There wouldn't be enough popcorn in the whole world.What the kitten are you talking about, WvWers have been requesting this for years. Everyone loves it. And if I know WvWers, they would

never

suggest any ideas on the forums that could possibly kill off WvW.

I would be tempted to pay good money for friendly fire week . . .

[Tsakhi.8124]

Part of what I'm seeing is that individuality is not being valued paired with people that insist this is a MMORPG. They're both , in my opinion, viable arguments. However, I wouldn't ever want to see the ability to shove people around. That's bullying tactics and can easily be exploited. Stacking is not necessary as much as it's preferred. That said, I can sympathize with not really wanting to do what ever is meta, when all you want to do is escape. To me, stacking can be replaced by strategic placing (as mentioned above). There's kind of a disconnect between desired and necessity. Sorry if this is kind of muddled or doesn't make sense, my brain doesn't real. XD

Edit: See, Tsakhi, this is why we can't have nice things... =Gibbs smacks self=

[Cyninja.2954]

@Hannelore.8153 said:To be fair, most skills have a decent range that you don't actually have to stack on top of each other, this is just an old misconception. You can spread out a bit and still receive the benefits, and it actually benefits your party since it reduces the impact of enemy AoE's, etc.

My guild always moves around constantly in circles around opponents (its a habit from older games), and it works just fine. It help keeps the same player from being targeted all the time, spread boons, cleanses and heals out evenly, and makes alot of enemy skills miss entirely.

You are basically increasing the chance of less people getting hit at the same time since people are not stacked on one spot. Useful when players are incapable of dodging or reacting to boss attack patters or cues (which all open world bosses have) or when no dedicated supports are present. It's better than getting hit, but worse than actually reading the boss and reacting to its attacks.

@Hannelore.8153 said:If anything I would say that stacking invites excessive damage to the party, plus making a habit of standing still all of the time whacking the enemy except when its time to dodge makes for boring and bad gameplay long-term, players who become used to this end up unable to handle more unpredictable and "noisy" encounters like some open-world bosses where that playstyle leads to frequent downs.

A.) player AND enemy attacks have a target cap. Stacking results in damage getting split among a lot more players which reduces damage to the squad. This is especially noticable in open world bosses where you can overstack a boss making him near harmless. Most world bosses do not hit more than 10-15 targets per attack with very slow attacks overall which causes groups of bigger size to simply share the hits amongst each other.

B.) stacking shares defensive boons and again reduces damage taken as far as being able to prettty much face tank anything in open world with a group of 5 people.

C.) stacking causes less erratic behavior of world bosses which results for easier dodges of their attacks and manipulating their patters. Obviously only relevant for players who actually react to boss attacks

Best example for A-C is Chak Gerent which can be killed by 5-10 people in 1/2 a phase IF they boonshare, have high dps from specializing and don't have a lot of other people scaling up the event while doing 4k damage. The boss has a very easy readable pattern, his attacks can be dodged or side-stepped and if desired the boss can be manipulated into a corner for best damage uptime.

@Hannelore.8153 said:Which is part of why raiders are kind-of bad in open-world PvE, and I don't even want to think of what they're like in PvP.

Yeah, I'm not even going to ask where you got this notion since you neither provide any facts to support your claim as well as your previous statements being pretty much incorrect. Raid BUILDS are not ideal for some players for open world content since they are very specialized. Suffice to say, this is a pure learn to play issue and given the arcdps data during meta boss events, I can directly tell you which players were runnign what type of build.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Cyninja.2954 said:C.) stacking causes less erratic behavior of world bosses which results for easier dodges of their attacks and manipulating their patters. Obviously only relevant for players who actually react to boss attacks

Best example for A-C is Chak Gerent which can be killed by 5-10 people in 1/2 a phase IF they boonshare, have high dps from specializing and don't have a lot of other people scaling up the event while doing 4k damage.

Even simpler example is VB's wyvern matriarch. If people stack, she does not charge. This makes it easier for everyone to flank her, avoiding nearly all her attacks and being available to CC, regardless of what builds people are running or how over-stacked the event is. If people go down (or even if defeated), it's easier to rez them. The event usually ends in 40-60 seconds if players stack; it can take minutes (or occasionally run out of time) if people do not stack.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

No I don't. Prefer games with it. With it; PvE, if you push in too close and don't know when to pull back you pay for it. In WvW if you are support and get out of position, you pay for it. In either if you are too squishy and shouldn't be that lightly armored you pay the price for it. The only downsides to collision is lag. Now a counter to this is but I wouldn't be able to get a hit in on a PvE target. But with collision someone that runs full in moves outside of the range of support and will need to pull back out or be dropped by the target since they moved outside of the range of their boons and buffs, but again risk versus reward. In more balanced logic range should do less because less risk less damage, tanks are tanks because they should have toughness/vit and should be able to take some hits. Support should live in that mid ground. DPS shouldn't just abel to stand and take it because they just stand in it. To me one of the reasons dungeons failed is because stacking mitigated the code by allowing people to stand still on top of each other and not move. There is no lasting gameplay to that, it's boring and there is no replayability. In WvW if you run full in there you can always run back out. Some of the best game play in prior games was in holding a line, range supporting your lines from behind and you melee looking to turn flanks and get to the backlines. Here we can just zerg stack. Take World Bosses, they would probably be a lot more challenging if everyone didn't just stack in the same spot and spam 1. But I do agree that's not for everyone, which is why we don't have it here. Plus the player-base doesn't have the mindset for it and people don't do well with change and this would be a big one.

It’s an MMO. If you give people model collision, we can just stand in front of an entrance and hallway and now we blocked it off, can’t get through because of model collision. Adding it is a terrible idea for an MMO.

We are making different assumptions here. So this entrance and halllway you refer to is a point where there is combat occurring yes. If so yes that hallway doorway you are referring is a chokepoint and you are being defended by your tanks that are infront of you and you are either waiting to swap with them, attacking over them or supporting them, you see the difference. I am referring to combat collison, not open world. People will not block you from your reward chest or your bank. Trolls in combat are dead trolls. If they want to block you from that world boss than they are in the front soaking that damage up, just don't rez them. Other MMOs have collision today, this isn't a new concept in.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

Yea, all that pushing and shoving would create an annoying experience. Imagine trying to get to a merchant or vendor.

Why did you spawn that merchant in the open WvW zerg fight? Why are you picturing the collision would be out of combat? We are talking while in combat.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Stacking in combat dumbs down the combat and makes it so numbers win. Be that dungeons, fractals, PvE, WvW, PvP. So unless you create some price in stacking it will have an edge. Simple as that. Noted PvP and WvW have higher prices to pay for stacking since the damage comes from other players and might amount to more but in PvE it's typically what negates any coding that's currently there.

[akesuke.7203]

Maybe you just need a break or a little change.Even I may get tired of my SO eventually if I be 24h with him.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

No I don't. Prefer games with it. With it; PvE, if you push in too close and don't know when to pull back you pay for it. In WvW if you are support and get out of position, you pay for it. In either if you are too squishy and shouldn't be that lightly armored you pay the price for it. The only downsides to collision is lag. Now a counter to this is but I wouldn't be able to get a hit in on a PvE target. But with collision someone that runs full in moves outside of the range of support and will need to pull back out or be dropped by the target since they moved outside of the range of their boons and buffs, but again risk versus reward. In more balanced logic range should do less because less risk less damage, tanks are tanks because they should have toughness/vit and should be able to take some hits. Support should live in that mid ground. DPS shouldn't just abel to stand and take it because they just stand in it. To me one of the reasons dungeons failed is because stacking mitigated the code by allowing people to stand still on top of each other and not move. There is no lasting gameplay to that, it's boring and there is no replayability. In WvW if you run full in there you can always run back out. Some of the best game play in prior games was in holding a line, range supporting your lines from behind and you melee looking to turn flanks and get to the backlines. Here we can just zerg stack. Take World Bosses, they would probably be a lot more challenging if everyone didn't just stack in the same spot and spam 1. But I do agree that's not for everyone, which is why we don't have it here. Plus the player-base doesn't have the mindset for it and people don't do well with change and this would be a big one.

It’s an MMO. If you give people model collision, we can just stand in front of an entrance and hallway and now we blocked it off, can’t get through because of model collision. Adding it is a terrible idea for an MMO.

We are making different assumptions here. So this entrance and halllway you refer to is a point where there is combat occurring yes. If so yes that hallway doorway you are referring is a chokepoint and you are being defended by your tanks that are infront of you and you are either waiting to swap with them, attacking over them or supporting them, you see the difference. I am referring to combat collison, not open world. People will not block you from your reward chest or your bank. Trolls in combat are dead trolls. If they want to block you from that world boss than they are in the front soaking that damage up, just don't rez them. Other MMOs have collision today, this isn't a new concept in.

Even in WvW, there’s areas outside of combat that you can block. Get a group to all stand around the bank NPC? Great, now I can’t access the bank and have to switch maps, exit the mists, or use a vendor to access my bank. These situations is why it’s not in the game. Anet’s core philosophy is “we don’t want people to feel hindered by being around other players”. They don’t want you to feel like the fact that some other person is nearby is going to negatively effect your gameplay.

They can’t simply have a toggle in WvW where “this area” has collision and “this area” does not, because areas where one expects to use collision for combat is also an area not used for combat.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:Even in WvW, there’s areas outside of combat that you can block.

If you are blocked it means you are in combat. I am not talking out of combat collision. The engine and game design not being able to handle it is a different story.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

@zallesz.1650 said:

@"gateless gate.8406" said:This is only true for T4 and raids. Any other content, you don't need buffs to complete.

Exactly. Now let's say I have an hour to day I could freely spend on playing GW2, and a longer one maybe on a raid night. I can either do profitable, high end, value-generating content such as raids and T4, where I am forced to stack and play the game in the META mentality, or I could do fun stuff, open world stuff, events, exploration, etc. where I am not required to play "in one single very specific way" and I get to play however I want. One is enjoyable, the other is rewarding. Here lies my problem.Obviously not the end of the world, but kitten I wish I could do both at the same time.

So. . .on the one end, you (seem to) have a hard-core player mentality (with only one hour/day of game time?) where you want to maximize your efficiency for getting rewards (which does require some sacrifices to personal freedom to play how you want, even in single-player games).

And on the other hand, you care about your immersion into the game world?

It doesn't seem like these two philosophies mesh well to me. You pick one (playing casually like your available time would suggest, role-play like you might in a single-player RPG, do some open world events and have fun) vs (grinding hardcore for an hour every-day. For what end? To power up your character for future hard-core grinds? Because apart from those Fracs and Raids, you only need exotics. Pretty much a self-feeding loop of grinding contained only to a small subset of the game).

Also. . .how would you even raid with only an hour or so of play-time? Are raids that short? Also, you'd need to be flexible with your raid-group, which just might not be possible if you can only play for that short of a window of time.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:Even in WvW, there’s areas outside of combat that you can block.

If you are blocked it means you are in combat. I am not talking out of combat collision. The engine and game design not being able to handle it is a different story.

There’s still other ways to abuse it when in combat that goes against Anet’s core ideas. People joining into combat and spending time trying to intentionally body block their teammates or cut of your retreat. Anet doesn’t want your teammates to become a nuisance to you.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Aplethoraof.2643 said:Also. . .how would you even raid with only an hour or so of play-time? Are raids that short? Also, you'd need to be flexible with your raid-group, which just might not be possible if you can only play for that short of a window of time.

You should probably be able to finish VG in that time but it also has a mechanic that requires stacking :p

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:Anet doesn’t want your teammates to become a nuisance to you.

Tell that to whoever made the latest version of Social Awkwardness and keep in mind that this originally could have been combined with Slipper Slope ...

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Aplethoraof.2643 said:Also. . .how would you even raid with only an hour or so of play-time? Are raids that short? Also, you'd need to be flexible with your raid-group, which just might not be possible if you can only play for that short of a window of time.

You should probably be able to finish VG in that time but it also has a mechanic that requires stacking :p

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:Anet doesn’t want your teammates to become a nuisance to you.

Tell that to whoever made the latest version of Social Awkwardness and keep in mind that this originally could have been combined with Slipper Slope ...

SA is an exception because it’s intended to be an extra difficulty/mechanic in instanced content. It’s reason for being added was to be a nuisance, not because it’s a core design decision.