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@Abraxxus.8971 said:All these changes really don't mean anything, and they won't until they figure out a way to get more people into pvp so that maybe, just maybe, we can actually start getting teamed with people of comparable skill level instead of being teamed with starters that don't know any tactics except mash buttons.

What the hell you talking about? People will never come back. It's done.

You'l see small fluctuation here & there. But no real rise in popularity.This game had it & only PVE base will remain.

I get in & click rank & have a few skirmish in the Free arena. But 5 minutes later i turn the game off wondering why am i playing it in the first place?I do that almost every day. sigh...

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@"James.1065" said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

They have game metrics.

10 players going to the forums or community sites saying "I fell like I'm squishier than I should be" can't have more weight than metrics clearly indicating they die less and lose less health on average than what they intended for the spec.

Every skill you take. Every move you make. Every boon you get. Every step you take. They'll be watching you.

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I would suggest to the OP to check engineer's sub forum to see what the actual engineers thing about the patch notes. The general feeling is a BIG nerf to scrapper.

The removal from full FREE defensive sustain traits (like rapid regeneration) changed to "deal damage to sustain" traits mean that you need to actually DO damage to get barriers, and scrapper hammer have big issues reaching enemies to do it.

So most engineers think that the scrapper sustain and rezhability will be worst than what is now (not juzguin if now is too much or not) just comparing before and after patch

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@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"James.1065" said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

They have game metrics.

10 players going to the forums or community sites saying "I fell like I'm squishier than I should be" can't have more weight than metrics clearly indicating they die less and lose less health on average than what they intended for the spec.

Every skill you take. Every move you make. Every boon you get. Every step you take. They'll be watching you.

Just so I understand what you're saying. You don't see Necros focused first and the easiest to zerg since they have no scaling defenses like blocks, evades, immunities??? You think they AREN'T easy to kill up close by warriors, revs, and guardians who wear heavy armor and have tons of cc? You don't see them picked off at range by rangers and mesmers with almost no gap closers?

You believe that because Anet has "metrics" that they can't make mistakes in patches, and, thus all the changes they proposed in this patch and past patches have been correct???

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@SPESHAL.9106 said:

@"James.1065" said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

They have game metrics.

10 players going to the forums or community sites saying "I fell like I'm squishier than I should be" can't have more weight than metrics clearly indicating they die less and lose less health on average than what they intended for the spec.

Every skill you take. Every move you make. Every boon you get. Every step you take. They'll be watching you.

Just so I understand what you're saying. You don't see Necros focused first and the easiest to zerg since they have no scaling defenses like blocks, evades, immunities??? You think they AREN'T easy to kill up close by warriors, revs, and guardians who wear heavy armor and have tons of cc? You don't see them picked off at range by rangers and mesmers with almost no gap closers?

You believe that because Anet has "metrics" that they can't make mistakes in patches, and, thus all the changes they proposed in this patch and past patches have been correct???

This!

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@SPESHAL.9106 said:

@"James.1065" said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

They have game metrics.

10 players going to the forums or community sites saying "I fell like I'm squishier than I should be" can't have more weight than metrics clearly indicating they die less and lose less health on average than what they intended for the spec.

Every skill you take. Every move you make. Every boon you get. Every step you take. They'll be watching you.

Just so I understand what you're saying. You don't see Necros focused first and the easiest to zerg since they have no scaling defenses like blocks, evades, immunities??? You think they AREN'T easy to kill up close by warriors, revs, and guardians who wear heavy armor and have tons of cc? You don't see them picked off at range by rangers and mesmers with almost no gap closers?

You believe that because Anet has "metrics" that they can't make mistakes in patches, and, thus all the changes they proposed in this patch and past patches have been correct???

That's not what he said, you misunderstood.

Arenanets metrics will be more viable than players subjective feeling. They will consider a change based on the data they have and limited play experience. They can then check if the change had the desired effect via metrics post balance patch and make adjustments if deemed appropriarte.

That has nothing to do with being right or making mistakes. It's about how you approach the problem seperate from subjective emotion and bias. Obviously there can still be mistakes in reading the data, the expected solution which is implemented, etc.

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@Ganathar.4956 said:

@James.1065 said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

It's a PvE change. In PvE the mobs just stand there and eat your damage, and even if they move a bit reaper has enough cleave to easily multi-hit them. The trait made it so you were much harder to kill. This is on a spec that was already harder to die with than other DPS specs in PvE without soul eater. It does suck a little for competitive modes but the truth is that it barely did anything there anyway. If you get any significant healing from this it means that you would have won the fight anyway.

Even as a pve change, it's a not needed nerf. You have to have full 25 stacks of might 100% crit and all other damage modifier as well as cleaving maximum number of mobs just for it to keep you topped up but was never too much sustain. Against single targets it's a super weak trait

It suits the theme to be able to heal in shroud and also makes playing it fun: you take damage from your health bar to gain LF and then go into shroud to deal damage and gain back your health, as your LF depletes. It's a balancing trick of micro managing your health vs force. It was a super cool mechanic and not over powered at all.

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@James.1065 said:

@James.1065 said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

It's a PvE change. In PvE the mobs just stand there and eat your damage, and even if they move a bit reaper has enough cleave to easily multi-hit them. The trait made it so you were much harder to kill. This is on a spec that was already harder to die with than other DPS specs in PvE without soul eater. It does suck a little for competitive modes but the truth is that it barely did anything there anyway. If you get any significant healing from this it means that you would have won the fight anyway.

It suits the theme to be able to heal in shroud and also makes playing it fun: you take damage from your health bar to gain LF and then go into shroud to deal damage and gain back your health, as your LF depletes. It's a balancing trick of micro managing your health vs force. It was a super cool mechanic and not over powered at all.

So you are telling us that.. having 2 separate hp bars, where one recovers while the other one gets depleted and you can change almost at will (with cd) so you can recharge the second one while the first one regenerates.. is not an op mechanic? thonkI agree tho, the change was not necessary. Would rather like to see a little less aoe burst. The damage output is actually fine imo, it's just that in sPvP the on-point AoE cleave is a tad too high when using Reaper's Onslaught imo.

@James.1065 said:It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kittenLet me fix that sentence for you:"It has ridiculous burst output with spin2win and AoE chill and it is common knowledge to focus it first as a very strong aoe damage dealer".There you go :)

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

You made a mistake on function gyro. At 50% added the cooldown goes up by each additional gyro spawned.

So, assuming you stomp 3 and res 3 at the same time that adds 15x5 seconds to the recharge. As such, in that extreme example, you have a cooldown of 105 seconds.

More likely you will have two downed (one enemy and one ally). The cooldown is 45 seconds. So this gives you a chance to save an ally from cleave while stomping an enemy once every 45 seconds.

Strong but will have to see how much better it is than some of the scourge resurrection bots.

It removes the elite toolkit ability.

The new gyro is a
massive
nerf to the scrapper.

@saerni.2584 The res & stomp multiples at the same time while laying down a daze is an amazing upgrade regardless of the increased CD. That's pretty much a guaranteed way to turn around a failing team fight, and the CD really isn't that much considering FG is now like a better version of Banner, which has a much longer CD might I add. Just my opinion though.

@Dawdler.8521 Yeah, I didn't notice that initially about removing F5 elite. I guess the drawback system is getting real.

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the badscrapper gutted

Was scrapper gutted??? I don't see anything other than a slight shave in healing (not a shave in barrier creation) that leads me to believe that it was gutted. I think it might be
STRONGER
in a team setting after the patch.

This is what I was thinking. The -300 vitality is only 3000 health value and the Scrapper will still have more base health than a Guardian. People are freaking out about the -300 health value, but considering the ridiculous amount of added daze effects and the +75% duration they are receiving, I think we'll be seeing Scrappers run Marauder or Demolisher maybe, to benefit the 15% barriers from damage, and players without heavy stability uptime won't be able to breath much in a 1v1 vs. a Scrapper due to the overly frequent dazing that is elongated as hell. Then of course the almost 100% uptime of superspeed is going allow the Scrapper to disengage whenever and wherever it wants to, freely at will. I'm no Engi main, but it looks to me that the side node 1vX bunker will be going away, and a much more annoying fast moving decapper side node 1v1 duelist is going to emerge. Oh and, hitting things with the hammer isn't going to be an issue when it has heavy application of superspeed. Just my prediction.

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:I don't know man, marksmanship is a pretty ballsy traitline... I was running it with zerker and sic em just to feel it was doing enough damage. The 15% reduction to sic em actually isn't much AND it has added move speed now... might still be worth it. I just don't expect players to be running marksmanship and dropping wilderness survival.

Dropping wilderness survival in this meta is simply not worth it. Marksmanship is literally a meme full power trait line and a major reason why this class gets complained about, because it can push out good damage, but they don't understand the flipside of your survivability trade off is 100% for even hitting higher numbers.

You are a walking target aside from necro because it's obvious if you're running opportunity buff icons on your bar, then you're most likely not running WS aka easy burst down.

This is obviously fine , for the most part there should be trade offs in survivability for higher dmg, the issue with ranger is you don't do near as much dmg as other classes consistently and one cleave from WI or maul isn't enough with res capability now no matter how many once-every-30second trait modifiers you setup beforehand (blocks, evade, invuln exist too , blocks even more now).

Also @Trevor Boyer.6524 "AoO 25%, MoC 50%, Remorseless 25% = +100% damage modifier for a given Maul or WI. I warned everyone, been warning you for months." - This is not efficient in higher level play or against people with brains unless you're 1upping. Nevertheless, it will be complained about and requested to be nerfed heavily because unfortunately casuals will be victims to this setup and immediately clamor to the forums to cry for nerfs. So expect that coming soon. I'm sure there's already numerous threads on it anyway so lol

I would have said the same thing about a year ago. Lately however, I had been experimenting with Ranger, using it for different kinds of job roles other than the traditional. There is a strong marksmanship/(beastmastery or skirmishing)/soulbeast build that you can run, that makes a VERY strong team fighter. It's a Necro/FB type situation though. The Ranger needs a dedicated support to travel with, but when it has it, and it is in a 3v3 or 4v4 where there is confusion, it is easy to hit with big marksmanship modifiers and 1HKO players. It runs GS and Axe/Axe, lays down way heavier AoE damage than even a Berserker, and offers stance share. Bear Stance is amazing when running a team fight Ranger like this btw, as well as Dolyak. The nastiest part about this, is there is a way to perma spam AoE weakness constantly. As I said to Eurantien & Zhou before, I'll try to get around to posting some footage of this soon. Yesterday I was using my time to try and rank up a bit during the last 48 hours that I'll be able to play Druid, because I had just transferred back from EU and had 0 games played.

@Bossun.2046 said:man, and i had finally found a cool druid build from some barbie girl on youtube. Something that made druid actually playable, and now i see that this low tier spec is getting nerfed... what are they thinking in there. NCsoft needs to pay more attention to anet xd

Oh I'm sure there is some kind of an arcane marketing purpose behind what they are doing, that us consumer plebs wouldn't understand. Still doesn't make me feel better about these balance decisions though!

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

MESMER:
  • I don't think these changes will necessarily be buffs or nerfs in competitive modes, but I could be wrong. These however: Flow of Time: The alacrity per clone shattered has been increased from 1 second to 1.5 seconds & Seize the Moment: The quickness per clone shattered has been increased from 1.5 seconds to 2 seconds, are going to be pretty kitten strong in pve.

u rly dunno much bout mesmer now do u? not being able to shatter on yourself and not being able to shatter with 0 clones. also no distortion on f4 basically. that's a nail in a coffin for chronos. they made illusionary persona trait as baseline for a reason. that's how important it is to use shatters with no clones. chrono will be clunky and terrible. nothing "strong in pve" about it also.

Just adding that the reason for quickness and alacrity "buff" per clone is because there is no IP on chrono, so surprise surprise it's still the same quickness and alacrity.

Seriously if after this you can see why Trevor is clueless regarding mesmers and anti-mesmer at heart...

Yup, I'm no Mesmer main. I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well, including Ranger/Soulbast/Druid. I was actually one of the first people who said Sic Em needed a nerf. So you Mirage mains can go ahead and stop victimizing yourselves. It's annoying, please stop.

@Chaith.8256 Good forecast. 100% agree.

@"ApaWanka.2698" said:I would suggest to the OP to check engineer's sub forum to see what the actual engineers thing about the patch notes. The general feeling is a BIG nerf to scrapper.

The removal from full FREE defensive sustain traits (like rapid regeneration) changed to "deal damage to sustain" traits mean that you need to actually DO damage to get barriers, and scrapper hammer have big issues reaching enemies to do it.

So most engineers think that the scrapper sustain and rezhability will be worst than what is now (not juzguin if now is too much or not) just comparing before and after patch

I think people are misunderstanding the quick comments I made in the OP statement. Also man, I really don't think this is going to be a big nerf to Scrapper like everyone seems to believe. A nerf to 1vX bunker sure, but a new build will emerge from this. Possibly one that is stronger or at the least, equal in value.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524 The problem is not that you aren't a mesmer main, the problem is that you have no idea about mesmers and still give suggestions.

This.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Yup, I'm no Mesmer main. I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well, including Ranger/Soulbast/Druid. I was actually one of the first people who said Sic Em needed a nerf. So you Mirage mains can go ahead and stop victimizing yourselves. It's annoying, please stop.

If you don't even understand the most basic mechanics, how can you give suggestions? Also who ever mentioned Mirage? You certainly didn't. None of the mesmer/chrono players did in this context. Stop trying to deflect and play the victim role. You are clueless as to the most basic mesmer/chrono/mirage mechanics.

As to your suggestions considering druid/soulbeast/ranger, all I see is a whine thread here. So what gives? Not happy with how Arenanet addressed your class in this balance patch? Welcome to mesmer world for the past 2 years.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524 The problem is not that you aren't a mesmer main, the problem is that you have no idea about mesmers and still give suggestions.

In this thread, I did not give any suggestion. I made a statement that Chrono would be fine in pve. You guys are derpy sometimes.

And furthermore, the legendary thread that all you Mesmer mains keep referring to, was the thread that I suggested a change to infinite horizon and illusionary ambush back when Mirage had a bit too much defensive play, which is basically the same exact thing everyone else was suggesting. I just better explained why, than most other people. Aside from that, I have quite seriously never once even commented on anything Mesmer related. Get your facts straight.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524 The problem is not that you aren't a mesmer main, the problem is that you have no idea about mesmers and still give suggestions.

This.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Yup, I'm no Mesmer main. I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well, including Ranger/Soulbast/Druid. I was actually one of the first people who said Sic Em needed a nerf. So you Mirage mains can go ahead and stop victimizing yourselves. It's annoying, please stop.

If you don't even understand the most basic mechanics, how can you give suggestions? Also who ever mentioned Mirage? You certainly didn't. None of the mesmer/chrono players did in this context. Stop trying to deflect and play the victim role. You are clueless as to the most basic mesmer/chrono/mirage mechanics.

As to your suggestions considering druid/soulbeast/ranger, all I see is a whine thread here. So what gives? Not happy with how Arenanet addressed your class in this balance patch? Welcome to mesmer world for the past 2 years.

^ That's exactly what I'm talking about right there, with these Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains. Everything is drama to you guys. Has to be drama. No mains of any other class act like this. For whatever reason, Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains MUST turn every discussion somehow into Mesmer talk, and victimize themselves and/or pessimistically scrutinize anyone & everyone who says anything at all about Mesmer. It's weird boys, get over it.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524 The problem is not that you aren't a mesmer main, the problem is that you have no idea about mesmers and still give suggestions.

In this thread, I did not give any suggestion. I made a statement that Chrono would be fine in pve. You guys are kitten sometimes.

And furthermore, the legendary thread that all you Mesmer mains keep referring to, was the thread that I suggested a change to infinite horizon and illusionary ambush back when Mirage had a bit too much defensive play, which is basically the same exact thing everyone else was suggesting. I just better explained why, than most other people. Aside from that, I have quite seriously never once even commented on anything Mesmer related. Get your facts straight.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524 The problem is not that you aren't a mesmer main, the problem is that you have no idea about mesmers and still give suggestions.

This.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Yup, I'm no Mesmer main. I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well, including Ranger/Soulbast/Druid. I was actually one of the first people who said Sic Em needed a nerf. So you Mirage mains can go ahead and stop victimizing yourselves. It's annoying, please stop.

If you don't even understand the most basic mechanics, how can you give suggestions? Also who ever mentioned Mirage? You certainly didn't. None of the mesmer/chrono players did in this context. Stop trying to deflect and play the victim role. You are clueless as to the most basic mesmer/chrono/mirage mechanics.

As to your suggestions considering druid/soulbeast/ranger, all I see is a whine thread here. So what gives? Not happy with how Arenanet addressed your class in this balance patch? Welcome to mesmer world for the past 2 years.

^ That's exactly what I'm talking about right there, with these Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains. Everything is drama to you guys. Has to be drama. No mains of any other class act like this. For whatever reason, Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains MUST turn every discussion somehow into Mesmer talk, and victimize themselves and/or pessimistically scrutinize anyone & everyone who says anything at all about Mesmer. It's weird boys, get over it.
They both stated the obvious you are not just "not mesmer main" you have no clue about the class even a tiny bit. Second response was to yourI always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as wellYou have no clue about any class, nerf/buff suggestions from such person is nothing but a joke.Your eternal mesmer hate :What did you even explained ?Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems:
  • Infinite Horizon
  • Illusionary Ambush
  • Axes of SymmetryGood explanation sir, aside that you were whining in every single thread about mirage, couldnt care less about your walls of tears about it.Yes, I do have a vendetta towards seeing Mirage nerfed^From Countless thread. Im not surprised.
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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The res & stomp multiples at the same time while laying down a daze is an amazing upgrade regardless of the increased CD. That's pretty much a guaranteed way to turn around a failing team fight, and the CD really isn't that much considering FG is now like a better version of Banner, which has a much longer CD might I add. Just my opinion though.

That daze you're talking about, that's an adept trait that nobody will have called System Shock. It's not a guaranteed turn around because summoning more Function Gyros leaves them still as just 1 npc manually reviving that are vulnerable to the cleave, CC & corruption coming in. Function Gyro is only capable of reviving by itself if it's a sneaky res where nobody is hitting the body, Scrapper has been good at double-ressing 1 target, but you aren't summoning more Scrappers to fast revive everybody.

@Dawdler.8521 Yeah, I didn't notice that initially about removing F5 elite. I guess the drawback system is getting real.

Yeah, so, for base Scrapper it's like this:

  • Get multi-function Gyros & lightning field, get super speed on combo finisher, get 15% damage to barrier conversion.
  • Lose by getting a 50-250% increased F-Gyro cooldown, lose a game changer F5 skill such as Toss Moa, lose Super Speed/Might/Barrier on finish/revive (not a big loss), lose 15% increased barrier, lose 5% damage while you have barrier, lose 300 vitality.

Those are the changes to base Scrapper traitline before looking at major traits. I'd say if you carefully weigh the pros and cons, it's objectively a sizable nerf to base Scrapper traitline minors.

If we look at the skills affected, Bulwark Gyro is getting a big nerf, how much is unknown, but likely won't be usable unless you focus on teamfighting only. Big big nerf, Bulwark barrier is the buff that recently put Scrapper on the map from being in obscurity. Elixir X cooldown increased by 30s, skills portion of Scrapper getting scuffed as well.

And then major traits:

  • PvP Scrappers for Adept traits are going to be getting Might on stability, and stability on Function Gyro, this is coming in instead of Perfectly Weighted's 10% hammer damage & stability on dodge roll. Kind of a side-grade. Less stability uptime, slightly more damage it works out to be.
  • PvP Scrappers when looking at major traits, it gets a little depressing. No longer able to get that good healing per second from Rapid Regeneration, probably just take the 5-15% damage boost which is roughly equal in damage than was in that slot before.
  • PvP Scrappers when looking at grandmaster major traits gets really depressing - adaptive armor is gutted to hell garbage tier, it's a grandmaster at about the strength of a minor trait, this was a big part of Scrapper's strength pre-patch. It was way better than any new options available.

So if you break down every angle, Scrapper's compulsory traits, relevant skills, major traits, it's arguable net nerfs to each of the 3 categories.

But considering the ridiculous amount of added daze effects. Won't be able to breath much in a 1v1 vs. a Scrapper due to the overly frequent dazing that is elongated as hell.

What are you even talking about? There's an adept trait that nobody will take, and it does this: Function Gyro AoE dazes for 0.5s on a 30-105s cooldown, and your 2 leap finishers will daze for 1.5s x2 instead of 1s x2 every 12 seconds IF you use your combo skill offensively. In a lightning field. Frequent dazing that's elongated as hell? That's a garbage trait compared with other options.

Almost 100% uptime of superspeed is going allow the Scrapper to disengage whenever and wherever it wants to, freely at will.

To get 100% uptime of superspeed when disengaging you need to take Shocking Speed, and Gyros. Currently live Scrapper has this, because Shocking Speed & Gyros (Bulwark) are good. Scrappers currently can not disengage freely at will, Superspeed doesn't get you away from Thief, Mesmer, or Revenant. The Scrapper you're theorycrafting post patch has the ability to select 2-3 adept major traits. You need to choose one. Undoubtedly, the superspeed uptime of Scrappers post patch is going to decline because its less appealing to take Shocking Speed & Gyros. Post patch, you'll get superspeed from leap & blast finishers, but we don't know how much uptime that is. It's not almost 100%. It'll be less disengage and way less sustain than current Scrapper. It'll be shifted more toward Guardian where you go crush people, or die, you need to do damage to get Barrier.

Oh and, hitting things with the hammer isn't going to be an issue when it has heavy application of superspeed. Just my prediction.

Your predictions will be off because you based it on the idea that Scrappers will get 100% superspeed and 100% daze uptime from two crappy adept traits nobody will take, because you need that might & stability from the bottom adept.

I think people are misunderstanding the quick comments I made in the OP statement. Also man, I really don't think this is going to be a big nerf to Scrapper like everyone seems to believe. A nerf to 1vX bunker sure, but a new build will emerge from this. Possibly one that is stronger or at the least, equal in value.

It will not be equal in value in a competitive setting, the sheer tankiness of Scrapper is the only un-counterable thing about it. Its damage application methods are still going to be awful and extremely kite-able. I will wreck noobs with my damage build but it's gonna lose 75% of its current playerbase who are used to playing wet-noodle Scrapper.It's gonna be teamfight or bust for a serious attempt at Scrapper.

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@SPESHAL.9106 said:

@"James.1065" said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

They have game metrics.

10 players going to the forums or community sites saying "I fell like I'm squishier than I should be" can't have more weight than metrics clearly indicating they die less and lose less health on average than what they intended for the spec.

Every skill you take. Every move you make. Every boon you get. Every step you take. They'll be watching you.

Just so I understand what you're saying. You don't see Necros focused first and the easiest to zerg since they have no scaling defenses like blocks, evades, immunities??? You think they AREN'T easy to kill up close by warriors, revs, and guardians who wear heavy armor and have tons of cc? You don't see them picked off at range by rangers and mesmers with almost no gap closers?

You believe that because Anet has "metrics" that they can't make mistakes in patches, and, thus all the changes they proposed in this patch and past patches have been correct???

You are completely missing the point.

It's not that they can't make mistakes just because they have metrics. It's that a single player's personal feelings and subjective experience cannot have more weight than actual factual data.

I read people saying reapers and scourges are squishy, but in my personal experience, as long as I'm not targeted my some gimmicky <1s burst I didn't see coming before I can put up my defenses, and as long as I can remove immobilize, I can get away and survive just fine.

Whatever they are doing, if they feel so squishy, they may be approaching the profession all wrong in the first place, trying to make it do something it wasn't designed for. Like trying to use a pestle to cut a loaf of bread and complaining it isn't sharp enough.

When a zerg begins to surround me, I can often get out of there if I move away fast enough, but trying to stay in there would be suicide.A reaper clearly isn't supposed to stay inside an enemy zerg and survive. They do not have many of the tools that would allow to do that well. If you look at a reaper skill set, in large scale fights Reapers are clearly meant to catch stragglers are they try to run away, and pin them down for your zerg to burst down. Death's Charge is a perfect example of a tool they can use to quickly close up to a singled out enemy, but slide away if the brunt of the enemy forces focuses on you. It works nicely for both tasks with its short 6s recharge.

Have you ever tried a spectral graps followed by a Executioner's Scythe? After landing enough of those you chip away at an enemy zerg until they see their numbers have dwindled and run away, and then you keep them from running away snaring them with shouts, staff marks and pulling them back in with Grasping Darknes and spectral grasp, a bit of "Nothing Can Save You!" (which by the way should have 6s revealed added to it) and they won't be able to block your attack. Quickly get into shroud to put up stability and if they reflect the grasp you won't be pulled instead.

When out of life force, just a few traited staff marks and you are back up with full life force while staying at a safe distance.

But if a Reaper tries to get into a bunch of stacked enemy AoEs, of course they'll feel squishy. They are strong in small fights, against enemy zergs you'll need blocks, barrier and invulnerable, which they purposely do not have.

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@"Ryudnard.2587" said:You are such a cry baby. Give a constructive criticism as why you think it is bad.

Don't just: "my reaction was nonononononono lololololololol."

I like your feedback on thief. At least you are being honest.

You seem a little lost, you haven't posted in this thread before/nobody responded to you like that. :-1:

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Yup, I'm no Mesmer main. I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well, including Ranger/Soulbast/Druid. I was actually one of the first people who said Sic Em needed a nerf. So you Mirage mains can go ahead and stop victimizing yourselves. It's annoying, please stop.

First of all no1 said anythin bout Mirage cuz Chrono is getting nerfed. Secondly mesmers aren't victimizing themselves. They are merely reacting to what Anet is doing to their class over the last 2 years (same goes to eles and same goes BIG time for thieves).. so.. Imagine your beloved ranger would get nerfed to the ground (like let's say thief was over the past 3-4 years). Wouldn't you become a "victimized crybaby" on forums? I bet you would. It's all good and smooth sailing when your own skin is safe right? Well i'd be very curious to see how would u deal with your main class being destroyed by balance team and how would u adapt to such changes. U'd either quit or re-roll like most of ppl do. Being biased looks very terrible. People should speak only about the class that they fully understand. I'd never go and speak about anythin xcept mesmer/thief. I've played em all but i do not understand them all 100%. So u should take that advice and speak only bout the class that u've played atleast 2-3 years. Your opinion would be wildly different i assume in that case.

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@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"James.1065" said:I honestly don't know what they based the decision on that reapers survivability was too high with soul eater healing in shroud.

It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kitten

They have game metrics.

10 players going to the forums or community sites saying "I fell like I'm squishier than I should be" can't have more weight than metrics clearly indicating they die less and lose less health on average than what they intended for the spec.

Every skill you take. Every move you make. Every boon you get. Every step you take. They'll be watching you.

Just so I understand what you're saying. You don't see Necros focused first and the easiest to zerg since they have no scaling defenses like blocks, evades, immunities??? You think they AREN'T easy to kill up close by warriors, revs, and guardians who wear heavy armor and have tons of cc? You don't see them picked off at range by rangers and mesmers with almost no gap closers?

You believe that because Anet has "metrics" that they can't make mistakes in patches, and, thus all the changes they proposed in this patch and past patches have been correct???

You are completely missing the point.

It's not that they can't make mistakes just because they have metrics. It's that a single player's personal feelings and subjective experience cannot have more weight than actual factual data.

I read people saying reapers and scourges are squishy, but in my personal experience, as long as I'm not targeted my some gimmicky <1s burst I didn't see coming before I can put up my defenses, and as long as I can remove immobilize, I can get away and survive just fine.

Whatever they are doing, if they feel so squishy, they may be approaching the profession all wrong in the first place, trying to make it do something it wasn't designed for. Like trying to use a pestle to cut a loaf of bread and complaining it isn't sharp enough.

When a zerg begins to surround me, I can often get out of there if I move away fast enough, but trying to stay in there would be suicide.A reaper clearly isn't supposed to stay inside an enemy zerg and survive. They do not have many of the tools that would allow to do that well. If you look at a reaper skill set, in large scale fights Reapers are clearly meant to catch stragglers are they try to run away, and pin them down for your zerg to burst down. Death's Charge is a perfect example of a tool they can use to quickly close up to a singled out enemy, but slide away if the brunt of the enemy forces focuses on you. It works nicely for both tasks with its short 6s recharge.

Have you ever tried a spectral graps followed by a Executioner's Scythe? After landing enough of those you chip away at an enemy zerg until they see their numbers have dwindled and run away, and then you keep them from running away snaring them with shouts, staff marks and pulling them back in with Grasping Darknes and spectral grasp, a bit of "Nothing Can Save You!" (which by the way should have 6s revealed added to it) and they won't be able to block your attack. Quickly get into shroud to put up stability and if they reflect the grasp you won't be pulled instead.

When out of life force, just a few traited staff marks and you are back up with full life force while staying at a safe distance.

But if a Reaper tries to get into a bunch of stacked enemy AoEs, of course they'll feel squishy. They are strong in small fights, against enemy zergs you'll need blocks, barrier and invulnerable, which they purposely do not have.

Now that you "explained" yourself...your point is even worse because you really are spinning and cherry picking some rationale to support what you were arguing.

The suvivability of reapers is NOT too high by ANY objective measure. The scenario you outlined is sheer folly against a coordinated team. I doubt you have ever played against such.

Plus, you pretty much argued against yourself by finally admitting that a class needs blocks, barriers and invulns to fight against zergs. Here's a news flash...other classes have those abilities so it's sheer folly AGAIN to say Reapers are TOO survivable as Anet claimed simply due to 5% damage within 300 range healing them in shroud.

Heck...a reaper doesn't even need to go into a zerg to get insta-gibbed. One daze mesmer and rev will 100-0 the reaper with no chance to escape. SB ranger or rampage warrior will totally evaporate the reapers health in seconds. If they have just ONE other person...not a zerg...it's even worse....yet...you believe Anet's statement that they are too survivable.

Have you NOT ever seen other professions escape those scenarios much easier? You have never seen a Thief escape 2 people much easier??? You have never seen a Mesmer escape? You have never seen a scrapper stand up to 2-3 people longer than a reaper? You have never seen a guardian last longer? You have never seen a warrior and rev run away from bad odds easier?

How do you not see the obvious??? Matches start with the opposing team targeting the necro almost 100% of the time...yet...you believe Anet's statement that they are too survivable.

BTW, at the start of a match, a necro has ZERO life force and the only way to get it is get in combat. Without life force, a necro has almost no defenses and many of their traits and abilities are useless. Almost every other class is at full strength to start a match with 100% of their cooldowns available...yet...you believe Anet's statement that reapers are TOO survivable because of 5% healing in shroud when doing damage in 300 range...roflmao.

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@"James.1065" said:It's the squishiest class of all the melee professions and common knowledge to focus it first as an easy kill! Seriously kittenLet me fix that sentence for you:"It has ridiculous burst output with spin2win and AoE chill and it is common knowledge to focus it first as a very strong aoe damage dealer".There you go :)

I don't know why people complain so much about spin to win, there are alot of classes hitting alot harder from alot further away and even some from stealth!

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@"Dave.6819" said:

Yup, I'm no Mesmer main. I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well, including Ranger/Soulbast/Druid. I was actually one of the first people who said Sic Em needed a nerf. So you Mirage mains can go ahead and stop victimizing yourselves. It's annoying, please stop.

First of all no1 said anythin bout Mirage cuz Chrono is getting nerfed. Secondly mesmers aren't victimizing themselves. They are merely reacting to what Anet is doing to their class over the last 2 years (same goes to eles and same goes BIG time for thieves).. so.. Imagine your beloved ranger would get nerfed to the ground (like let's say thief was over the past 3-4 years). Wouldn't you become a "victimized crybaby" on forums? I bet you would. It's all good and smooth sailing when your own skin is safe right? Well i'd be very curious to see how would u deal with your main class being destroyed by balance team and how would u adapt to such changes. U'd either quit or re-roll like most of ppl do. Being biased looks very terrible. People should speak only about the class that they fully understand. I'd never go and speak about anythin xcept mesmer/thief. I've played em all but i do not understand them all 100%. So u should take that advice and speak only bout the class that u've played atleast 2-3 years. Your opinion would be wildly different i assume in that case.

  1. Ranger was knocked completely out of viability during the core years for 50% of the time or greater.
  2. Ranger had a good run during HoT with Druid.
  3. Druid had the batshit nerfed out of it with PoF release and Ranger has seen nothing but subpar bottom meta, not top tier viable builds ever since.
  4. I have been a Ranger main for 7 years. I experienced all of these eras.
  5. for 7 years I have also watched Mesmer occupy top 3 meta positions, or even at times, be allowed by Anet to run a completely bugged & broken build that allows it transcendent competitive status amongst other metas, while we wait months and months for some kind of a simple fix.

Don't talk to me about Rangers & Mesmers, Dave. Don't do it! Stop it!

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

  1. Druid had nerfed out of it with PoF release and Ranger has seen nothing but subpar bottom meta, not top tier viable builds ever since.Paladin Soulbeast was meta, but I agree that Druid nerfs weren't really needed. Also, mesmer mains were changing to soulbeast for mATs.

  2. for 7 years I have also watched Mesmer occupy top 3 meta positions, or even at times, be allowed by Anet to run a completely bugged & broken build that allows it transcendent competitive status amongst other metas, while we wait months and months for some kind of a simple fix.They haven't even fixed 1900 range on ranger longbow.

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Thief reworks are just amusing so amusing its going to be funny how much crying starts when these changes go into effect. I'll just say the way I am perceiving it working is that the more spam you dish out to attack a thief the more deadly the thief can become. We won't even need to use any power in our builds we can just use minstrel or nomads or the mender I think is pvp's. All deadeye needs to do with the thief changes is hold a shortbow and mark targets. Return of the ninja medic its such an epic movie name. All the medics coming out of retirement the world needs healing it really does.

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