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Upcoming Engineer Balance Changes


Vagrant.7206

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@"santenal.1054" said:Now that the elite specs dont use the standard F5 skills anymore they can put stunbreaks on "Med Pack Drop" , "Toss Elixir X" and "Orbital Strike" to make core engi a class worth playing again.

Sorry for this-

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!

There, that's done and out of the way.

Having F5 skills isn't going to right everything that's wrong with core. It's the equivalent of having three children, and your paediatrician telling you that the mentally stunted one of the three is now on a more even footing because, in the interest of fairness, said doctor took the initiative of having the fingers removed from the two otherwise whole and healthy children. Hypothetically, and by all prevailing mores of our day, you'd still be expected to love all three equally, truth is you'd have three cripples rather than one to contend with.

None of the changes listed have made core engineer a more desirable spec to play. And apart from making rifle even worse, nothing's changed for core engineer- nothing for the better, rather in these notes. After reading them again I'd say these changes were crafted with a liberal amount of condescension and passive-aggressiveness thrown in, but that's giving Anet too much credit. As the old saying goes- 'never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity' -or in this case incompetence and indifference.

But every cloud, eh? At least there's no need this time for someone to glibly inquire, 'Where on the doll did the bad dev touch you?' It's all up there in writing. And if that's not the topper there's still fashion wars to enjoy.

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@"Iozeph.5617" said:Having F5 skills isn't going to right everything that's wrong with core.

Didn't you mean to write "Having STUNBREAKERS ON CORE F5 skills isn't going to right everything that's wrong with core." ? It seems like you did not understand what I wrote, because your ramblings were irrelivant to my comment.I also never said it would fix everything wrong with core, it's just a nice opportunity to buff core without buffing the elite specs, enabling quite a few players to be reasonably competitive with core builds that they enjoy playing. (not that I expect the devs to listen to my advice, they never have and they probably never will).

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@Dirame.8521 said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@Dirame.8521 said:The lightning field when combined with leap skills cause daze. At the right time, at the right moment in a PvP match YES, a .25s daze can make a difference. Trust me, you should see some of the clutch moments I have had the pleasure of recording, it is incredible how close some moments are.

Why do you do this? You see that I already explained how the lightning field works multiple times in the same post, so why go on? Did you actually read the post, or are you just being contentious? As for the 0.25 seconds making a difference... I don't believe you. Period. I think you're lying just to be difficult.

I noticed you explained a bit more after I read on into your post. That said. I am not lying. Answer me these question if you will; Would you say interrupting a stomp with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a heal with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a Firebrand about to use Signet of Mercy with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time?I rest my case.This "argument" of yours is completely off. The thing is that it doesn't give you any additional dazes that would indeed have the uses you elaborated on but the dazes you already do via combo finishers last 0.25s longer. A 0.75s daze instead of a 0.5s daze on using Hammer 3 in a lightning field (about the only reliable source of leaps you'll find on scrapper builds) won't give you any perceivable advantage.

The additional uptime of lightning fields means you have more access to said 'daze' combo instead of depending on the cooldown on your Hammer 5 for a lightning field.

I read nothing of lightning fields lasting longer. I only read finishers in lightning field being more effective. The trait is independent of the new F5 spawning a lightning field.There was no shortage of lightning fields in the first place with Bulwark Gyro and Shredder Gyro toolbelt also granting lightning fields.

More effective usually means longer duration based off of other traits with similar strange wording. But I meant more access as in, more lightening fields. And a lightning field which you don't have to press another button for after using your Function Gyro works better in situations to do with rezzing. It means less button presses on the long run.

Are you going to put all gyros in your bunker build?

I don't know what you guys use but the last thing I would use when playing Bunker Scrapper is 5 gyros.

The current bunker build in PvP runs up to 4 gyros, bulwark gyro always included. Shredder is rather niche but if you run mortar kit elite, it is somewhat viable with the whirl finisher spam.It is redundant anyway because if you trait it, the function gyro already dazes on cast.Also compare how the ele trait is worded as "Fire fields created by weapon skills last longer". Doubt this is an oversight.

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@"Mil.3562" said:

  1. Removal of ALL 4 Elite toolbelt skills
  2. Gyro Function has cool down time tripled and range cut by 300
  3. Rapid Regen being the bread and butter of healing and sustainability, gone.

It may not be as bad to those that that don't play healing Scrapper in WvW, but how is this better for those that do? A genuine question.

I do not remember how many times I had to change my Engineer over the past 6 years. I never had a consistent build that worked for longer than a few months, some became outdated shortly after I completed the gear. A lot of times I had to start from scratch. Engineer is not and never has been a consistent class to begin with. We received a lot of drastic balances in the past, let alone the entire "purity of purpose" scenario.

When I first heard of the Heal Scrapper, I was quite excited. An engineer form which was capable of healing properly, even in comparison to other healers like Druid or Guardian. The excitement cooled down once I realized that it relies almost completely on MDF and Rapid Regeneration. Sorry, but that is not a healer. You cannot play a healer with one skill. That is russian roulette, one tiny little modification to how RR works and the entire thing is dead.

Chronomancer got up from its ashes (the Fall of Signet of Inspiration) pretty quickly and is currently in a state where it is quite stable. I still remember the doomcryers predicting the END of the class, let alone the end of GW2. Raids unplayable, Fractals unplayable. Just because of one OP skill being balanced. Again, a class that does a good job because of one skill only is not a good class. Scrapper is a lot more than RR and MDF. It will be a difficult task, will probably take a while to find a new way, but I do not think it is impossible. Maybe we get a new option with later updates, maybe we find a rune/sigil synergy at some point to get even beyond the capabilities of the current Heal Scrapper one day. I cannot predict the future, but I know our community - the ones who play Engineer no matter if it is meta or not. We will find a way, as we always did.

-

The gyro changes are not for you and not for me obviously. Those of us who know how it works and frequently use it will see a nerf in this patch, as you have already pointed out. It can be compared to the infamous turret-patch we had a while ago. It will make the functionality easier to understand and use for new players. We will get a toolbelt slot for it, which will indicate a cooldown. It will be ground-target based, so we can deploy it to a certain location and see what it does.

They have never been huge fans of the Elite Profession topic.

"You start with Guardian/Warrior and once you are really really good in the game, you can try Elementalist or Engineer"

With the introduction of Holosmith, Engineer became a plug&play class. The turret-patch removed a very difficult part of Core Engineer. Your beloved Healing Turret combo still works, some claim it works even better than before the patch. With the Function Gyro changes, we will lose the odd view of players at our "class mechanic." If the changes work as intended, we can maybe consider it a class mechanic at last. Until today it is a gamble for most players. Many never use it at all.

-

I do not think this is the real end of Heal Scrapper or Heal Engineer in general. The med-kit got drastically improved over the past years. Same goes for our traits.

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Someone please help me understand some of the changes we will get. #1) We lose our barriers from Recovery Matrix, Decisive renowned, and Adaptive armor. (way to much nerf) Where are we getting our barriers from now? All I see is the barrier from is Impact Savant and Bulwark Gyro (nerfed). I have no idea how much we will get if any. The barriers were my only chance at a possible defense against a Scourge (stupid red rings of death) , Shatter Mesmer (condi nightmare), or a berserk Warriors mega damage (which is getting an increase in damage! smh!) . All of which had no nerfs on their ridiculous high damage attacks! #2) We are now as a scrapper, forced to use function gyro on F5. We lose the Detection pulse. Which was very useful sweeping keeps and towers. And aided the fight against Mesmers and Thieves and other Engi's. Why? Why take that useful tool away? It confuses me. What is the point in tying our hands with 1 f5 option (poop ton of recharge). When we had many others good skills to choose from. Plus we lose our group condi clear and heals in med pack drop. It's hard enough for a wvw group wanting us in their comp. And you take it away? Grrrr!! What positives as a scrapper, Have we gained? From our major loses in this update. if any. Not happy with your thought process on this Anet. Small changes are fine. But this is huge and unnecessary. IMHO.

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@"Warrior Xsr.1672" said:Where are we getting our barriers from now? All I see is the barrier from is Impact Savant and Bulwark Gyro (nerfed). I have no idea how much we will get if any.That's what the new trait giving you 15% barrier from "strikes" (whatever the heck that even means) is supposed to replace. Presumably only power damage.

TL;DR you loose everything that make you tanky and Anet wants you to tank by going full berserker.

As someone somewhere said: Anet want the new scrapper to be a Fractal hero, because kitten WvW/PvP. That's my takeaway from it.

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@"Iozeph.5617" said:

I understood what you'd writtenYou obviously didn't.and to be a bit more concise for you it just didn't/doesn't matter.You laughed at me without understanding what I wrote and now you basically tell me it doesn't mather that you were rude for no reason.

Core has access to plenty of stunbreakers without going anywhere near f5 skills to get them.Having acces to plenty of stunbreakers and effectivly slotting (enough of) them is quite different. having Stunbreakers on the F5 skills will give people some more wiggle room to decide what they are going to put in their 3 utility slots. (most likely in favor of damage output since the F5 skill would contribute more to the survivability of the build than before)

Core having more stun breaks just means you aren't stunned when they knock the stuffing out of you. Yay? Stunbreaks mean nothing if, once freed, you have nothing hard-hitting with which to apply pressure back at the enemy to back them off of you or even down them. That's where core is. It's "Running Away and Getting Shot In the Back For Your Trouble Simulator 2019."

The damage output of core engineer in general is really lacking, I think most know this already.

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@santenal.1054 said:

@"Iozeph.5617" said:

I understood what you'd writtenYou obviously didn't.and to be a bit more concise for you it just didn't/doesn't matter.You laughed at me without understanding what I wrote and now you basically tell me it doesn't mather that you were rude for no reason.

Core has access to plenty of stunbreakers without going anywhere near f5 skills to get them.Having acces to plenty of stunbreakers and effectivly slotting (enough of) them is quite different. having Stunbreakers on the F5 skills will give people some more wiggle room to decide what they are going to put in their 3 utility slots. (most likely in favor of damage output since the F5 skill would contribute more to the survivability of the build than before)

Core having more stun breaks just means you aren't stunned when they knock the stuffing out of you. Yay? Stunbreaks mean nothing if, once freed, you have nothing hard-hitting with which to apply pressure back at the enemy to back them off of you or even down them. That's where core is. It's "Running Away and Getting Shot In the Back For Your Trouble Simulator 2019."

The damage output of core engineer in general is really lacking, I think most know this already.

I understood, and I wasn't laughing at you at all. It's why I separated that from the rest of the post. I'm laughing at the situation in general. And I'm still laughing. It just doesn't deserve its own thread in this forum. Stop taking it so personal and try to find the humour in getting anything but what we ever ask for around here.

I'd say that happening with patches alone was worthy of turning into a drinking game but six months or longer between shots isn't a solid strategy for going blotto.

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@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:15% of outgoing strike damage converted to barrier

Is it ment to say critical strike damage?Probably, since that would not only force higher power builds (lets say... clerics might have been possible to run as a healbot for at least some barrier) but rather full zerker/marauder to get barrier.

Because if you want to gut something, its best to also twist a serrated blade.

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Ok, I'm the minority here because obviously this patch affects more WvW and PVP scrappers, but I kinda like the direction of these changes.The times I play PVP or WVW are on Scrapper, but I mostly do PVE.

For me the changes are obviously trying to align Scrapper into an Hybrid support role like Druid, Alacrigade or Quickbrand in PVE.They seem to be wanting to make Scrapper Stack Might, provide auras and tank by doing damage while also being able to heal others.It's either a Diviner or a Harrier build as an alternative to Druid in PVE imo. Which I kinda like, but for WvW I can see how horrible this will end up being.

What I will say though is that it's a huge rework, with a lot of moving parts and obviously things might not work out as well for every kind of player out there. I'd say we test it out, give feedback and wait for the next update where they will fine tune the aspects of the class that are not working so well. They've been doing it with Berserker and other classes they've been changing so I for one am hopeful with what's to come.

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I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

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im a bit skeptical of almost all of the changes, to say the least... but losing the oldest true counter to stealth gameplay is a travesty. its a solid skill thats always been in a good spot balance wise that gives a drop of real meaning to the metagame of class choice or group composition. stealth users have to develop strategies to manage it, and it makes scrappers a huge threat and excellent disruption to their typical juking strategies.

this is a big, weird, unnecessary step backwards.

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@Dirame.8521 said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@Dirame.8521 said:The lightning field when combined with leap skills cause daze. At the right time, at the right moment in a PvP match YES, a .25s daze can make a difference. Trust me, you should see some of the clutch moments I have had the pleasure of recording, it is incredible how close some moments are.

Why do you do this? You see that I already explained how the lightning field works multiple times in the same post, so why go on? Did you actually read the post, or are you just being contentious? As for the 0.25 seconds making a difference... I don't believe you. Period. I think you're lying just to be difficult.

I noticed you explained a bit more after I read on into your post. That said. I am not lying. Answer me these question if you will; Would you say interrupting a stomp with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a heal with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a Firebrand about to use Signet of Mercy with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time?I rest my case.This "argument" of yours is completely off. The thing is that it doesn't give you any additional dazes that would indeed have the uses you elaborated on but the dazes you already do via combo finishers last 0.25s longer. A 0.75s daze instead of a 0.5s daze on using Hammer 3 in a lightning field (about the only reliable source of leaps you'll find on scrapper builds) won't give you any perceivable advantage.

I don't know what you guys use but the last thing I would use when playing Bunker Scrapper is 5 gyros.

lol Orly? Do you pvp?Cause I run withMedicBulwarkPurgeBlastSneakWorks great. Do I need to explain why?I love the support of it. Someone want to give me a better support build for pvp, fire away.

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@DinoStone.2485 said:If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

Yes, yes, and yes and a thousand, million times more yes to this.

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@Dirame.8521 said:The lightning field when combined with leap skills cause daze. At the right time, at the right moment in a PvP match YES, a .25s daze can make a difference. Trust me, you should see some of the clutch moments I have had the pleasure of recording, it is incredible how close some moments are.

Why do you do this? You see that I already explained how the lightning field works multiple times in the same post, so why go on? Did you actually read the post, or are you just being contentious? As for the 0.25 seconds making a difference... I don't believe you. Period. I think you're lying just to be difficult.

I noticed you explained a bit more after I read on into your post. That said. I am not lying. Answer me these question if you will; Would you say interrupting a stomp with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a heal with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a Firebrand about to use Signet of Mercy with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time?I rest my case.This "argument" of yours is completely off. The thing is that it doesn't give you any additional dazes that would indeed have the uses you elaborated on but the dazes you already do via combo finishers last 0.25s longer. A 0.75s daze instead of a 0.5s daze on using Hammer 3 in a lightning field (about the only reliable source of leaps you'll find on scrapper builds) won't give you any perceivable advantage.

I don't know what you guys use but the last thing I would use when playing Bunker Scrapper is 5 gyros.

lol Orly? Do you pvp?Cause I run withMedicBulwarkPurgeBlastSneakWorks great. Do I need to explain why?I love the support of it. Someone want to give me a better support build for pvp, fire away.

Bunker or support? For bunker I would spec differently but if you spec support, yea, I can see why you would use 5gyros. Although, I have an idea to use just 4. A special combo. Bulwark + elixir s. Infinite Absorption for 3s!!!!!! Maybe. Have to try it out.

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@DinoStone.2485 said:I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

I didn't notice the function gyro for a long time after I had started playing scrapper. So yes, it's a horrible profession mechanic.

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@Dirame.8521 said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@"talprofil.5986" said:

@Dirame.8521 said:The lightning field when combined with leap skills cause daze. At the right time, at the right moment in a PvP match YES, a .25s daze can make a difference. Trust me, you should see some of the clutch moments I have had the pleasure of recording, it is incredible how close some moments are.

Why do you do this? You see that I already explained how the lightning field works multiple times in the same post, so why go on? Did you actually read the post, or are you just being contentious? As for the 0.25 seconds making a difference... I don't believe you. Period. I think you're lying just to be difficult.

I noticed you explained a bit more after I read on into your post. That said. I am not lying. Answer me these question if you will; Would you say interrupting a stomp with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a heal with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time? Would you say interrupting a Firebrand about to use Signet of Mercy with a 0.25s daze is a waste of time?I rest my case.This "argument" of yours is completely off. The thing is that it doesn't give you any additional dazes that would indeed have the uses you elaborated on but the dazes you already do via combo finishers last 0.25s longer. A 0.75s daze instead of a 0.5s daze on using Hammer 3 in a lightning field (about the only reliable source of leaps you'll find on scrapper builds) won't give you any perceivable advantage.

I don't know what you guys use but the last thing I would use when playing Bunker Scrapper is 5 gyros.

lol Orly? Do you pvp?Cause I run withMedicBulwarkPurgeBlastSneakWorks great. Do I need to explain why?I love the support of it. Someone want to give me a better support build for pvp, fire away.

Bunker or support? For bunker I would spec differently but if you spec support, yea, I can see why you would use 5gyros. Although, I have an idea to use just 4. A special combo. Bulwark + elixir s. Infinite Absorption for 3s!!!!!! Maybe. Have to try it out.

Well, it is the current Metabattle Scrapper Gyro Bunker.By the time you read this, it will be meaningless.The typical build runs e gun over blast.I ran it with menders for more healing.

I don't know how it's going to actually fair after the patch. Guess we will see.

@Vagrant.7206

All the talk about drunk scrapper, I pulled up the Drunk Scrapper build and ran that a game.I had no idea what I was doing. But people died...and well, being a meme build, so did I :P

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@RoterFuchs.9216 said:

@DinoStone.2485 said:I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

I didn't notice the function gyro for a long time after I had started playing scrapper. So yes, it's a horrible profession mechanic.If they would
just
have changed the gyro - even at the loss of F5 - it wouldnt be too horrible... Unlike this complete meltdown of the traits.

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I read the notes again and again and I don't see one single change to Scrapper that is anything other than a nerf. Was Scrapper really this broken class that needed such a drastic overhaul? I don't understand what they were thinking.

And after 7 years they decided the Engineer's rifle was so OP it need three skills nerfed as well?

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