Guardian Balance Changes Discussion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Guardian Balance Changes Discussion

Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭

Guardian
For guardians, some power from various trait lines is being shifted around in order to create better tiered trait options. The Retribution trait in the Radiance line had a lot of power and was crowding out other options. We're transferring this power over to the Zeal line, along with a few other trait reworks to make that type of damage bonus more reliable. While most symbols will become more powerful as a result of these changes, we're taking special care with Symbol of Punishment due to its low recharge. For this symbol, we have reduced the damage of the extra strikes rather than the symbol itself, as they cause the skill to have unpredictable damage based on the size of the target. Overall, these two changes net a small enhancement to the skill. Additionally, we are tuning up a few dragonhunter skills and traits to both improve their use cases and clarify their descriptions.

Spear of Light: This skill now scales damage dynamically based on distance rather than using distance thresholds.
Leap of Faith: This skill now heals you for each foe hit in addition to its previous effects.
Deflecting Shot: This skill no longer deals bonus damage if a missile is reflected. Increased base damage by 80%.
Symbol of Energy: Increased projectile speed by 25%.
Symbolic Avenger: This trait has been reworked. It now increases the guardian's damage by 2% stacking (max 5 stacks) for 15 seconds whenever a symbol hits a foe.
Symbolic Power: Increased the symbol damage from 10% to 30%. This trait no longer has a chance to inflict burning. Instead it causes symbols to charge your Justice passive effect twice as fast.
Symbol of Punishment: Lowered the damage of extra strikes by 25% in PvE.
Symbolic Exposure: This trait now increases damage to vulnerable foes by 5% in addition to its previous effects.
Protective Reviver: Fixed a bug that caused this trait to not increase revive speed.
Zealous Blade: This trait no longer heals when combined with a light field or grants 10% bonus damage when wielding a greatsword. Instead it grants +120 power plus an additional +120 power while wielding a greatsword in addition to reducing greatsword skill recharge by 20%.
Eternal Armory: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2.
Retribution: This trait no longer grants bonus ferocity.
Radiant Power: This trait now grants +150 ferocity.
Pure of Sight: This trait now scales dynamically based on distance from the target. Scaling has been adjusted from 5% to 15%.
Spear of Justice: This skill has been updated so the tether aspect doesn't fail against world bosses as frequently.

Comments

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    Lmfao.... Oh my god. Idk why I get my hopes up. Pitiful update for Guardian, again. Worth noting I'm speaking of PvP.

    Other classes getting nerfed though... indirect buff like @Derm.4932 mentioned below me

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭

    [PvP] IMO Guardian made off decently well in this balance patch. GS core guard got buffed with an extra 150 ferocity on Radiant Power and heal on Leap of Faith(although they didn't mention how much LoF will heal). The change to Deflecting Shot was a great change since it was unreliable/buggy as a projectile block - now LB will do more damage overall which was definitely needed. Symbol of Energy is a good change, but relatively minor. Pure of Sight changes seem like a sidegrade. I wonder if new Zeal/Honor/FB builds will arise due to the big buff on Symbolic Power, although I can't say I'm a fan of that type of symbol spam gameplay.

    More importantly Soulbeast unblockables got hit HARD. Unstoppable Union no longer has unblockable and Call of the Wild/Clarion Bond were changed from duration based to number of attacks + duration. This should help DH a lot since Soulbeast was always a brick wall hard counter for it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    Hey all ... remember when I called more changes in Radiance because of crits and relation to retal?? I do ... Convinced yet?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Hey all ... remember when I called more changes in Radiance because of crits and relation to retal?? I do ... Convinced yet?

    Are the changes buffs for pve/pvp?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    They don't appear to be split changes, not at least from what I can tell from the notes provided.

    here is a confusing one to me:

    Symbolic Power: I don't understand how Justice passive 'charges' twice as fast ... it's not a time based application, it's based on # of hits. Also, how does Anet cut '5' in half? Will it trigger on 3 hits? What about if you have Permeating Wrath going? Not clear to me.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This patch was a huge buff for guardians lol

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    Overall, seems like tiny buffs, but nothing significant. Doesn't do much to counteract all that guard has lost in the last few sets of balancing patches and i doubt it will make guard viable in PVP again.

    A bit of ferocity over crit chance is a wash. A bunch of symbol traits that will likely still be sub par to the other choices for most environments. Leap heal replacing on-hit heal with GS (i'll miss the on-hit for gorse and fractals, it ended up being a lot of healing). 240 power is probably going to end up being equivalent to 10% damage, but the increase when using other weapons will be nice.

    I'll be interested to see if the raid build for guard goes up in dps. I could see dropping RI due to the ease of capping crit and might. Not sure how much you have to trade to get back to 100% crit without RI or Radiant Power.

    I'm guessing that each hit will count as two for justice passive charge. When you hit 5, it would wrap to triggering plus 1 to the counter for the next 5.

  • Adamixos.6785Adamixos.6785 Member ✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    I will say it tho. The DH traitline needs to become a more than viable alternative to Valor - so that it can be used with zeal/radiance and virtues together in PvP. Honestly, it's a shame that the only semi-viable pvp build for DH relies on meditations.

  • Ragnarox.9601Ragnarox.9601 Member ✭✭✭

    no buffs to spirit weapons and sigils? me disappointed. Again, they have no clue about balancing and real problems of guardians.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Ragnarox.9601 said:
    no buffs to spirit weapons and sigils? me disappointed. Again, they have no clue about balancing and real problems of guardians.

    Sword of justice were buff through trait, inflicting 2 stacks of burning, so from 4 to 8 stacks.
    For other spirit weapons, nothing.

  • TheAgedGnome.7520TheAgedGnome.7520 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Ragnarox.9601 said:
    no buffs to spirit weapons and sigils? me disappointed. Again, they have no clue about balancing and real problems of guardians.

    Sword of justice were buff through trait, inflicting 2 stacks of burning, so from 4 to 8 stacks.
    For other spirit weapons, nothing.

    Eternal Armory: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2 should improve all spirit weapons except Bow.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Ragnarox.9601 said:
    no buffs to spirit weapons and sigils? me disappointed. Again, they have no clue about balancing and real problems of guardians.

    Sword of justice were buff through trait, inflicting 2 stacks of burning, so from 4 to 8 stacks.
    For other spirit weapons, nothing.

    Eternal Armory: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2 should improve all spirit weapons except Bow.

    Sure it will. But I didn't mention it because others just do one hit. While sword gains 4 new stacks, others get one. Plus sword can hit 5 targets, it is just that good, potential of 40 burn stacks with one utility.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They don't appear to be split changes, not at least from what I can tell from the notes provided.

    here is a confusing one to me:

    Symbolic Power: I don't understand how Justice passive 'charges' twice as fast ... it's not a time based application, it's based on # of hits. Also, how does Anet cut '5' in half? Will it trigger on 3 hits? What about if you have Permeating Wrath going? Not clear to me.

    It seems that Symbolic Power will count as 2 hits from symbols, with the counter wrapping around to the next iteration when it goes over. So 3 hits from Symbolic Powered symbols for Justice to proc, with the next proc in 2 symbol hits. If you have Permeating Wrath traited it will be 2 and then 1 hit from a symbol to proc. Coupled with Eternal Armory, Guards just got a big boost to the number of burn stacks they can output. I might have to switch my FotM character from my warrior to my guardian now...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They don't appear to be split changes, not at least from what I can tell from the notes provided.

    here is a confusing one to me:

    Symbolic Power: I don't understand how Justice passive 'charges' twice as fast ... it's not a time based application, it's based on # of hits. Also, how does Anet cut '5' in half? Will it trigger on 3 hits? What about if you have Permeating Wrath going? Not clear to me.

    They will either round up or down. So, probably 3/2 or 2/1 split with Symbolic Power/Symbolic Power+Permeating Wrath. Guards just got a boost to the number of burn stacks they can output.

    That's a big fear actually ... Hammer is ALREADY too heavily loaded on it's auto ... now we can get lots of burning stacks from it too?

    Dear Anet ... fix your kitten Guardian Hammer symbol.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They don't appear to be split changes, not at least from what I can tell from the notes provided.

    here is a confusing one to me:

    Symbolic Power: I don't understand how Justice passive 'charges' twice as fast ... it's not a time based application, it's based on # of hits. Also, how does Anet cut '5' in half? Will it trigger on 3 hits? What about if you have Permeating Wrath going? Not clear to me.

    They will either round up or down. So, probably 3/2 or 2/1 split with Symbolic Power/Symbolic Power+Permeating Wrath. Guards just got a boost to the number of burn stacks they can output.

    That's a big fear actually ... Hammer is ALREADY too heavily loaded on it's auto ... now we can get lots of burning stacks from it too?

    Dear Anet ... fix your kitten Guardian Hammer symbol.

    Well, Guard hammer is the best AA in the game :wink: The rest of it sucks though... I'd be interested in seeing how many burn stacks a hammer can generate with these changes relative to sword, GS, and scepter.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just scanned quickly, this seems like a nerf in PvP. Some damage shifted to symbols, 5% damage to targets with vulnerablity, this stuff does not work reliably in PvP. they also removed GS healing. That was the only sustain zeal line offered. DH changes, are change for the sake of change. They should have no impact. FB was not touched, LMAO.

    Overall, it is a reshuffling of damage between radiance and zeal, with slight nerf to sustainability. Zero impact in PvE and nerf in PvP. This continues Anet trend of clueless changes.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    I just scanned quickly, this seems like a nerf in PvP. Some damage shifted to symbols, 5% damage to targets with vulnerablity, this stuff does not work reliably in PvP. they also removed GS healing. That was the only sustain zeal line offered. DH changes, are change for the sake of change. They should have no impact. FB was not touched, LMAO.

    Overall, it is a reshuffling of damage between radiance and zeal, with slight nerf to sustainability. Zero impact in PvE and nerf in PvP. This continues Anet trend of clueless changes.

    Nobody uses Zeal in PvP so it's actually a buff. You get a free heal!
    Remains to be seen whether it's actually a useful amount though.

  • Darknicrofia.2604Darknicrofia.2604 Member ✭✭✭

    Seems like another season of trouting out bunker FB to bounce between Plat 1 and Plat 2

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    I just scanned quickly, this seems like a nerf in PvP. Some damage shifted to symbols, 5% damage to targets with vulnerablity, this stuff does not work reliably in PvP. they also removed GS healing. That was the only sustain zeal line offered. DH changes, are change for the sake of change. They should have no impact. FB was not touched, LMAO.

    Overall, it is a reshuffling of damage between radiance and zeal, with slight nerf to sustainability. Zero impact in PvE and nerf in PvP. This continues Anet trend of clueless changes.

    Nobody uses Zeal in PvP so it's actually a buff. You get a free heal!
    Remains to be seen whether it's actually a useful amount though.

    I have been playing Zeal/radiance/valor in sPvP for at least a year now. It is not as common as virtues variant. And I took it to P2 after the nerf of RI. I think it was as viable virtues. Regardless, this is all in the past now..

    Anyway, looking at the details in more depth:

    1. Radiance as a line is still locked into the same traits, contrary to what Anet thinks that they created "options." Same for Zeal.
    2. Zeal does more damage. Symbols deal more damage. 5% damage to targets with vulnerability, should be more damage than 100 ferocity lost from retribution.
    3. As far as I can tell, DH meta PvE power should deal slightly more damage.
    4. The power variance between GS and everything else, is reduced a bit. Same goes for using torch in power build.
    5. We could see a PvE variant of condi build using zeal instead of radiance or virtues with FB, relying on internal armory for burning. I still think FB/virtues/radiance will lead, but the margin will be smaller. Core condi will be slightly better, but should remain not competitive.
    6. sPvP wise, thinking about it again, symbolic avenger is probably more reliable now, in terms for damage bonus. The rest is around the same. Loss of heal surely does not help a build that has sustain issues. Overall, core guardian, is slightly better off damage wise with zeal/radiance/honor. In no way though, it would be sPvP meta. Virtues/radiance/valor lost 100 ferocity. So.. Update on this, I just noticed leap of faith heals. Will see how that works out.
    7. As for DH, I think the changes might add WvW viability. sPvP wise, changes are nearly useless. Maybe 60 patches later it will be viable.

    Overall, if we take guardian as a whole. FB had zero changes and support will continue to be over performing in PvP. DH will remain no PvP viable. Core also remains not sPvP viable, with virtues being slightly worse-off and zeal slightly better. I personally judge changes on 3 criteria: 1) did it create new builds, 2) did it make nonviable builds/weapons viable, 3) did it tone down an over performing build. The zeal changes could open the door to a PvE condi build variant. Otherwise, the changes have little to no impact. I would give Anet a C.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    Again, their idea of giving us "trait options" has fallen flat on its face. People will still pick the very same traits they did before since only thing Anet did is reshuffle modifiers.
    I'm not sure how this changes anything for either PvP or PvE when we are talking about selected traits.

    It seems that symbols are going to be slightly stronger which is probably going to translate into slight buff for PvE but probably wont be anything significant for PvP.
    Condi builds will probably see decent increase in damage, while pDps will have some spillover effect from faster burning procs.

    Overall, nothing game changing in my opinion

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They don't appear to be split changes, not at least from what I can tell from the notes provided.

    here is a confusing one to me:

    Symbolic Power: I don't understand how Justice passive 'charges' twice as fast ... it's not a time based application, it's based on # of hits. Also, how does Anet cut '5' in half? Will it trigger on 3 hits? What about if you have Permeating Wrath going? Not clear to me.

    This not unlike the change that they did to Amplified Wrath where their was a 20% increase to burning duration they alot of people thought was to all burning but was actually only to the burning from the passive from the Justice virtue (very underwhelming particularly when viewed against what was lost) and here this leaves us wondering how can they implement this or is this just a total case of mix up on the notes

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Again, their idea of giving us "trait options" has fallen flat on its face. People will still pick the very same traits they did before since only thing Anet did is reshuffle modifiers.
    I'm not sure how this changes anything for either PvP or PvE when we are talking about selected traits.

    It seems that symbols are going to be slightly stronger which is probably going to translate into slight buff for PvE but probably wont be anything significant for PvP.
    Condi builds will probably see decent increase in damage, while pDps will have some spillover effect from faster burning procs.

    Overall, nothing game changing in my opinion

    Ya man. This is the third patch now Anet says they made a change saying it is to open "choices," yet no one will choose the other traits over the currently used ones. This does not even require deep understanding of the class. Just by reading the traits, it is very clear which ones to be used, with which build and why. Forget Anet not understanding why specific traits are mandatory. Do they even read :/

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Random thought: Do the extra strikes on symbol of punishment count as a strike from the symbol? If so then Symbolic Power + Permeating Wrath on scepter just got real powerful.

  • Matias.1560Matias.1560 Member ✭✭

    Hope lost in the Meta sPvP :'(

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

  • Hagion.1086Hagion.1086 Member ✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

    100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

  • @Derm.4932 said:

    Guardian
    The Retribution trait in the Radiance line had a lot of power and was crowding out other options. We're transferring this power over to the Zeal line, along with a few other trait reworks to make that type of damage bonus more reliable.

    >

    Did I miss the replacement trait for Retribution in the Radiance line? I am not sure how a removing the only viable Power DPS trait in that tier 'opens more options'. Will it swap with a current Zeal trait?

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    @Hagion.1086 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

    100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

    Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

    They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svaalls.4328 said:

    @Derm.4932 said:

    Guardian
    The Retribution trait in the Radiance line had a lot of power and was crowding out other options. We're transferring this power over to the Zeal line, along with a few other trait reworks to make that type of damage bonus more reliable.

    >

    Did I miss the replacement trait for Retribution in the Radiance line? I am not sure how a removing the only viable Power DPS trait in that tier 'opens more options'. Will it swap with a current Zeal trait?

    Retribution would still provide 10% damage. The 250 ferocity is removed from that trait. 150 ferocity is now added to radiance grand master minor. So radiance over all lost 100 ferocity. Zeal gain 5% damage, also as grand master minor. Also. Symbols will deal about 17-18% more damage. Damage in PvE should be slightly higher. SPvP if you use zeal/radiance/valor damage should be a around 10-15% higher.

  • All I see here is buffs for my core condi guard ~~

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    typical meh guard changes.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    Its a buff
    If the enemy is stupid enough to stand in your symbols

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like that they splitted the potency a bit and improvements on zeals is nice too.
    For competitive modes it is more an area control balance patch. For PvE it's a dmg buff.
    DH got atleast something and FB didn't get nerfed.
    The spirit weapon trait should be reworked though although the buff is nice.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Hagion.1086 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

    100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

    Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

    They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

    Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Derm.4932 said:

    Guardian

    Spear of Light: This skill now scales damage dynamically based on distance rather than using distance thresholds.

    Leap of Faith: This skill now heals you for each foe hit in addition to its previous effects.

    Still too easy to interrupt, not to mention LoF is mostly used as a tool to get out, not push-in.

    Deflecting Shot: This skill no longer deals bonus damage if a missile is reflected. Increased base damage by 80%.

    Not bad

    Symbol of Energy: Increased projectile speed by 25%.

    Cool? Symbols suck, can we please change the mechanics behind them?(Talking spvp/wvw mostly)

    Symbolic Avenger: This trait has been reworked. It now increases the guardian's damage by 2% stacking (max 5 stacks) for 15 seconds whenever a symbol hits a foe.

    This is actually a decent nerf, instead of receiving an immediate dmg increase with some power conversion, you may only get a few stacks. This traitline(zeal) was never utilized anyway, thanks for the nerf.

    Symbolic Power: Increased the symbol damage from 10% to 30%. This trait no longer has a chance to inflict burning. Instead it causes symbols to charge your Justice passive effect twice as fast.

    Good change

    Symbol of Punishment: Lowered the damage of extra strikes by 25% in PvE.

    Who cares about targets that are brain-dead and never move out of your symbols?

    Symbolic Exposure: This trait now increases damage to vulnerable foes by 5% in addition to its previous effects.

    Good change

    Protective Reviver: Fixed a bug that caused this trait to not increase revive speed.
    Zealous Blade: This trait no longer heals when combined with a light field or grants 10% bonus damage when wielding a greatsword. Instead it grants +120 power plus an additional +120 power while wielding a greatsword in addition to reducing greatsword skill recharge by 20%.

    So...why is this one of the few traits that only gets a cd reduction with power while say Warriors get both AND might on crit? Give me something interactive! Also, GS needs a rework, I've already went over my reasons but outside of WW(Which needs its projectiles removed and dmg meshed with just the physical aspect), the rest need a rework.

    Eternal Armory: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2.

    No one uses spirit weapons in spvp, cool

    Retribution: This trait no longer grants bonus ferocity.

    Oh awesome, another nerf to the somewhat only viable dmg trait-line while Guardians were already lacking BEFORE the nerfs in terms of dmg. Well done.

    Radiant Power: This trait now grants +150 ferocity.

    WHY move this? I don't get the idea behind this change?

    Pure of Sight: This trait now scales dynamically based on distance from the target. Scaling has been adjusted from 5% to 15%.

    Not enough for any self-respecting DH to consider playing it again

    Spear of Justice: This skill has been updated so the tether aspect doesn't fail against world bosses as frequently.

    Forgive me for all the negative comments but holy hell these are bad. Once again, let's focus on a mechanic that requires both caster and enemy to stand-in for lengthy periods of time for ANY benefit(symbols) in a game where mobility is HUGE! Great mechanic. Come on guys.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Ragnarox.9601 said:
    no buffs to spirit weapons and sigils? me disappointed. Again, they have no clue about balancing and real problems of guardians.

    Sword of justice were buff through trait, inflicting 2 stacks of burning, so from 4 to 8 stacks.
    For other spirit weapons, nothing.

    Eternal Armory: Increased burning stacks from 1 to 2 should improve all spirit weapons

    Wich is funny cause SoJ is basically trap on cast that can melt a target XD, bow needs better scale with healing power and condi removal besides blasting it’s light field.

    Shield needs better uptime

  • Hagion.1086Hagion.1086 Member ✭✭

    Plz ANET don't nerf GS Heal and toughness converted in power of symbolic avenger! 😥😫😭

  • TheAgedGnome.7520TheAgedGnome.7520 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hagion.1086 said:
    Plz ANET don't nerf GS Heal and toughness converted in power of symbolic avenger! 😥😫😭

    I think it was done because of the change to the minor trait "Symbolic Power: Increased the symbol damage from 10% to 30%." As a result, they turned SA into a trait that scales with the number of enemies. Might be a bit weak, especially as GM trait, but a 10% buff for up to 15 sec - with no gear requirements - seems pretty good.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    After testing:

    SPvP Zeal/radiance/valor, the damage increase is too small to be noticeable. The loss of all healing from GS is definitely noticeable, in a build that suffers in the sustainability dept. they removed the heal per Hit not only blasting light fields.

    There are no other possible new combinations using zeal or SoJ in PvP.

    PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

    Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

  • Hagion.1086Hagion.1086 Member ✭✭

    Removed heal per hit from GS...ok...so please increase max Hp from Guardian 😒

  • Edge.8724Edge.8724 Member ✭✭✭

    I miss the old zealous blade traits, which healed you for each attack with your greatsword.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

    Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

    Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

    Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

    Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

    Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

    Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

    Interesting. I guess zeal will be the new staple in condi builds.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

    Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

    Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

    Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

    Did you take into your tests aoe abilities provided by permea wrath?
    Or is it only about single target damage?
    If you play wvw, this difference does matter.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    PvE wise, zeal now has solid options for condi and hybrid builds. You can mix and match between FB, radiance, virtues and zeal. The meta raid build is still ahead but the margin is smaller.

    Overall, I like the zeal PvE changes for the condi side. They work. Nothing else does or matters.

    Hm, according to my testing Virtues is completely superceded by Zeal for all condi builds.

    Zeal/Radiance/FB is about 3-5k DPS ahead of Virtues/Radiance/FB, be it cQB, cFB etc.

    Did you take into your tests aoe abilities provided by permea wrath?
    Or is it only about single target damage?
    If you play wvw, this difference does matter.

    Speaking of PvE.

    The Zeal rotation relies heavily on Symbol uptime and won't be of any use in PvP or WvW.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Hagion.1086 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

    100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

    Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

    They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

    Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

    DH already outperforms Core DPS by at least 10% on a Golem, and that assumes the Core has Aegis up, otherwise it's a flat 30%. Now, technically, DH has been given a survivability boost over Core by the removal of the GS heal. Again, why? Was DH underplayed? Core too powerful? Id question anyone who agreed with either of those statements.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Hagion.1086 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

    100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

    Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

    They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

    Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

    DH already outperforms Core DPS by at least 10% on a Golem, and that assumes the Core has Aegis up, otherwise it's a flat 30%. Now, technically, DH has been given a survivability boost over Core by the removal of the GS heal. Again, why? Was DH underplayed? Core too powerful? Id question anyone who agreed with either of those statements.

    I won't say it is a suvivability boost to DH, since both used zeal in PvE anyway and both will lose on the sustain. However, it surely is a nerf to zeal/radiance/valor build in sPvP. After doing a bit of testing yesterday, I think the damage is about even before and after the patch in sPvP. Stronger potential but less consistent. The healing was the only source of sustain zeal offered. With it gone, and damage about the same, it is overall nerf in sPvP. The heal on leap of faith does not count cuz it cannot hit kitten, especially won't hit a group of enemies.

    Overall, condi/hybrid builds got buffs in PvE and better diversity, with zeal in the mix. Everything else is the same. Power builds are viable but cannot compete P2 and beyond. And of course, are not AT viable. It will remain FB only in PvP for.. I guess the next expansion, unless FB gets massively nerfed, which is more likely considering it is over performing and Anet does not fix kitten. Just nerf it out of viability.

    Unrelated, if core power to ever become PvE viable, Unscathed Contender must be changed from aegis to something else (retaliation makes most sense).

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Hagion.1086 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

    100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

    Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

    They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

    Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

    DH already outperforms Core DPS by at least 10% on a Golem, and that assumes the Core has Aegis up, otherwise it's a flat 30%. Now, technically, DH has been given a survivability boost over Core by the removal of the GS heal. Again, why? Was DH underplayed? Core too powerful? Id question anyone who agreed with either of those statements.

    I won't say it is a suvivability boost to DH, since both used zeal in PvE anyway and both will lose on the sustain. However, it surely is a nerf to zeal/radiance/valor build in sPvP. After doing a bit of testing yesterday, I think the damage is about even before and after the patch in sPvP. Stronger potential but less consistent. The healing was the only source of sustain zeal offered. With it gone, and damage about the same, it is overall nerf in sPvP. The heal on leap of faith does not count cuz it cannot hit kitten, especially won't hit a group of enemies.

    Overall, condi/hybrid builds got buffs in PvE and better diversity, with zeal in the mix. Everything else is the same. Power builds are viable but cannot compete P2 and beyond. And of course, are not AT viable. It will remain FB only in PvP for.. I guess the next expansion, unless FB gets massively nerfed, which is more likely considering it is over performing and Anet does not fix kitten. Just nerf it out of viability.

    Unrelated, if core power to ever become PvE viable, Unscathed Contender must be changed from aegis to something else (retaliation makes most sense).

    I should have been clearer. DH didn't get a boost as much as it was compensated by increasing the healing from F2 if you land on multiple targets. It's not the same thing, obv, but DH did gain a means of increased healing while Core/FB lost it.

    I agree with your last sentence, as even running with Retreat and x/Shield, Aegis isn't going to stay up since Chrono got gutted. I still prefer it over standard DH as it brings group utility from virtues and leaves me more wiggle room on the utility bar. But I highly doubt they would roll more benefit into retaliation, not without first making retaliation harder to sustain.

    Just don't understand a nerf to something nobody had/should have had a problem with.

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    PvP wise, nothing has changed. Guard is an outdated class that also suffers from incoherent traitlines.

    • This balance patch focused on symbol traits. But symbols DON'T work out of pve. Symbols are static, and the game has never been more dynamic. People are not stupid enough to remain inside a symbol, in the best case it will tick once before they sidestep it. Also, the big symbol trait is misplaced in a traitline it doesn't belong to.. Suggestion (which will need underlying balance): Make the symbols follow the guard. Or nerf everything that offers mobility, so that the game doesn't look like a swarm of people flying in all the directions.

    • Guards have the lowest health pool of the game while being the class with the lowest kiting options. The defenses skills that were making it work in 2012 are no longer relevant nowadays. The amount of CC in this game totally annihilates the stability output of the guard. The poor aegis and protection uptime (if build adequatly..) is nothing compared to the defense options of all the other classes. And the only mobility skills you can think off are just a way to get closer to the opponents.

    • The virtues suck. They suck very hard. An entire traitline has to be taken to make them okayish. All the other professions have better mechanics. It would be better if the stability/breakstun on F3, condi cleanse on F2 didn't require any trait. Some traits require you to activate the virtues, and others only work if the virtues are not on CD. That's stupid.

    • Most of the utility skills are garbage. Spirit weapons are garbage. Signets are garbage. Shouts are garbage. Consecration are garbage. Meditations are good if you decide to waste an entire traitline for this sole purpose. Because yes, the other "must take traits" in Valor traitline consist in a +100 toughness, and a trait that has been sneakily shoved to ground last patch.

    Between this balance patch and nothing tbh I would have chosen nothing.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Hagion.1086 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Why does it seem like ANET is of the belief that the only PVE power DPS build you can use is DH?
    Bad enough they culled RI, but now they removed some passive sustain from GS? Sure if you're a DH you get compensated a bit with changes to Leap, but we don't all choose to play DH. :/

    100% agree! Why they do that?? GS Heal hit sustain are great with my Crusader build..

    Also hurts GS Quickbrand both in Fractals and OW. I really want to know what they tried to "fix" here?

    They keep saying they want elites to have to live with trade offs, but in this patch as well as last one, they have weakened Core more than anything else. Just doesn't make sense.

    Probably because guardian, like necromancer, has always had tradeoffs: you give up the core virtues for the elite spec virtues. You might argue that it's not much of a tradeoff since you're not giving up a lot on the virtue actives, but the old guardian virtue actives being instantaneous can be beneficial in some circumstances, and they provide a lever through which core guardian can be balanced separately to dragonhunters and firebrands.

    DH already outperforms Core DPS by at least 10% on a Golem, and that assumes the Core has Aegis up, otherwise it's a flat 30%. Now, technically, DH has been given a survivability boost over Core by the removal of the GS heal. Again, why? Was DH underplayed? Core too powerful? Id question anyone who agreed with either of those statements.

    I won't say it is a suvivability boost to DH, since both used zeal in PvE anyway and both will lose on the sustain. However, it surely is a nerf to zeal/radiance/valor build in sPvP. After doing a bit of testing yesterday, I think the damage is about even before and after the patch in sPvP. Stronger potential but less consistent. The healing was the only source of sustain zeal offered. With it gone, and damage about the same, it is overall nerf in sPvP. The heal on leap of faith does not count cuz it cannot hit kitten, especially won't hit a group of enemies.

    Overall, condi/hybrid builds got buffs in PvE and better diversity, with zeal in the mix. Everything else is the same. Power builds are viable but cannot compete P2 and beyond. And of course, are not AT viable. It will remain FB only in PvP for.. I guess the next expansion, unless FB gets massively nerfed, which is more likely considering it is over performing and Anet does not fix kitten. Just nerf it out of viability.

    Unrelated, if core power to ever become PvE viable, Unscathed Contender must be changed from aegis to something else (retaliation makes most sense).

    I should have been clearer. DH didn't get a boost as much as it was compensated by increasing the healing from F2 if you land on multiple targets. It's not the same thing, obv, but DH did gain a means of increased healing while Core/FB lost it.

    I agree with your last sentence, as even running with Retreat and x/Shield, Aegis isn't going to stay up since Chrono got gutted. I still prefer it over standard DH as it brings group utility from virtues and leaves me more wiggle room on the utility bar. But I highly doubt they would roll more benefit into retaliation, not without first making retaliation harder to sustain.

    Just don't understand a nerf to something nobody had/should have had a problem with.

    Unrelated note guardian does close to no damage without damage multiplyers. Seriously. DH 30% damage between tether and cripple. Radiance 10% damage, 25% critic chance, 150 ferocity. Zeal 10% damage from symbolic avenger 5% to vulnerable targets. I do not think moving unscathed contender from aegis to retaliation is a big deal. Specially now, with division of damage between radiance and zeal. They can always reduce the mutiplyer from 20% to 10% and buff the extra damage per boon from 1% to 2%, for virtues grand master minor. I think this will be much better for build diversity, in PvE that is..

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