Isn't Firebrand the real problem? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Isn't Firebrand the real problem?

Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Comments

  • Chilli.2976Chilli.2976 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Very few decent Firebrands so no.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What was the last FB nerf?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    fb has to be op since everything else is op.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    fb has to be op since everything else is op.

    There is no support spec that come close to firebrand

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

    Imagine what would happen without firebrand massive support against thing like scourge, even with firebrand people still have billion conditions.. Do you think firebrand is the issue when scourge put so much pressure to entire team that firebrand barely can hold against it but eventually run out of cd's?

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    imo the issue is FB+Scourge... each of them alone is strong, yes... but they become very OP and oppressive when paired together

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    Problem is how important is stability in pvp/wvw and fb is kitting with stab and Aegis as well which is next important skill in teamfights. It has to many tools to give other supports any right to be competitive.
    Reduce fb boon spam or/and give other supports stab access.
    Tempest for example should have stability share on earth overload imo, it would be good start. Maybe revenant support idk. Just don't buff scrapper even more
    "omg u nub, fb doesn't even have that good healing" Yea it doesnt but it kitten with boons, and it's way to much for 1 spec
    "omg u nub, fb was nerfed already so many times, u want more?" Yea it had so many nerfs and its still meta, it needs more adjustments imo

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    This is nothing new, there are already many posts that FB needs to be resized and put on the same level as a druid and elementalist, we hope that anet will not forget.

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, Firebrand is the problem in most balance issues but nobody wants to believe it.

    Revenant is only able to mindlessly spam skills to do high damage because of the sustain firebrands give, without it revs can't keep pressuring in teamfights.
    Same goes for scourges.

    This game gives each class healing and sustain even though said class is dps. I have never seen another game where a character is able to heal himself without being a healer PLUS the ability of someone else being a dedicated healer.

    I understand a healer is necessary in PvE, but I strongly think a healer of the capacity of Firebrand is completely toxic to the PvP genre.

    Most high damage classes have been designed in a way that they cannot handle pressure so they can't deal high damage whilst being targeted. Firebrands completely remove this negative aspect of damage dealers and allow them to dps whilst being targeted.

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    With the amount of burst dmg in the game I think it is not necessarily the issue. The notion there should be no dedicated support/healer has been gone since HoT at latest (even before supp guard was a thing). The issue rather is that most other supporters are now underwhelming, so FB stands completely alone with that role since PoF Launch. In organised teams an FB is pretty much a must have, but in the average ranked you're often actually better off without one because of the lack of coordination between teammates. So I wouldn't say that FB is THE problem, even though a nerf to the Teamfight DPS meta builds would also make a shave of firebrands support capabilities necessary. This wouldnt necessarily have to be the healing, since FB offers a lot of support besides it (stability, aegis spam, boons, projectile hate, cleanse).

    Falásya / Caissech

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP changes

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @Falan.1839 said:
    With the amount of burst dmg in the game I think it is not necessarily the issue.

    Fight power creep with power creep, lol.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On one hand yes Firebrand is the best support hands down.

    On the other hand, healing and protecting allies is what the paladin archetype is supposed to do and the guardian embodies that archetype and I think it is massively important guardian fulfills that role just from a game design flavor role.

    On the other hand, if we see firebrand nerfed to the point where it is competitive with other side noders we likely won't see support in ranked at all period. It'll be a ranked only sort of thing.

    On the otherhand it would be great to see more variety in support like true support scrappers and support tempests and support druids.

    On the other hand Firebrand is the only time we've seen a true support act like a dedicated support and not primarily wind up like a selfish side noder the way druid did before it got nerfed.

    It's complicated and hard.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    It's complicated and hard.

    Because releasing insanely broken expansion with a scourge in there needs equally busted support spec that can hold against it.

  • Yes!! Nerf Firebrand and buff Mesmer!!!!

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    fb has to be op since everything else is op.

    There is no support spec that come close to firebrand

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

    Imagine what would happen without firebrand massive support against thing like scourge, even with firebrand people still have billion conditions.. Do you think firebrand is the issue when scourge put so much pressure to entire team that firebrand barely can hold against it but eventually run out of cd's?

    Firebrand isn't actually that great at team condi-cleansing. Yes F2 gives lots of cleanse, but this is on a 50s cool down and locks the FB out of weapon skills. Outside of this what cleanse does FB bring? Typically the cleanse mantra is not used. Tempest is actually much superior at team cleansing over time.

    It would be interesting to see that difference be more pronounced. Have FB be boon-support, Tempest be cleanse-support, and Druid be raw-heals-support, then people must choose which they want.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    When you have a bunch of fairly sturdy hard hitting builds like we have now, FB is only part of the problem.

    They do need to be nerfed though, if we intend to balance the survivability and damage of other classes.
    Otherwise you have Scourge's, Holos, Spell breakers, and Soul beats, that'll never die after reducing all the damage.

    Realistically you can't significantly bring down the damage until you bring down FB.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    fb has to be op since everything else is op.

    There is no support spec that come close to firebrand

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

    Imagine what would happen without firebrand massive support against thing like scourge, even with firebrand people still have billion conditions.. Do you think firebrand is the issue when scourge put so much pressure to entire team that firebrand barely can hold against it but eventually run out of cd's?

    Firebrand isn't actually that great at team condi-cleansing. Yes F2 gives lots of cleanse, but this is on a 50s cool down and locks the FB out of weapon skills. Outside of this what cleanse does FB bring? Typically the cleanse mantra is not used. Tempest is actually much superior at team cleansing over time.

    It would be interesting to see that difference be more pronounced. Have FB be boon-support, Tempest be cleanse-support, and Druid be raw-heals-support, then people must choose which they want.

    With the amount of condis scourge vomit I dont think tempest can handle this, at all (I havent seen them for a long time, may be its secretly better than FB? ;) ) .... Aside from cleanses fb brings -> boons/heals/revive signet, it has everything while others...
    I think both need a tone down, scourge and its condi spam and FB.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Issue with FB is many folds:

    1) instant Rez.
    2) aoe stability and resistance.
    3) so much aegis.
    4) protection, might, rev, aoe cleanse.

    Plus healing of course. This makes a competent team with FB against equally skilled team undefeatable.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    fb has to be op since everything else is op.

    There is no support spec that come close to firebrand

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

    Imagine what would happen without firebrand massive support against thing like scourge, even with firebrand people still have billion conditions.. Do you think firebrand is the issue when scourge put so much pressure to entire team that firebrand barely can hold against it but eventually run out of cd's?

    Firebrand isn't actually that great at team condi-cleansing. Yes F2 gives lots of cleanse, but this is on a 50s cool down and locks the FB out of weapon skills. Outside of this what cleanse does FB bring? Typically the cleanse mantra is not used. Tempest is actually much superior at team cleansing over time.

    It would be interesting to see that difference be more pronounced. Have FB be boon-support, Tempest be cleanse-support, and Druid be raw-heals-support, then people must choose which they want.

    With the amount of condis scourge vomit I dont think tempest can handle this, at all (I havent seen them for a long time, may be its secretly better than FB? ;) ) .... Aside from cleanses fb brings -> boons/heals/revive signet, it has everything while others...
    I think both need a tone down, scourge and its condi spam and FB.

    I never said Tempest was better than FB. Why are you twisting my words and making up things I never said? Could it be you have an agenda?

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    fb has to be op since everything else is op.

    There is no support spec that come close to firebrand

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

    Imagine what would happen without firebrand massive support against thing like scourge, even with firebrand people still have billion conditions.. Do you think firebrand is the issue when scourge put so much pressure to entire team that firebrand barely can hold against it but eventually run out of cd's?

    Firebrand isn't actually that great at team condi-cleansing. Yes F2 gives lots of cleanse, but this is on a 50s cool down and locks the FB out of weapon skills. Outside of this what cleanse does FB bring? Typically the cleanse mantra is not used. Tempest is actually much superior at team cleansing over time.

    It would be interesting to see that difference be more pronounced. Have FB be boon-support, Tempest be cleanse-support, and Druid be raw-heals-support, then people must choose which they want.

    With the amount of condis scourge vomit I dont think tempest can handle this, at all (I havent seen them for a long time, may be its secretly better than FB? ;) ) .... Aside from cleanses fb brings -> boons/heals/revive signet, it has everything while others...
    I think both need a tone down, scourge and its condi spam and FB.

    I never said Tempest was better than FB. Why are you twisting my words?

    It was an obvious joke, come on.
    At least what I wrote in " ( ) "

  • There is absolutely nothing wrong with a support FB. If you solo queue as a heal FB - it's basically a death sentence since 90% of the time you will have your scourge suddenly decide to go far and other nonsense. If you duo queue, FB performs OK - but that's because of coordination between the duo, not the class being OP. Also, try holding a node as a support FB for more than 5 seconds vs 2 dps classes and you will see how "strong" the FB support is.
    Rants like this from players who most likely have never played the actual class, but happened to come across a good FB player/duo so they couldn't insta pew-pew them, lead to kitten unnecessary nerfs to classes, as it seems like the devs "balance" the classes based on the amount of "NERF CLASS XXX" threads on forums.

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    They nerfed Firebrand and Scourge in a "recent" patch, Firebrand lost the Tome reset + base CDs on Tomes (and more), Scourge lost its passive Spectral Armor, and more.

    This made them debunkable from a node, they could die, and they could die quite easily, classes that did more damage became more relevant because of this.

    Then Portal got nerfed to 30 seconds. Now you couldn't even port your Firebrand/Scourge out consistently from a bad fight.
    As a Duo, Firebrand/Scourge didn't mean alot, its just part of the team fight now, not too much more.

    I don't know how OP or anyone in this thread can say Firebrand or Scourge are the issue of why we have this meta, second they aren't even a thing in Ranked, any Firebrand/ Scourge you see will fold to things they shouldn't and will ALWAYS rotate improperly, if not due to their skill and rotational knowledge, because of their other teammates forcing different and improper rotations.

    And last off, Firebrand/Scourge are easily killed and debunked in this current meta, the nerfs they had done to them made this meta what it is, this is why theres 2 Revenant teams in half of the EU rosters, that's why you see less Thieves and instead more Revenants.

    If anything, Firebrand and Scourge should be buffed, it was skillful to have Portal in the game, it was skillful to have a roadblock that took proper rotations to work around.

    Incase you're not talking about 5v5s or Firebrand/Scourge in any regard, and just Firebrand in Ranked, full support Firebrand is VERY bad in ranked, for reasons that it takes high awareness and rotational skill to play properly, and you're made useless when your teammates rotate incorrectly or are picking a bad fight.
    DPS Hybrid Support Firebrand is very obnoxious, even more so with a Revenant, but not OP, easily killable and punished, its a snowball machine, it might snowball the other team, or it'll feed and you'll get snowballed.

    give fb back its tome reset k thx

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

    Honestly, it's arguable that Guardian Support/Necro Boon Conversion have always been 2 parts of the trinity since day one. They've always been present in winning teams. The only time this was not true, was when Ele briefly took over support role. The 3rd part of the trinity, has never really solidified.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Grimjack.8130 said:

    give fb back its tome reset k thx

    Renewed focus works on the books.

    Renewed Justice still works on Tomb of Justice

    Lore master got chopped from 33% to 20% in PvP. (doesn't seem it was ever free full rc)

    What reset?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    Rants like this from players who most likely have never played the actual class, but happened to come across a good FB player/duo so they couldn't insta pew-pew them, lead to kitten unnecessary nerfs to classes, as it seems like the devs "balance" the classes based on the amount of "NERF CLASS XXX" threads on forums.

    Imagine a world where one simple and rather neutral sentence is considered a rant.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Grimjack.8130 said:

    give fb back its tome reset k thx

    Renewed focus works on the books.

    Renewed Justice still works on Tomb of Justice

    Lore master got chopped from 33% to 20% in PvP. (doesn't seem it was ever free full rc)

    What reset?

    I assume you do not play FB. Neither FB support or sage FB use renewed focus. Renewed justice is a PvE thing. And no FB build runs it (radiance) anyway. The CDs of ToR and ToC were increased around Nov of last year. Obviously, was not enough to put FB support in line.

    FB needs a curb to its ability to provide aoe boons. Especially stability.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Grimjack.8130 said:

    give fb back its tome reset k thx

    Renewed focus works on the books.

    Renewed Justice still works on Tomb of Justice

    Lore master got chopped from 33% to 20% in PvP. (doesn't seem it was ever free full rc)

    What reset?

    I assume you do not play FB. Neither FB support or sage FB use renewed focus. Renewed justice is a PvE thing. And no FB build runs it (radiance) anyway. The CDs of ToR and ToC were increased in sPvP around Nov of last year. Obviously, was not enough to put FB support in line.

    FB needs a curb to its ability to provide aoe boons. Especially stability.

    I was simply asking what reset he was talking about.

    I don't play it competitively, but I learn all classes in unranked.

    The forums, unlike what some may believe, is not my first stop in figuring out my problems.

    TBH, firebrand isn't that big of a problem for me.

    Maybe the hybrid dps firebrand is kind of toxic though...

    I don't mind people snarling up at me if I am asking the questions other might be afraid to.

    Anyways....

    This thread was more of a response to the constant whining about necro (which I actually do not play).

    I feel like necro is in fine spot, maybe a little weak when by themselves.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81436/2-necros-in-every-game-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this#latest

    I wouldn't mind if they enhanced the other supports like tempest or druid.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    We have a game not designed for a trinity, yet one of the deities has been present since PoF release.

    A full blown healer shouldn't of ever been in this game. It betrays GW2 founding principles. If they want it to continue in game then they should allow all the other stuff they were against having too i.e casting bars.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    Has always been. But they're afraid to nerf FB, because unless a support is massively broken, a majority of players will not play it. Goes for any PvP game, really.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 I am a guardian main, and I find FB support to be the biggest issue in sPvP right now. Many of the complaints around necro and rev are actually FB issues. Healing is typically not an issue for most builds. So, the healing FB support provides is not why it is strong. It is the other defensive buffs that neutralizes most of allies weakness. To be fair, it is not as broken as it was in the past.

    As for sage FB, it is a different topic. I still have not came to a solid conclusion in its regard. Is it OP, meta or viable? I cannot tell. Its ability to dish deliberating condis is unparalleled. Forget mesmer silly interruption build. One axe + mantra of truth is blindness + chill + cripple + weakness and of course burn and bleed. The enemy has usually around 0.5 sec to break CC. If they do not they must instantly disengage or major condi cleanse. And this can hit 3 targets. I still think its viability and high level stuff is questionable, but this is probably the build you can most 1v2 or 1v3. Scrapper and SB can stale. But this can literally win.. It also doubles up with FB support. So, if your team has an FB support, you can just play as if you are a scourge. You cannot corrupt boons, but if your support FB is competent, you become nearly unkillable. Nothing beats 5-6 aegis in 10 sec...

    With nerfs to almost everything except ele this patch, it could go up the chain. Will see..

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Courageous_Return @Crab Fear.1624 Prenerf every rez every 30 seconds would give you F3 back, now its only 10 seconds off the CD.

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    Firebrand carries bad teams like you're supposed to do if you're any good in ranked, so its....OP...

    ohhhh

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe buff the other supports, better auras for tempest, some boon removal on ventari, more group oriented scrapper gyros which are work better with people and are kinda bad solo so no brain dead bunkering, rework on druid so its more teamfight oriented instead of being a brick on the side node, maybe turn the pet into celestial when entering the mode so you get conduit rotating around you for better support stuff.
    The problem here is that the classes don't have defined role while Firebrand has and everything else is bad in comparison, maybe the other stuff should do 1 special thing that makes them better then the rest.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grimjack.8130 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Courageous_Return @Crab Fear.1624 Prenerf every rez every 30 seconds would give you F3 back, now its only 10 seconds off the CD.

    Ah, thanks for the info.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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