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Its time to fix Outnumbered


Zetsuei.8942

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Lets look at the buff: It gives 50% Participation, 20% MF, 25% WXP, no armor damage on death and no war score for enemy. Overall this buff makes no sense. Some are those decent but the rest serve no purpose. What is MF and WXP gonna do when you can't fight back or take anything?

Outnumbered should become what I always view it as: A way to fight back. If you're truly outnumbered you won't win. If the enemy has 60 and you have 15 you just cant win, but if the buff gave offense and defense buffs then at least you can do something. It should give something like 100% flat damage and like 75% damage reduction. If outnumbered was like this then low populated servers could at least fight back.

As I sit here and type this my server is being spawn camped and we're unable to do anything because the 15 of us can't fight their 30+ here. If outnumbered gave some form of damage increase/damage reduction then we could at least push in and fight. I know Anet lacks the resources to do sweeping changes but changing the values on a buff has to be easy and its desperately needed.

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generally i think its not a bad idea if there was some kind of outnumbered = survival instinct buffs and for the situation you describe it would indeed be of help.

but i believe that experienced smallscale guilds will just use this outnumbered buff and walk over any other squad then, making fights alot unequal.

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Again and as we've said every single time this reckless and thoughtless idea come up, you are suggesting that 5 players should get 100% damage buff when they are ganking 1 enemy, just because that 1 enemy happen to have a 50 man zerging PPTing an undefended keep on the other side of the border. The outnumbered buff does not consider whether you are actually fighting outnumbered or not.

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Maybe add additional rewards (war score, pips etc.) for capturing / killing / defending vs. the dominant server, so that the outnumbered servers work together vs. the dominant one.

If the dominant server keeps its full zone, it would still win the fights, but lose by points / map coverage.

If the dominant server splits its forces, it would still win the coverage, but fights would be more even.

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Combat buffs are a horrible idea and I shouldn't have to explain to you why.

How is the current buff nonsensical? You don't grant them any score. They can farm you 24/7 and they don't gain anything from it besides an ego boost and 5 world exp per kill. Fantastic. Have you tried, I don't know, using one of the 2 other spawn exits?

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Lower the cap on the number of players allowed in each map during off hours.If prime NA time map player size is 70 players from each server per map, then hours after prime NA time will be gradually reduced over the hours and capped at 20 or less before increasing back to 70 as the hours approach NA prime again.Any extra players trying to get into the map will have to queue.Or transfer off to a less populated world to play.

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@Zetsuei.8942 said:A way to fight back. If you're truly outnumbered you won't win.

Outnumbered was never intended as a buff to allow people to fight back. Not sure where you got this notion. Even the buff as it is implemented right now does NOTHING in the way of giving a combat advantage.

Outnumbered was and is designed to create an incentive to join the fight or to reward players who are fighting an uphill battle if succeeding against the odds. That is a completely different approach to say try to equalize the success chance. Now we could argue if the buff as is right now fullfills its purpose or not and how it might be improved or which improvements could be made to create situations where more equal number of players fight each other (starting with maybe a stacking penalty for consecutive server transfers within following matchups), but that is something completely different than giving combat advantage.

As others have stated, combat buffs are a terrible idea. They would create a ton of problems beyond balance. If you don't understand this or don't see this, you shouldn't be part of this conversation.

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@Zetsuei.8942 said:Lets look at the buff: It gives 50% Participation, 20% MF, 25% WXP, no armor damage on death and no war score for enemy. Overall this buff makes no sense. Some are those decent but the rest serve no purpose. What is MF and WXP gonna do when you can't fight back or take anything?It makes up for it. Because you won't take much, it will reward more to compensate.

Outnumbered should become what I always view it as: A way to fight back. If you're truly outnumbered you won't win. If the enemy has 60 and you have 15 you just cant win, but if the buff gave offense and defense buffs then at least you can do something. It should give something like 100% flat damage and like 75% damage reduction. If outnumbered was like this then low populated servers could at least fight back.

I would literally swap maps all day for the buff just to instagib people.Defense buffs on my Minstrel Firebrand would also be fun to troll enemies.

As I sit here and type this my server is being spawn camped and we're unable to do anything because the 15 of us can't fight their 30+ here. If outnumbered gave some form of damage increase/damage reduction then we could at least push in and fight. I know Anet lacks the resources to do sweeping changes but changing the values on a buff has to be easy and its desperately needed.

There are usually 3 exits to a spawn. Go around them? You also have a warclaw to help with that.

If you're keen to fight them, group up and bait them to somewhere with siege.If you're keen to PPT, hit objectives on the other side of the map or coordinate to hit 2 objectives at once expecting 1 to fail.

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Yes, they should change the outnumbered buff.

No, they shouldn't add damage modifiers or anything like that.

They should devalue the map for server score when it appears. Make it a grade. High vs. low, 100% more players, 0% map value. 50% = 50% etc.

That will likely change player behaviour with transfers, reward players fighting under even conditions and solve population balance over time.

It also enables them to remove the queue system and use overflows. It works under the server system and will work under the alliance system.

It does all of that without unecessarily punishing off-time players or smaller scaled players. I've pretty much said this since outnumbered came out.

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@"Zetsuei.8942" said:

Outnumbered should become what I always view it as: A way to fight back. If you're truly outnumbered you won't win. If the enemy has 60 and you have 15 you just cant win, but if the buff gave offense and defense buffs then at least you can do something. It should give something like 100% flat damage and like 75% damage reduction. If outnumbered was like this then low populated servers could at least fight back.

I agree: WvW should offer handicap mechanics, that buff the currently losing / overpowered side, in order to keep losers engaged, but also in order to keep the overpowering side engaged. If one side greatly outshines the other, usually what happens is that the losing commander tags off, meaning the aleady losing side is now not even getting that 10 second resistance chance. And then the winning commander tags off, because there is nothing to do anymore. Everyone loses.I'd suggest tying such mechanics like you suggested not to "outnumbered", but rather to the success of one side. What you want to avoid is, that you have a really tight guild group of about 15 people, already winning lots of fights, a full blob on the other side, lacking organization and THEN buff the already winning side.

However if you're outnumbered, maybe you should try your luck on a different map until such a time where Arenanet realizes that in order to make WvW more interesting, they have to keep the maximum number of people possible engaged.

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This will be very bad idea, if solo roaming is dead, this will completely erase it from WvW.Suppose you are alone and you see a lone enemy with an outnumber buff with X% damage -Y%damage reduction.What is the point in fighting 1 vs 1 when your enemy has the advantage?

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@Zetsuei.8942 said:As I sit here and type this my server is being spawn camped and we're unable to do anything because the 15 of us can't fight their 30+ here.

The Outnumbered buff is an incentive to keep fighting in a map rather than abandon it, not to give combat advantages, as others have already stated (though I think some of the score deprecations are interesting ideas.)

But what about a “Spawn Camped” buff to focus on the specific issue of spawn camping?

Let’s say the enemy/ally ratio in spawn territory (using current territory boundaries) is 2:1 (or whatever). If the ratio persists until the next 5m tick (mirroring how Outnumbered gets applied), everyone in map currently (but not fresh joiners) gets the buff that opens a portal in spawn leading to a random tower (excluding camps/keeps) on that enemy’s territory in the same map (similar to the non-random travel portals in Edge of the Mists, again not usable by players just joining the map.) Hitting objectives while this buff is active doesn’t cause swords to show on the map until the buff is gone.

Or maybe the portal exits “inside” the random enemy tower (any tier) — you can bet spawn would clear up fast.

Yes, there’s more than one path out of spawn, but it’s still a relatively tight area. This buff will likely only last one tick. It deters spawn-camping, and creates activity again, even if short-lived once the zerg hunts you down. So the spawn-campers get a slap on the wrist, the outnumbered team gets a little progress, but no combat buffs to disenfranchise any side.

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i like the idea, those numbers are way too high though. 75% damage reduction is nuts by itself, then you deal 100% more damage as well?something that scales dynamically like 5%/5% if you're just outnumbered enough to pop the buff up to like 20-25% if you're way outnumbered would be more appropriate. gives you more of a fighting chance but the side with more numbers/better coordination will still probably win

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@Dawdler.8521 said:Again and as we've said every single time this reckless and thoughtless idea come up, you are suggesting that 5 players should get 100% damage buff when they are ganking 1 enemy, just because that 1 enemy happen to have a 50 man zerging PPTing an undefended keep on the other side of the border. The outnumbered buff does not consider whether you are actually fighting outnumbered or not.

While I agree outnumbered defenders should not receive damage reduction in addition to what they already receive, I want to touch on the 1 enemy roamer scenario in your post. Roaming is risky when done right, but a single roamer ppting outside of his/her zerg covered BL isn't really taking risks. They are counting on distraction to be able to call themselves a roamer. That defenders would choose to ignore a blob and go after the opportunist instead is just common sense. Neither side is necessarily right, but neither deserves sympathy either.

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@Zetsuei.8942 said:should give something like 100% flat damage and like 75% damage reduction.As someone who enjoys smallscale roaming on outnumbered maps I would love this for small scale and think it would be completely balanced. =)

... In all seriousness if they're going to do something to truly provide an advantage for outnumbered players with regards to the mechanics of the gamemode they should grant folks with the outnumbered buff +25% siege damage vs. structures, or something. It would improve the potential of ninja'ing unscouted structures and keep the more numerous defenders on their toes.

That said, with the way the balancing crew over at Anet functions, they'll probably add something weird to the buff, like 100% downstate health and +15% damage against the mobs associated with the Veteran Creature Slayer daily.

~ Kovu

Edit- That first line was sarcasm. Doesn't translate well with text.

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@HazyDaisy.4107 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Again and as we've said every single time this reckless and thoughtless idea come up, you are suggesting that 5 players should get 100% damage buff when they are ganking 1 enemy, just because that 1 enemy happen to have a 50 man zerging PPTing an undefended keep on the other side of the border.
The outnumbered buff does not consider whether you are actually fighting outnumbered or not
.

While I agree outnumbered defenders should not receive damage reduction in addition to what they already receive, I want to touch on the 1 enemy roamer scenario in your post. Roaming is risky when done right, but a single roamer ppting outside of his/her zerg covered BL isn't really taking risks. They are counting on distraction to be able to call themselves a roamer. That defenders would choose to ignore a blob and go after the opportunist instead is just common sense. Neither side is necessarily right, but neither deserves sympathy either.That has absolutely nothing to do with the point and isnt even relevant to the thread.

I could have said it was a 5v5 already engaged in a fight when the tick change and the situation would be exactly the same - 5 of those would still have 100% damage done and 75% less damage taken because according to the outnumbered buff its 5v55.

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@Kovu.7560 said:

@Zetsuei.8942 said:they should grant folks with the outnumbered buff +25% siege damage vs. structures, or something. It would improve the potential of ninja'ing unscouted structures and keep the more numerous defenders on their toes.

I was going to post something that was essentially this. Making the outnumbered buff give health/damage mitigation/damage output benefits would be terrible. It would encourage people to not log on. Guilds are going to be less inclined to play the game if they get into a 10v10 when the other side has a 40+ pug zerg somewhere else on the map, thus giving the group of 10 the advantage.So I think the only way to level the playing field would be through siege. More damage to walls/gates and more damage to players. This way actual player vs player fights wouldn't be ruined, but the 5 defenders may have a better chance against the 30 breaking down their gate.

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