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Caithe's Morals vs Honor


Kashin.7192

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:

and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

Shocking news, an inexperienced, young Caithe did a rash and stupid move that she pretty much literally regretted her entire life.

Regret as much as you want, she murdered her SISTER because she was too much of a coward to tell Faolain to stop. There is nothing she ever did to redeem that horrible deed.

She got even "rewarded" to be the nanny of a very important dragon baby. From that point of view you can even go that far and argue that the commander it is totally fine that a murderer is a babysitter.

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She holds to her own Code very well. I do wish she would confide it to someone though so we understood her a bit more. Again though I have no problem with her Code/Morals, etc because there is the need for the darker character... except for when she stepped on my honor. That was an action that didn't only affected her. Most everything else she has done came back on her.

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@Fenella.2634 said:Yet again, she had about 20 years of time to prepare. Maybe within all that time she could have come up with a way to do that more discretely? No reason to suddenly go public with everything right before the attack started, this could have been handled more intelligently, given the time. The Tree had found a good solution by her own, by having the Dream a a kind of shield against Mordremoth. Maybe Tree and Caithe together could have found a better solution than not doing anything at all.

Then you factor in Mordremoth was asleep with zero indication of when he would actually wake up. He was woken early by Scarlet.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

and I disagree with you on that. What Caithe did to W. was special. Incredible stupid and done out of cowardice. Something she hadn't shown before - or after.

Shocking news, an inexperienced, young Caithe did a rash and stupid move that she pretty much literally regretted her entire life.

Regret as much as you want, she murdered her SISTER because she was too much of a coward to tell Faolain to stop. There is nothing she ever did to redeem that horrible deed.

Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

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@Nogothanc.5014 said:@Kashin.7192

Caithe was an interesting character to me but well... without spoilering you have to play season two. Just in case you dont know. You can play season two with a friend or guild mate. Your character will not be the main but you get the story without paying gems for it.

Or you know... they could support the game and purchase this pretty reasonably priced bit of DLC.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

Just for clarification are you saying that its totally fine to murder innocents when the murderer has been abused, manipulated and controlled?

Caithe had one choice to make. Kill W or finally stand up and stop her amoral lover. Caithe "prefered" to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation. And thats the point where Caithe lost my sympathy.

Well and I always disliked the "teenager loves criminal" trope.

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@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

Just for clarification are you saying that its totally fine to murder innocents when the murderer has been abused, manipulated and controlled?

Caithe had one choice to make. Kill W or finally stand up and stop her amoral lover. Caithe "prefered" to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation. And thats the point where Caithe lost my sympathy.

Well and I always disliked the "teenager loves criminal" trope.

No one is saying that it was fine. Only that it's not surprising that people with messed-up brains tend to do messed-up things.

And isn't it a trope too when a character has pretty much everything pushing them the wrong way, but they still overcome it just because it's oh-so-right? Seen that quite often.

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@Nogothanc.5014 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:Have you read Caithe's Requiem? Faolain, from very, very early on manipulated and controlled Caithe in an extremely abusive manner that made Caithe unable to really do anything against her.

Hindsight is a great thing, but at the time Caithe was shoved into a very bad situation, between an abusive, manipulative, controlling girlfriend, and a sister with a secret who if left there, would be beaten and tortured until the secret was revealed.

Just for clarification are you saying that its totally fine to murder innocents when the murderer has been abused, manipulated and controlled?

Caithe had one choice to make. Kill W or finally stand up and stop her amoral lover. Caithe "prefered" to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation. And thats the point where Caithe lost my sympathy.

Well and I always disliked the "teenager loves criminal" trope.

Rather than saying it's "totally fine", rather, I would argue it's understandable. Psychological trauma built over years of manipulation cannot be fought just because of one simple revelation that the person who abused and manipulated you into trusting and depending on is a mean person.

Wynne knew that Caithe wouldn't be able to overcome that trauma to kill Faolain in such short timespan, and that Faolain were too persistent. That's why Wynne asked Caithe to kill her instead of kill Faolain. Rather than gamble the riskier option, she gambled the more sure option for the sake of her people.

Caithe isn't innocent, but she's still a victim in that situation as well. She didn't prefer to kill "an innocent" (as questionable as that is) to avoid confrontation. If you think it's so easy to overcome such trauma and manipulation, you probably also blame people for spending away their life savings due to addictions of any kind.

Also, Caithe's situation isn't a "teenager loves criminal trope". Caithe didn't know Faolain was a manipulative bitch because she hid it at first, and only began to show Caithe the signs when Caithe was dependent on her (aka, during the time of the flashbacks in S2); though earlier lore does tell us that, originally, Faolain wasn't a manipulative bitch but that such began after the two encountered a "darkness" on their travels. Caithe's early story is that of an abuse victim, not a "naive girl loves the bad boy" situation. Though Caithe would certainly have been naive at the time, being only 3-4 years old with no relationship knowledge in the Dream of Dreams to draw from.

Though with - and since - Season 2, ArenaNet has written Faolain to be worse than she was originally presented, Caithe's reaction is probably the most realistic of all Dragon's Watch / Destiny's Edge member histories (what few we know for the latter...).

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Rather than saying it's "totally fine", rather, I would argue it's understandable. Psychological trauma built over years of manipulation cannot be fought just because of one simple revelation that the person who abused and manipulated you into trusting and depending on is a mean person.

I am not saying its totally fine. I was asking a question to clarify what has been said. While I agree in general that mental manipulation and abuse is hard to fight against in a short time I think killing an innocent is more than just one "simple" revelation. When Caithe is willing to kill an innocent than she has reached in my eyes a "point of no return" and just because she cannot "face the truth" does not make her murder right. I think her emotional destabilization is in no way an excuse or a justification for murdering an innocent.

Wynne knew that Caithe wouldn't be able to overcome that trauma to kill Faolain in such short timespan, and that Faolain were too persistent. That's why Wynne asked Caithe to kill her instead of kill Faolain. Rather than gamble the riskier option, she gambled the more sure option for the sake of her people.I think thats a speculation that could be true but we dont know if its true. Anyway what Wynne knew or not knew doesnt matter when we look at the decision Caithe had to face. We know for sure that Wynne presented Caithe another option to get out of the situation.

Caithe isn't innocent, but she's still a victim in that situation as well. She didn't prefer to kill "an innocent" (as questionable as that is) to avoid confrontation.Yes, she is guilty. And yes she is a victim of mental abuse. I reduce the situation she was in to the choice of killing an innocent or confront her amoral lover. Because of her emotional state and the mental abuse and of course the love she had for Faolin and that she is the submissive part in that relationship because of all that she does not want a confrontation with Faolin. She is looking for a way out of that situation. Having these things in mind I repeat and a bit more specific Caithe preferred in that situation in that state of mind and emotions to kill an innocent to avoid the confrontation with Faolin. That Wynne begged to be killed made that decision "easier". And no that does not mean that the decision is easy for her. Both options are bad but in the end she preferred one option over the other and I say because of her history with Faolin she preferred one option to avoid the other.

If you think it's so easy to overcome such trauma and manipulation, you probably also blame people for spending away their life savings due to addictions of any kind.speculation and assumption about what I think and a questionable correlation of two different topics... really? you are smarter than this.

Also, Caithe's situation isn't a "teenager loves criminal trope". Caithe didn't know Faolain was a manipulative kitten because she hid it at first, and only began to show Caithe the signs when Caithe was dependent on her (aka, during the time of the flashbacks in S2); though earlier lore does tell us that, originally, Faolain wasn't a manipulative kitten but that such began after the two encountered a "darkness" on their travels. Caithe's early story is that of an abuse victim, not a "naive girl loves the bad boy" situation. Though Caithe would certainly have been naive at the time, being only 3-4 years old with no relationship knowledge in the Dream of Dreams to draw from.

My statement that I dislike teenager loves criminal trope results of the similarity of the following:Criminal manipulating the teenager to love him, making her dependant and than making her do what he wants. The emotional and mental influence of the criminal lead to "bad decisions" of the teenager.Faolin manipulating Caithe to love her, making her dependant and than making her do what she wants. The emotional and mental influence of Faolin lead to "bad decisions" of Caithe.

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I mean, for reasons stated, I don't really mind Caithe so much. She's a victim of mental manipulation. If I can ally with the Charr Legions or the people of Lions Arch, who from a society standpoint are basically villain protagonists in a lot of cases, I can stand Caithe.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:The fact that Caithe assists Faolain with genocide and follows her despite how obviously evil she's acting really made me loathe the character. The two's relationship is very forced and poorly explained.

Did you read her Requiem? It goes into that aspect.

Also, she came back to see, IIRC, Faolain being attacked by a centaur. And then of course, she's got the choices of a: attack my girlfriend. or B: attack the Centaur who I just saw trying to kill my girlfriend.

This is also when they were younger, and Caithe did not have the experience or knowledge she later has.

This is also one of those things Caithe regrets for the rest of her life so... It's not like she treated this as normal at all.

@Loesh.4697 said:I mean, for reasons stated, I don't really mind Caithe so much. She's a victim of mental manipulation. If I can ally with the Charr Legions or the people of Lions Arch, who from a society standpoint are basically villain protagonists in a lot of cases, I can stand Caithe.

Also a point. A persons history doesn't always describe what they do now. LA was refounded by Pirates who actively stole from the Charr Legions, Kryta, and other groups. Yet now have a steady relationship with every government active and is basically the central trade hub of Tyria, also maintaining and guard the roads through the land from Maguuma to the border of Ascalon.

The Charr Legions have undergone extensive changes, though their history is very dark.

Caithe's history is dark, but now that she's free of Faolain, she can move upwards.

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Just because she is your mentor doesn't mean she isn't a flawed person. Caithe, at the beginning of the personal story, hasn't resolved or come to terms with many of her character arcs (Destiny's Edge falling apart, Faolin's mind games, the secret that all sylvari are Dragon Minions). Of course she is going to break her word and/or betray her allies if she can justify it was for the greater good... I mean, just look at her actions in LS2.

That's just who she is.

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Every member of DE is "flawed" some way or another. I do agree that Caithe is one of the better developed characters of this game. However, that does not mean we have to like her or we have to agree with her decisions. Being a well-written character with a personality means people can like or dislike that personality.Just as there are RL people whose reasons for actions I can understand, but who I still don't like.

As for Caithe, as I said, I kind of understand why she acts the way she does. Still, I would not consider her a friend anymore and not want her close. Also, her new sect is super scary.

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That type of thing actually happens a number of times for me...Where an NPC does something I disagree with (or at least mt character would), but I'm forced to go along with it because I have no choice. I'd really like to be given more choices along the way, but I understand that that would cause more writing, animation, and expense to Anet so see why they don't. I know they try to show the differences in Vigil, Whispers, and Priory, but it's really kinda vague, and has little bearing in your choices after then end of that story line.

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