Sovereign.1093 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 bring revs weavers hammer 2 meteors profit byebye scourge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L A T I O N.8923 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 @Cyninja.2954 said:@Stand The Wall.6987 said:@Shaogin.2679 said:Shade skills hit 5 targets if you take the trait Sand Savant. The other 5 targets are being hit from the attack that pulses off of your character when using a shade skill. The max targets you can hit from range therefore is still only 5.not disputed, slightly irrelevant.Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range. A possible solution could be to put all effects on the shade and remove the double effect from the necromancer making scourge more dependant on positioning his shade. Obviously shade skills would then have to be buffed, which would cause a new issue of more ranged pressure.In melee range my melee weapon...you know what should be strongerJust hit 3 tsrgets...Your statement still 10 no matter what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 @Chaba.5410 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@Chaba.5410 said:@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:@Turkeyspit.3965 said:@Chaba.5410 said:@Turkeyspit.3965 said:@Chaba.5410 said:This is why they are preferred over reapers and eles which can't hit 10 targets simultaneously.Yeah...that's the reason they are preferred....Not sure if serious.EDIT: Meme added 'cause for me today is Friday:Yea, you trying to meme that this is about some damage competition rather than about how many targets they do damage to (aka AoE pressure) really discounted what I said. /sarcasmlol, ok, sorry for not being direct. Let's try this approach: Scourges are brought to a zerg for boon strip and corrupt. Full stop.Not because of damage.Not because of the amount of targets they hit.Boon strip. Boon corrupt.k?Daft question, but if scourges are brought because of boon strip/corrupt instead of for damage, wouldn't the number of targets they hit still be extremely relevant to the discussion of whether or not they need nerfs? Yes, the 10 targets are hit by 2 different sources, but assuming boon removal is the point, if they both boon strip from one activation of a skill then the end result is the same as if one source hits 10 people. It just has the added benefit of hitting 5 people twice as hard in melee range. It isn't a daft question. Scourge does have some corrupts, but so do other core necro skills/weapon skills (the actual strip is on a core weapon, focus).Sand Savant is the preferred trait, which increases the number of targets and area size that can be hit. So it isn't like the number of targets is meaningless. You could also build a Reaper that strips and corrupts boons, but then one would have to argue that Scourge does corrupts better because it can hit more people with its Ghastly Breach and punishment skills...I'm just going to leave this here:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devouring_DarknessBoons Converted to Conditions: 3Number of Targets: 5Which is on a core trait line with a core weapon.and not run on Reaper...@Chaba.5410 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, the shades and the necromancer corrupt boons too. It's not their main corrupt though.Uh, shades do not. Punishment skills do.It makes almost no difference balance wise since you only affect 1 skill/trait which is responsible for boon corruption. Yes, I did shorten my reply since the relevance here was low. Yes, it is the skills procced around the necromancer and shade which corrupt boons.Still makes the scepter the main boon corrupt which requires a condi focused traitline which synergizes best with scourge.@Chaba.5410 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:As far as mincing words, it makes a huge difference balance and complexity wise if the shade hits 10 targets, or if the necromancer and shade hit 5 targets each. One can be balanced very easily, the other not as much.That's a good and different way of looking at it. In terms of usage though, the necro being in range together with the shade before hitting the other F skills separates those who know what they are doing with the class versus those who don't.It's the main reason why I disagreed with OPs complaint and why most people in this thread take issue.I'm not saying I agree with necromancer hitting 10 targets (I don't actually) but the approach to balance this is a lot more complicated than simply reducing the targets hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted July 12, 2019 Author Share Posted July 12, 2019 @XenesisII.1540 said:I don't see how this is a conversation. Necros are needed for boon corruption to deal with the boon sharing, no other class can corrupt as much or as fast as they can, they're certainly not the top damaging class, so who cares if they can hit 10 targets(5 from 2 separate sources), even with hitting that much you still need multiple necros to even make it effective against boon zergs. We always have people coming in here complaining about aoes having caps to deal with zergs, you're seriously coming in here complaining the opposite?Sometimes these forums are so upside the head.lol. scourge damage is usually always good, near top. maybe you don't play in groups all that much. then there is the potential to give 7k barrier to 10 ppl. which is huge. some classes and skills could use an aoe buff, but not scourge. would think that's obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunkamania.7561 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 If it doesn't effect PVE it's a non issue. WVW is balanced around PVE and maybe a little PVP but exclusive wvw balance is a non issue to the Anet devs since they don't know that the WVW gamemode is a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 10 targets is a bit much for the number of skills they get with the effect but the real problem is that a condi support class is doing that much power dmg.. If any thing scorge power dmg is way too high for its shades and shades effects that the real problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 @Stand The Wall.6987 said:@"XenesisII.1540" said:I don't see how this is a conversation. Necros are needed for boon corruption to deal with the boon sharing, no other class can corrupt as much or as fast as they can, they're certainly not the top damaging class, so who cares if they can hit 10 targets(5 from 2 separate sources), even with hitting that much you still need multiple necros to even make it effective against boon zergs. We always have people coming in here complaining about aoes having caps to deal with zergs, you're seriously coming in here complaining the opposite?Sometimes these forums are so upside the head.lol. scourge damage is usually always good, near top. maybe you don't play in groups all that much. then there is the potential to give 7k barrier to 10 ppl. which is huge. some classes and skills could use an aoe buff, but not scourge. would think that's obvious.I said "certainly not the top damaging class", I didn't say not in the top five or even top three of damaging classes in wvw, there's a difference.This discussion is still pointless.P.S I said it from the beginning of pof, engineers should have been given the shield mechanic to be part of the new meta, scourges didn't need it. Just another defensive mechanic to deal with the increase in damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 @XenesisII.1540 said:This discussion is still pointless.its only pointless if you tunnel vision on one thing, like you are doing right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:for those of you not aware, shade skills plus the necro hit 10 targets. i'm not sure if its the same for support traits/ skills, but i'm pretty sure it is.editits shade + necroeditbarrier is granted to 10 pplFully agreed.As a necro main, I can tell you that even I feel obnoxiously OP at tagging stuff compared to other classes. One way of changing it would be to remove all effects from the player and make it affect shades only. F1 shade placement must be made instant cast though to balance this. So the Scourge has to choose between range casting with shade or casting shade on self. Ammo count should preferably be increased to 5 maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 @XenesisII.1540 said:I didn't say not in the top five or even top three of damaging classes in wvw, there's a difference. No you didn't say that but there's a reason... Hint: 10 targetsNo better way to nerf their damage and area denial while keeping their boon corrupts intact. Hint: 10 targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 o.o;; pls dont nerf our cheese toon. it kills bad players easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caedmon.6798 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Would be a great change for wvw,its such a braindead aoe spamm fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 i'm thinkin maybe the offense stuff could be centered around the shade, and the support stuff could be centered around the necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straegen.2938 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 Damage should be X divided by the number of targets not X times the number of targets. I could careless that meteor storm or some other AoE hits 100 players. What I care about is that 100 x 4k shots is absurd DPS. Granted the big change to AoE was to deal with lag issues but IMO it was a very poor design decision to basically have spamable AoE in an action combat game of this scale. If they left it to me, spam AoE attacks would be systematically replaced and the few that remain would be class defining skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 @"Straegen.2938" said:Damage should be X divided by the number of targets not X times the number of targets. I could careless that meteor storm or some other AoE hits 100 players. What I care about is that 100 x 4k shots is absurd DPS. Granted the big change to AoE was to deal with lag issues but IMO it was a very poor design decision to basically have spamable AoE in an action combat game of this scale. If they left it to me, spam AoE attacks would be systematically replaced and the few that remain would be class defining skills.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meteor_ShowerIt doesnt hit "100 players". Or that it is "100X4k". Each subsequent hit deals less dmg. Unless your server likes to go into a big, red circle of AoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straegen.2938 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @"Voltekka.2375" said:It doesnt hit "100 players". Or that it is "100X4k". Each subsequent hit deals less dmg. Unless your server likes to go into a big, red circle of AoE. Attack damage should not be additive or multiplicative. Without the AoE cap, any AoE could easily hit 50 players. Pick any AoE... without a cap the DPS is insane. Damage should be calculated as X damage divided by Y players with no cap. Each meteor should deal X damage in total spread across however many players are in its AoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 nuuuuu dont nerf the weaver too. its what we use to kill guild groups.my glob. dont want to play the single target game focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djamonja.6453 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Chaba.5410 said:@XenesisII.1540 said:I didn't say not in the top five or even top three of damaging classes in wvw, there's a difference. No you didn't say that but there's a reason... Hint: 10 targetsNo better way to nerf their damage and area denial while keeping their boon corrupts intact. Hint: 10 targets.Reapers can do more damage than scourge, but scourge is better because of the boon strips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 this would only be relevant in WvW where if a necro get's close enough to the enemy zerg to hit the max 10 ppl (because he has to get close) he's most of the time dead within 4 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @derd.6413 said:this would only be relevant in WvW where if a necro get's close enough to the enemy zerg to hit the max 10 ppl (because he has to get close) he's most of the time dead within 4 seconds.ah, you're an enlightened person too :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Straegen.2938 said:Damage should be X divided by the number of targets not X times the number of targets. I could careless that meteor storm or some other AoE hits 100 players. What I care about is that 100 x 4k shots is absurd DPS. Granted the big change to AoE was to deal with lag issues but IMO it was a very poor design decision to basically have spamable AoE in an action combat game of this scale. If they left it to me, spam AoE attacks would be systematically replaced and the few that remain would be class defining skills......Okay since once again people don't spend 1 minute on actually considering what their idea actually means, let's do some theoretical math on how this would end up in either scenario.Let's assume a target cap of 5 players, let's assume damage of 4k per player if 5 players are hit (those are the given numbers so far) and thus a skill damage of 20k total and let's see what happens:AoE damage affects all targets until cap similarly (aka it gets multiplied by the amount of targets as is right now):For 5 Targets: 4k x 5 = 20k total damageFor 3 Targets: 4k x 3 = 12k total damageFor 1 Target: 4k x 1 = 4k total damageAoE damage is divided by the amount of targets hit thus resulting in less damage per target to more targets (given Suggestion):For 5 Targets: 20k total damage/5 = 4k damage per targetFor 3 Targets: 20k/3 = 6.6k damage per targetFor 1 Target: 20k/1 = 20k damage to targetYes, please change this. I can't wait to have people instant die to AoE skills when caught out...TL;DR:There is a logical reason as to why damage in this game scales per player AND is capped in targets. The target cap prevents power creeping over a certain value X while at the same time allowing for a certain growth in efficiency. The multiplication per target instead of division prevents over performance against less than the target capped targets.FYI, if meteor shower were balanced without a target cap and for hitting up to 100 players, those numbers up top would get even worse for smaller amounts of targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Just put it to small aoes and scourge aoe gets balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother.1504 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Thief steal should hit 10 people. It’s only fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Brother.1504 said:Thief steal should hit 10 people. It’s only Fair.Keyboards have f1 to f12It would be game changer right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Voltekka.2375 said:Scourge hits 10 targets for 3k, 30k total dmg (half of which you have to be melee) . CoR hits 5 targets for 10-15 K per hit, at range, meaning 50-75k. With lower cd. One would argue that scourge's main job isnt damage, but that means one should know wvw basics. Yes, BASICS. Its 2019, scourges have been nerfed time and again, boons being spammed reign supreme, scrappers adding more sustain than ever, yet we still QQ about... Scourge and its targets.insert Owen Wilson WOW meme10 or 15 k on CoR Only if scourge has previously corrupt protection and aegis on the targetBut giving the most broken example to defend the second best one isn't really helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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