What's Wrong With Healing In Shroud?

[Zex Anthon.8673]

I don't understand why Anet believes healing in Shroud is such a sin. Necro has limited access to sustain and damage mitigation as is, which largely relies on facetanking any damage with Shroud, and they are removing what little sustain we have by taking the healing away from soul eater in shroud.

"...the Soul Eater trait is providing a little too much survivability, so we're removing the ability for this trait to heal while in a shroud."

In what mode was this trait giving "too much" survivability? It can hardly be considered good sustain in PvP and is meaningless in raid content. The only game modes where it is overperforming is open world PvE and WvW where multi targets and large health pools allows the Necro to essentially heal to full with one skill. This could have been solved by capping the heal instead of removing it entirely.

More on point. The Necro playstyle, as it stands, relies heavily on intelligent use of Shroud and life force. Knowing when to pop in and out of Shroud to conserve life force and soak up damage is essential to survival. Unlike other classes necros defense is tied to a resource. The Necro is vulnerable while they have to build up enough life force to even use their defense. Shroud is also inferior to other forms of damage mitigation, blocks and evades nullify incoming damage and cc whereas Shroud and barrier can be overwhelmed with enough damage.

Why is it so bad to allow healing in Shroud? A druid can heal their teamates while they are blocking/evading. There are skills that provide healing while also blocking/evading attacks. Many classes have access to high sustain traits while also having access to blocks/evades. Do those traits get turned off while they are blocking/evading? No. So why is healing in shroud "too much survivability" when we already know shroud as a defense is inferior.

You may argue that shroud provides superior offensive capabilities in conjunction with its defense. However, this simply isn't true when compared with the amount of damage skills with blocks/evades tied to them. Just look at warriors and revanents with how much damage they can output while simultaneously evading attacks.

A part of what makes Necro fun is the balancing act of maintaining life force and health points. While building life force you are losing health. And while spending life force you can replenish that health with select traits. Necro needs more traits like soul eater. Buff blighters boon. Rework parasitic contagion. Add more life steal. Necro will always have the weaknesses of being vulnerable between shroud cooldowns and running out of life force. These are more than enough to offset any survivability gained from healing in shroud.

[Lahmia.2193]

As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

This would fit way more theme as well

[Lahmia.2193]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

Could keep the range on healing, since wells/nightfall can still hit outside of 300 when in shroud. But straight up +10% damage would be nice for those axe moments that require you to be further away.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

I think a good model for many Necro traits is Blighters Boon. Gain life force while out of shroud, and gain healing while in shroud. Unfortunately, reaper is too dependant on reaper's onslaught to even consider any of the other grandmaster traits.

I would be happy with the current change if they reworked Blighters Boon to replace the effect. It's more fitting of a grandmaster trait anyway. Have BB heal 5% of damage in shroud and gain 5% as life force out of shroud. Maybe then it would be worth taking over onslaught.

Soul eater could get the GS CD reduction back and damage modifier, and that would be plenty for a master trait.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

ppl were killing ambients for insane healingnot sure if the change was directed at that or not, idk

[hash.8462]

Well, I suppose a lot of players will go back to Decimate Defenses...

[ZDragon.3046]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

I think a good model for many Necro traits is Blighters Boon. Gain life force while out of shroud, and gain healing while in shroud. Unfortunately, reaper is too dependant on reaper's onslaught to even consider any of the other grandmaster traits.

This is where Reapers onslaught i think needs a QoL nerf which i keep expecting to see. i was almost sure we would see it over a soul eater nerf.

Simply something like >Making the base reaper shroud faster but not quickness level fast maybe roughly 33% faster down from the quickness 50% fasterMaking reapers onslaught do something else perhaps grant bonus movement speed while in shroud or modifying one of the 5 reaper shroud skills for a new one when its slotted instead of pulsing quickness.

I would be happy with the current change if they reworked Blighters Boon to replace the effect. It's more fitting of a grandmaster trait anyway. Have BB heal 5% of damage in shroud and gain 5% as life force out of shroud. Maybe then it would be worth taking over onslaught.

Yeah reaper is in a odd spot mechanically with its traits now that they have shifted this change. Im debaiting on going back to DD over soul eater but still dropping a 10% damage increase at 300 range is still hard when reaper is already backed to the wall for its dps i guess.

Even if we look at chilling victory at the moment its kind of not even comparable at the moment to soul eater or DD It might be comparable to soul eater if you combine it with blighters boon but still thats only when its stacked with a grand master alone its purpose is not very useful or noticeable. But then this also leads back to the lack of chill that reaper can put out now without going for something like chilling darkness + ice runes or and frost nova sigils or something.

So many cuts over time is making this a messy bag and just when i thought reaper was in a ok spot they announce this change.

Soul eater could get the GS CD reduction back and damage modifier, and that would be plenty for a master trait.I also agree with this too possibly

[Sigmoid.7082]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

The problem with that is that it's then almost the same trait as blighters boon.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

What baffles me is the amount of people who still believe a "second health bar" is somehow better than blocks, evades, stealth, etc. And that it justifies constant nerfs to Necro.

No other class has to build up a resource before they can put up their defenses. No other class has a majority of their damage locked behind the same resource. Other classes are limited by cooldowns on defensive skills which they can chain together to bridge the gaps. Necro has to deal with the same cool downs on shroud except they have no other defenses to cover them while shroud is on cooldowns, leaving them completely vulnerable.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:What baffles me is the amount of people who still believe a "second health bar" is somehow better than blocks, evades, stealth, etc. And that it justifies constant nerfs to Necro.

No other class has to build up a resource before they can put up their defenses. No other class has a majority of their damage locked behind the same resource. Other classes are limited by cooldowns on defensive skills which they can chain together to bridge the gaps. Necro has to deal with the same cool downs on shroud except they have no other defenses to cover them while shroud is on cooldowns, leaving them completely vulnerable.

That and the "secondary health bar" degrades own it's own and with damage. The people that think it is decent sustain are peeps that dont play necro and arenet lol

[brittanymashe.7049]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:What baffles me is the amount of people who still believe a "second health bar" is somehow better than blocks, evades, stealth, etc. And that it justifies constant nerfs to Necro.

No other class has to build up a resource before they can put up their defenses. No other class has a majority of their damage locked behind the same resource. Other classes are limited by cooldowns on defensive skills which they can chain together to bridge the gaps. Necro has to deal with the same cool downs on shroud except they have no other defenses to cover them while shroud is on cooldowns, leaving them completely vulnerable.

That and the "secondary health bar" degrades own it's own and with damage. The people that think it is decent sustain are peeps that dont play necro and arenet lol

This. Pfft. Decent sustain. I want to see where they think we have decent sustain in PVP.

I'm waiting.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@brittanymashe.7049 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:What baffles me is the amount of people who still believe a "second health bar" is somehow better than blocks, evades, stealth, etc. And that it justifies constant nerfs to Necro.

No other class has to build up a resource before they can put up their defenses. No other class has a majority of their damage locked behind the same resource. Other classes are limited by cooldowns on defensive skills which they can chain together to bridge the gaps. Necro has to deal with the same cool downs on shroud except they have no other defenses to cover them while shroud is on cooldowns, leaving them completely vulnerable.

That and the "secondary health bar" degrades own it's own and with damage. The people that think it is decent sustain are peeps that dont play necro and arenet lol

This. Pfft. Decent sustain. I want to see where they think we have decent sustain in PVP.

I'm waiting.

Well they obviously somehow think death shroud give decent sustain in pvp lmao

[Kuulpb.5412]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

The problem with that is that it's then almost the same trait as blighters boon.

I personally do not think [+Damage and + heal when you do damage in shroud] is the same as [Heal/Gain life Force when you apply a boon]

[Kuulpb.5412]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@brittanymashe.7049 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:What baffles me is the amount of people who still believe a "second health bar" is somehow better than blocks, evades, stealth, etc. And that it justifies constant nerfs to Necro.

No other class has to build up a resource before they can put up their defenses. No other class has a majority of their damage locked behind the same resource. Other classes are limited by cooldowns on defensive skills which they can chain together to bridge the gaps. Necro has to deal with the same cool downs on shroud except they have no other defenses to cover them while shroud is on cooldowns, leaving them completely vulnerable.

That and the "secondary health bar" degrades own it's own and with damage. The people that think it is decent sustain are peeps that dont play necro and arenet lol

This. Pfft. Decent sustain. I want to see where they think we have decent sustain in PVP.

I'm waiting.

Well they obviously somehow think death shroud give decent sustain in pvp lmao

Ah yes, the Niche of sustain in MELEE RANGE, with all of these RANGED ENEMIES who can teleport.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:As crazy as it sounds, I would rather they removed the healing it grants when outside of shroud, if they have to nerf it that is.

To be honest i would agree that this would have been an arguably better way to handle that changeKeep the healing while in shroud and remove it while out of it.

and at that point you could possibly remove the range limiter all together10% damage at all times5% damage to healing while in shroud only which is going to be within 300 range or less anyways.

The problem with that is that it's then almost the same trait as blighters boon.

Thats not the same at all. I think you might not be understanding the traits properly and the idea he suggested

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Blighter's boon is only really useful if you also take spite, and it has to compete with reaper's onslaught. You could get more healing out of soul eater than you could with blighters boon without sacrificing dps. That right there tells me that its more fitting to be a grandmaster trait than blighters boon is.

If BB did what soul eater does now, except only healing in shroud while only generating life force outside of shroud, then I could see it being used over reaper's onslaught. I think some QoL nerfs to reaper's onslaught as suggested earlier would be a healthy change for the reaper. As @ZDragon.3046 suggested, increasing the baseline attack speed of reaper skills across the board and removing quickness from reaper's onslaught would be enough to bring it in line, and reaper can finally take other traits without attacking at a snails pace. The ferocity and cool down reduction from auto attacking are still worthy of grandmaster level.

[mulzi.8273]

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:What baffles me is the amount of people who still believe a "second health bar" is somehow better than blocks, evades, stealth, etc. And that it justifies constant nerfs to Necro.

No other class has to build up a resource before they can put up their defenses. No other class has a majority of their damage locked behind the same resource. Other classes are limited by cooldowns on defensive skills which they can chain together to bridge the gaps. Necro has to deal with the same cool downs on shroud except they have no other defenses to cover them while shroud is on cooldowns, leaving them completely vulnerable.

Agreed. Although what really baffles me, as a WvW player, that 98% of all necros are scourges and they nerf Reapers for being too strong?

[KrHome.1920]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ppl were killing ambients for insane healingnot sure if the change was directed at that or not, idkThat's a 2012 design issue. They forgot to give ambient creatures some stats. This can be fixed easily and already has been fixed in PoF.

PoF map ambient creatures have normal armor values. So you deal normal damage numbers to them.

Try it out!

@mulzi.8273 said:Although what really baffles me, as a WvW player, that 98% of all necros are scourges and they nerf Reapers for being too strong?

They balance on the basis of pvp class presence and win statistics. Reaper seems to have done too well in the last 3 months.

Unfortunately they never answered the question whether they balance around platinum or bronze or a bit of everything.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:Blighter's boonBlighter's Boon has always been bad and useless if spite, chilling victory and might sigil were not picked to create boons. A grandmaster trait should be useful on its own.

This trait needs and has always needed a rework.

And seriously, Deathly Chill is a joke of a gm trait. That trait could be a minor trait as well in its current pvp/wvw form.

Before touching Onslaught the other two traits need to be fixed.

[KrHome.1920]

doublepost

[ZDragon.3046]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:ppl were killing ambients for insane healingnot sure if the change was directed at that or not, idkThat's a 2012 design issue. They forgot to give ambient creatures some stats. This can be fixed easily and already has been fixed in PoF.

PoF map ambient creatures have normal armor values. So you deal normal damage numbers to them.

Try it out!

Thats not a real issue lol Its not like thats gonna be a thing happening 24/7 and even so in pve it open world it shouldnt matter. Futher more why not fix the issue then nerf the trait that would make the most sense.

@mulzi.8273 said:Although what really baffles me, as a WvW player, that 98% of all necros are scourges and they nerf Reapers for being too strong?

They balance on the basis of pvp class presence and win statistics. Reaper seems to have done too well in the last 3 months.

Unfortunately they never answered the question whether they balance around platinum or bronze or a bit of everything.

Because they probably dont balance around either one of those. They likely do it by wvw and or pve

The soul eater nerf is likely directly targeted at or from pveIF the balanced was 100% based around pvp we wouldnt likely see chaotic interruption mesmers of any kinds, sage mantras firebrand, one shot revs, and static charge holos getting the nerfs. Ideally at least some of the things that currently rule the meta wouldnt continue to rule said meta. But with these changes i dont see anything thats currently at the top charts moving off the top charts

Reaper was doing well before the Soul eater change lets get that right. Reaper has been doing solid ever sense the Reapers onslaught change basically and thats just facts. Soul eaters effectiveness in pvp is marginal if not sub par. The healing obtained from it is not noticeable for me... its arguably no better than blood magic healing if only slightly in pvp. Which is why i dont get why its being changed that said in pve the trait can be strong on a cluster of mobs but only in that situation. Its healing not very strong against a single target even in pve especially if you are not in shroudAll they needed to do to cut it back slightly was reduce healing from the trait by like 33% in shroud.

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:Blighter's boonBlighter's Boon has always been bad and useless if spite, chilling victory and might sigil were not picked to create boons. A grandmaster trait should be useful on its own.

This trait needs and has always needed a rework.

And seriously, Deathly Chill is a joke of a gm trait. That trait could be a minor trait as well in its current pvp/wvw form.

Before touching Onslaught the other two traits need to be fixed.

What in the world are you talking about?Blighters boon is actually one of the best shroud traits in the game when matched with spite. It provides effective function in and out of shroud. It was the pvp power option of choice before Reapers onslaught quickness out classed it. Even now if you know how to set it up it can provide alot of healing and life force.If anet does a quality of life nerf to Reapers Onslaught and removes the quickness from it and just makes the base reaper shroud faster in attacking speed say 33% faster down from the 50% that quickness gives.People will flood back to blighters boon. The main reason people take Reapers onslaught in pvp right now is because more often than not the base reaper shroud feels far too slow to the rest of the meta it also makes bursting better not for the extra critical damage but for the speed at which the damage is applied. In this meta everything needs to kill quick if not instantly and i kind of hate it to some extent. Reaper without that attacking speed is at a big handicap to other professions that kill you in a second or two.

The only good thing about using blighters boon right now is that the first time you fight some one you may catch them off guard with how slow your attacks are. People have grown far too use to quickness reaper and often dodge critical skills like soul spiral and executioners scythe far too early resulting in them taking the damage that they normally would have evaded.

Blighters boon is 100% NOT the trait that needs to change. That would be "Chilliing Victory" and possibly "Deathly Chill" if anything maybe even the shout trait