Thief - 07/15/2019 Upcoming Balance Notes!!

[BoxHat.1824]

@Joshewwah.2956 said:Why doesn't Leeching Venoms reduce the recharge of venoms? Venoms are already useless enough...

I think anet is generally trying to move away from CD reduction traits as it makes them harder to balance. All the elite specs have been lacking them for example

[elemainomegalul.4261]

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[SehferViega.8725]

@"mtnjkbm.7452" said:"Let's stop beating a dead horse. Let's focus on what changes are really in dire need rather then trying to bring dead things to life. Like revert Lead Attacks and revert Steal change and even exhaustion on DrD dodge. Those 3 "minor" things would do so much more then changing traps or buffing inf. signet."

^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!!!

Don't forget Exposed Weakness change, that only hits solo roaming Thieves with no sense lost of damage..

[Joshewwah.2956]

@Ustaf.2953 said:

@Joshewwah.2956 said:Why doesn't Leeching Venoms reduce the recharge of venoms? Venoms are already useless enough...

I think anet is generally trying to move away from CD reduction traits as it makes them harder to balance. All the elite specs have been lacking them for example

I understand that, but venoms are useless. Nobody uses them except for core s/d that only use basilisk venom. I've never seen a thief build ever in wvw/pvp that uses multiple venoms. I don't even think condi thief would benefit from SA, they almost always take trickery and deadly arts.

[Sobx.1758]

@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Dave.6819" said:Let's stop beating a dead horse. Let's focus on what changes are really in dire need rather then trying to bring dead things to life.

Copy-paste the first paragraph of this post. I just disagree with your opinion on this one. Trying to bring dead things to life is a good thing for the players, much needed build diversity and the game as a whole.

Sobx - I agree. I believe Dave is talking from a pvp aspect where if we are not helping the meta or at least adding to it is not worth it. This will help build variety but only the ones that will appreciate it are open world and wvw(not try hard guilds in wvw), where you don't get flamed for not using meta.

Ok, I kind of understand it for pvp mode (still, no details on the changes, so wouldn't be so sure, you can get some utility and survivability from SA now), but I don't see how at this point (as in with the basic information we currently have) these changes can't be useful for wvw roaming and small scale fights. I think they really can be, depending on the values they'll have.So even just blindly believing that everything about this patch will be utterly useless for constructed pvp, I 100% disagree with him claiming that it "changes noithing" (because of wvw, not because of pve) and "we shouldn't try to bring back dead things". If you want changes in the meta, you bring more possibilities to the table instead of just honing the existing cookie-cutter builds and calling it a day. That said, opinions are still just opinions, so w/e. :D

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@Joshewwah.2956 said:

@Ustaf.2953 said:

@Joshewwah.2956 said:Why doesn't Leeching Venoms reduce the recharge of venoms? Venoms are already useless enough...

I think anet is generally trying to move away from CD reduction traits as it makes them harder to balance. All the elite specs have been lacking them for example

I don't even think condi thief would benefit from SA, they almost always take trickery and deadly arts.

Again, there are no numbers available, but you stack venom while in stealth with SA. And then you have the "stealth after using heal skill" along with increased stealth duration. So why exactly wouldn't condi thief even consider taking SA at this point?

[Carnifex.3275]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Dave.6819" said:Let's stop beating a dead horse. Let's focus on what changes are really in dire need rather then trying to bring dead things to life.

Copy-paste the first paragraph of this post. I just disagree with your opinion on this one. Trying to bring dead things to life is a good thing for the players, much needed build diversity and the game as a whole.

Sobx - I agree. I believe Dave is talking from a pvp aspect where if we are not helping the meta or at least adding to it is not worth it. This will help build variety but only the ones that will appreciate it are open world and wvw(not try hard guilds in wvw), where you don't get flamed for not using meta.

Ok, I kind of understand it for pvp mode (still, no details on the changes, so wouldn't be so sure, you can get some utility and survivability from SA now), but I don't see how at this point (as in with the basic information we currently have) these changes can't be useful for wvw roaming and small scale fights. I think they really can be, depending on the values they'll have.So even just blindly believing that everything about this patch will be utterly useless for constructed pvp, I 100% disagree with him claiming that it "changes noithing" (because of wvw, not because of pve) and "we shouldn't try to bring back dead things". If you want changes in the meta, you bring more possibilities to the table instead of just honing the existing cookie-cutter builds and calling it a day. That said, opinions are still just opinions, so w/e. :D

Oh believe me i would really much enjoy SA being meta again but do we really think anet can do that? .. I'd like Shadows Refuge to be a thing again. To not be revealed again. To actually ress up people and be able to 1v1 like a duelist. But to make it meta then u need to buff it even more. Like.. to make people not take Deadly Arts or even Trickery u gotta make other traitline so much more stronger. Sometimes reading patch notes really is enuff. That's why i'm saying let's stop beating a dead horse. There's not much chances that Anet will buff SA or even Crit traitlines so much that it would become meta. So instead of that... let's atleast focus on meta build for PvP and make it good. Small changes. Steal revert. Lead attacks revert. Dagger auto revert. Exhaustion revert. Ain't much. Those nerfs were really uncalled for anyway and Daredevil wasn't OP at all when it had those. And after those u can then think about other traitlines and how to make people play em and bring more diversity. But atleast in the meantime ppl will be enjoying thief again. Anyway blah blah blah.. not like our opinions matter. Anet will do what they want and when they want. We players gave lots of good feedback what changes are needed. Not like they listened to us anyway.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

I like how SA is slowly becoming more active rather than passive, less damage reduction for sitting in stealth and more reward for attacking from stealth.

My main question would be is the fear from rending shade applicable only to the sneak attack? I hope so, as putting it on a CD but having it applicable to any attack would be hilarious but extremely broken.

[babazhook.6805]

@Joshewwah.2956 said:

@Ustaf.2953 said:

@Joshewwah.2956 said:Why doesn't Leeching Venoms reduce the recharge of venoms? Venoms are already useless enough...

I think anet is generally trying to move away from CD reduction traits as it makes them harder to balance. All the elite specs have been lacking them for example

I understand that, but venoms are useless. Nobody uses them except for core s/d that only use basilisk venom. I've never seen a thief build ever in wvw/pvp that uses multiple venoms. I don't even think condi thief would benefit from SA, they almost always take trickery and deadly arts.

You do not use venoms unless you are a condition build. The reason you do not see many used in WvW is becuase most builds are power builds. This does not mean "venoms are useless". They could certainly be better but I always have skale venom on my p/d condition build traited.

The reason they not traited in multiples is not because they are useless but because you need to have slots available for things like Shadowstep . Generally there only one slot a person can really free up for a venom , if they do not take skale they took spiders and both are effective.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Joshewwah.2956 said:

@Ustaf.2953 said:

@Joshewwah.2956 said:Why doesn't Leeching Venoms reduce the recharge of venoms? Venoms are already useless enough...

I think anet is generally trying to move away from CD reduction traits as it makes them harder to balance. All the elite specs have been lacking them for example

I understand that, but venoms are useless. Nobody uses them except for core s/d that only use basilisk venom. I've never seen a thief build ever in wvw/pvp that uses multiple venoms. I don't even think condi thief would benefit from SA, they almost always take trickery and deadly arts.

You do not use venoms unless you are a condition build. The reason you do not see many used in WvW is becuase most builds are power builds. This does not mean "venoms are useless". They could certainly be better but I always have skale venom on my p/d condition build traited.

The reason they not traited in multiples is not because they are useless but because you need to have slots available for things like Shadowstep . Generally there only one slot a person can really free up for a venom , if they do not take skale they took spiders and both are effective.

Replying to Josh mainly as I know Babaz knows this, but venom share when defending a camp can be hilarious xD

[kash.9213]

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:I like how SA is slowly becoming more active rather than passive, less damage reduction for sitting in stealth and more reward for attacking from stealth.

My main question would be is the fear from rending shade applicable only to the sneak attack? I hope so, as putting it on a CD but having it applicable to any attack would be hilarious but extremely broken.

The wording "... if it hits a boonless foe." sounds like it's from the Rending sneak attack, which is still pretty awesome. Rending Shade usually tops off my other boon steals unless I run into one of those sustain squads or something. The frequency of bringing someone to zero boons isn't great for simple damage increase or reduction but I've always felt the frequency of getting those boon stacks was good and should be good for that fear and should be balanced enough to not need any cd.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Out of curiosity, what is Rending Shade's interaction with Malicious Surprise Shot? Does it only remove boons on the initial hit, or do the splinter shots also remove boons?

[Sobx.1758]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Out of curiosity, what is Rending Shade's interaction with Malicious Surprise Shot? Does it only remove boons on the initial hit, or do the splinter shots also remove boons?

Test it in a few days and let us know :D

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@kash.9213 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:I like how SA is slowly becoming more active rather than passive, less damage reduction for sitting in stealth and more reward for attacking from stealth.

My main question would be is the fear from rending shade applicable only to the sneak attack? I hope so, as putting it on a CD but having it applicable to any attack would be hilarious but extremely broken.

The wording "... if

it

hits a boonless foe." sounds like it's from the Rending sneak attack, which is still pretty awesome. Rending Shade usually tops off my other boon steals unless I run into one of those sustain squads or something. The frequency of bringing someone to zero boons isn't great for simple damage increase or reduction but I've always felt the frequency of getting those boon stacks was good and should be good for that fear and should be balanced enough to not need any cd.

Yeah, I've been playing with it today in a test build to get used to the way I want to play after the patch and it's been pretty great against stuff that normally relies on protection to tank. I guess a lot depends whether it applies the boon rip before it checks for the fear or after, either way it's gonna be a nice way to make hard ressing a down much harder.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Out of curiosity, what is Rending Shade's interaction with Malicious Surprise Shot? Does it only remove boons on the initial hit, or do the splinter shots also remove boons?

I think it will probably only remove boons on the initial hit, if the way it behaves with the pistol's sneak attack is anything to go by. The potential chain fear combo would be hilarious tho xD

[babazhook.6805]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Joshewwah.2956 said:

@Ustaf.2953 said:

@Joshewwah.2956 said:Why doesn't Leeching Venoms reduce the recharge of venoms? Venoms are already useless enough...

I think anet is generally trying to move away from CD reduction traits as it makes them harder to balance. All the elite specs have been lacking them for example

I understand that, but venoms are useless. Nobody uses them except for core s/d that only use basilisk venom. I've never seen a thief build ever in wvw/pvp that uses multiple venoms. I don't even think condi thief would benefit from SA, they almost always take trickery and deadly arts.

You do not use venoms unless you are a condition build. The reason you do not see many used in WvW is becuase most builds are power builds. This does not mean "venoms are useless". They could certainly be better but I always have skale venom on my p/d condition build traited.

The reason they not traited in multiples is not because they are useless but because you need to have slots available for things like Shadowstep . Generally there only one slot a person can really free up for a venom , if they do not take skale they took spiders and both are effective.

Replying to Josh mainly as I know Babaz knows this, but venom share when defending a camp can be hilarious xD

I was once solo defending a tower where the walls down and three guys kept rushing it. No one showed to help but I loaded with venoms and shared with the guards. They must of tried 6 times to take it before I had help arrive.

[Straegen.2938]

Seal Area actually seems like it might be troll fun. The portal seems like a conditional thing to teleport other players in after a tower flip. As for the rest:

• SA Concealing Restoration is a nice buff.
• SA Meld with Shadows also a nice buff.
• SA Shadow Siphoning is likely a pretty big nerf since thieves had no other direct access to protection
• SA Adept tier having to choose Shadows Embrace or Hidden Thief... ouch big nerf
• SA Master tier is mostly pointless now
• SA Cloaked in Shadow - If the siphon procs a reveal... then this is worse than useless as stacking stealth could reveal a player
• SA Grandmaster is at best a meh or at worst a nerf.
• DA Dagger Training is a small nerf particularly for D/? condi
• DA Deadly Ambition seems to be a wash to me since I used the unblockable trap to good effect
• DA Even the Odds, mostly pointless since Panic Strike is so good.

Net trait changes to me is a nerf at least on paper. While I like most of the minor trait changes having to choose between Hidden Thief or Shadow's Embrace is a pretty big nerf to SA in my eyes. Not getting damage reduction while stealthed, also a nerf as that is one of the big saves when getting channeled.

None of these changes will improve any of my builds, a couple of changes are straight nerfs and I don't see any new builds being made out of these changes. Hope I am wrong.

[saerni.2584]

@Straegen.2938

They changed what hidden thief does. It may not be as bad to continue to select SE as you think.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@saerni.2584 said:@Straegen.2938

They changed what hidden thief does. It may not be as bad to continue to select SE as you think.

The stealth on heal skill as a minor is also significant. A stealth on withdraw is comparable to a trickery traited stealth on steal cooldown wise. I do agree tho, those two traits being in the same tier is painful on first glance.

I think the master tier trait that grants damage reduction on reveal will be useful on deadeye if you take some boon duration gear. Remember that taking M7 gives you protection on max malice so you'd potentially have both active while attacking, so mixing in a few diviners pieces or taking durability runes could make the trait much better Vs soulbeast or holo than you first think.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I think for me (at least for the beginnings of this patch before any updates) I won't be dedicating any build that uses the preparations in skill slots, but I will instead use them dynamically as needed - just switching out 1 util item out of combat. I'm honestly interested of all the balance changes to every class on a whole, but cautious. It will need time to rotate through everything and become effective.

[Taobella.6597]

i spent some time thinking about the changes i can say i am not a fan of changes to deadly art however new "traps" sound like they could be very strong zerging skills if there CD are not crazy.

[draxynnic.3719]

I'm inclined to agree with the people that say that the devil is in the proverbial details when it comes to the Shadow Arts changes. If the numbers are low, then nobody will care. If the numbers are high, it could be the next brokenness that everyone is demanding to be nerfed by the time of the next balance patch. If the numbers are well calibrated... I for one can see the potential for new builds coming out of this.

[Denpakei.7326]

Dagger Training: This trait no longer inflicts poison on dagger attacks.

This is the only change i disslike. :disappointed_relieved:

I only hope this profession will get new and long life. :s

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Denpakei.7326 said:I only hope this profession will get new and long life. :sIt only gets bright but short lived flames.

[Straegen.2938]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:The stealth on heal skill as a minor is also significant. A stealth on withdraw is comparable to a trickery traited stealth on steal cooldown wise. I do agree tho, those two traits being in the same tier is painful on first glance.

The difference though is that stealth on steal is frequently an opener for a backstab or similar. Not many prime an attack with a heal. I appreciate the stealth on heal but losing the 33% damage reduction and stealth on steal seems like a nerf.

[BoxHat.1824]

@Straegen.2938 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:The stealth on heal skill as a minor is also significant. A stealth on withdraw is comparable to a trickery traited stealth on steal cooldown wise. I do agree tho, those two traits being in the same tier is painful on first glance.

The difference though is that stealth on steal is frequently an opener for a backstab or similar. Not many prime an attack with a heal. I appreciate the stealth on heal but losing the 33% damage reduction and stealth on steal seems like a nerf.

On the contrary, I find stealth on steal extremely disruptive, because it prevent you from being able to precast a stealth attack and then steal midcast to guarantee landing it. (Idk why this happens tbh)

I am very much looking forward to stealth on heal because it allows you to disengage and sustain with withdraw every 18 seconds and then imidiately reapply pressure with a stealth attack. Seems really good for duelist builds.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Ustaf.2953 said:

@Straegen.2938 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:The stealth on heal skill as a minor is also significant. A stealth on withdraw is comparable to a trickery traited stealth on steal cooldown wise. I do agree tho, those two traits being in the same tier is painful on first glance.

The difference though is that stealth on steal is frequently an opener for a backstab or similar. Not many prime an attack with a heal. I appreciate the stealth on heal but losing the 33% damage reduction and stealth on steal seems like a nerf.

On the contrary, I find stealth on steal extremely disruptive, because it prevent you from being able to precast a stealth attack and then steal midcast to guarantee landing it. (Idk why this happens tbh)

I am very much looking forward to stealth on heal because it allows you to disengage and sustain with withdraw every 18 seconds and then imidiately reapply pressure with a stealth attack. Seems really good for duelist builds.

Yeah, I can see both sides here when it comes to the steal = stealth thing. It annoys me sometimes when playing rifle, in other cases it's invaluable. On DE it's pretty great for trolling mesmers as you can stealth repeatedly by marking clones and spamming dancing dagger to kill the clone and damage the mesmer indirectly, can force cooldowns without committing and is much safer than going for a cloak and dagger on a clone. This was mostly useful vs condi mesmers, now with those traits in the same tier it won't work so well.