Best way to balance specializations and core professions is...

[Crypto.7609]

Allow everyone, cores and elites, use all weapons and utilities. For example core necro/reaper can use sourge utilities+torch.This would remove the huge, incomparable advantages that elites provide compared to other options and will make this game MUUUUCH easier to balance since you guys can then start nerfing individual weapons/traits/utilities without considering the elite spec as a whole.It's really obvious you guys are in balancing hell right now and this change can help making it much easier to keep an equal playing field.

[Dreddo.9865]

Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

[derd.6413]

there can't be an unbalanced professions when there are no professions

[Stand The Wall.6987]

would be cool lol.

[Crypto.7609]

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

That doesnt lead to balance cos not all top 50 people play all 9 classes.For example for necro players most op classes are ranged mesmer, ranger and thief buids, for mesmers its melle consume plasma thief, for tank rangers and warriors its corrupt boon necroes and so on. So basically everyone is op for everyone in circular way.Only players who play all 9 classess can come close to comprehening balance.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

No game in the history of human kind has ever achieved balance this way.

[Dreddo.9865]

@Crypto.7609 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

That doesnt lead to balance cos not all top 50 people play all 9 classes.For example for necro players most op classes are ranged mesmer, ranger and thief buids, for mesmers its melle consume plasma thief, for tank rangers and warriors its corrupt boon necroes and so on. So basically everyone is op for everyone in circular way.Only players who play all 9 classess can come close to comprehening balance.

On the contrary most top players know exactly how things work and are honest enough to admit balance irregularities even those concerning their classes.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

No game in the history of human kind has ever achieved balance this way.How are you so sure of that statement? There are examples out there (like ESO) and personally I have been playing Lineage2 in the past (another NCSoft owned title) with a PTS. All content was tested by players (anyone could do that) before release and feedback was given to the developers, thus adjustments were done before the content was released. While a different PvP system (and a far lower player base) the PvP balance was decent without those 'exaggerations' and 'meme builds' found here.

[Handin.4032]

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

How do you get the top 50? Top 50 pvp? So then the balance might be decent for Pvp but horrible for WvW or PvE. How do you get top 50 in PvE? Or top 50 in WvW?

[Aeolus.3615]

@"Dreddo.9865" said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

what top 50 ?? xD

being top in this game is a "mirage".´did we sudently start talkign about gw1 top groups?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Crypto.7609 said:Allow everyone, cores and elites, use all weapons and utilities. For example core necro/reaper can use sourge utilities+torch.This would remove the huge, incomparable advantages that elites provide compared to other options and will make this game MUUUUCH easier to balance since you guys can then start nerfing individual weapons/traits/utilities without considering the elite spec as a whole.

This makes no sense at all.

First off, your base assumption of having core specializations balanced with elite specializations already makes balancing more complex. Currently core specializations are not being balanced for (yes, there is 1-2 which work, but in general elite specializations replace core for their respective role). Meaning most classes need to get balanced around 2 elite specializations. Increasing this to 3 (core+2 elites) is already more work.

Now you could argue that core and elite specialziations should not vary in power, but that is a different issue and definately a lot more complex and difficult to achieve then what we have currently.

Second, you increase the base amount of weapons which need to get balanced instead of keeping certain weapon combinations impossible. The math makes no sense here. Increasing the amount of variables one needs to balance around makes things harder, not easier. You argue that this would get countered by the ease of balance because now weapons would not be needed to be so powerful because they are not exclusive to elite specializations. Most elite specializations are superior to their core builds not due to weapons alone. They are a part of the factor. Suffice to say this has been brought up in the past and usually most people have never actually considered what certain elite weapons being available at all time means. My favorit is shield on Mirage by the way. The net result is a lot more balance put on the traits and utilities while ALSO now balancing for a larger pool of core weapons.

That is nuts.

Should we ever get a 3rd elite specializations I fully expect core builds to become completely irrelevant, as it should be balance wise. Everything else is beyond impossible to balance for.

[aelska.4609]

Replacing entirely the balance team.

[Vancho.8750]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Crypto.7609 said:Allow everyone, cores and elites, use all weapons and utilities. For example core necro/reaper can use sourge utilities+torch.This would remove the huge, incomparable advantages that elites provide compared to other options and will make this game MUUUUCH easier to balance since you guys can then start nerfing individual weapons/traits/utilities without considering the elite spec as a whole.

This makes no sense at all.

First off, your base assumption of having core specializations balanced with elite specializations already makes balancing more complex. Currently core specializations are not being balanced for (yes, there is 1-2 which work, but in general elite specializations replace core for their respective role). Meaning most classes need to get balanced around 2 elite specializations. Increasing this to 3 (core+2 elites) is already more work.

Now you could argue that core and elite specialziations should not vary in power, but that is a different issue and definately a lot more complex and difficult to achieve then what we have currently.

Second, you increase the base amount of weapons which need to get balanced instead of keeping certain weapon combinations impossible. The math makes no sense here. Increasing the amount of variables one needs to balance around makes things harder, not easier. You argue that this would get countered by the ease of balance because now weapons would not be needed to be so powerful because they are not exclusive to elite specializations. Most elite specializations are superior to their core builds not due to weapons alone. They are a part of the factor. Suffice to say this has been brought up in the past and usually most people have never actually considered what certain elite weapons being available at all time means. My favorit is shield on Mirage by the way. The net result is a lot more balance put on the traits and utilities while ALSO now balancing for a larger pool of core weapons.

That is nuts.

Should we ever get a 3rd elite specializations I fully expect core builds to become completely irrelevant, as it should be balance wise. Everything else is beyond impossible to balance for.I think when they add 3rd elite speck they can make each one focused to specific strength of the class, so when used with the co-responding cor traitline it makes the class good at single defined task with some upgrades.Every time they ad specks they make it do everything since its the new toy and all, but for example if they made scourge support support and not amalgamation of everything it would great but it would leave empty space for condition speck, since they moved reaper to be power type necromancer, so the next one could possibly make way to clean up the current elites.That leaves core not that great, but i think it shouldn't be, the core traitlines should be somewhat streamlined like every profession would get one support, one condition, one defensive and one power oriented traitline that increases their innate class powers. I think even that they should rebalance the elites to work without the mandatory special powers traitline and make that one an elite speck on its own.

[Axl.8924]

I think we should have one staff member of the game play a class and have 1 of each play it and nothing but it so we can get someone who truly understands each class and able to fix it.

I think also having all weapons in the game available to core could be game breaking, besides specific spec elite weapons should stay there.

[Daishi.6027]

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions

Do you mean the top 50 of their respective class/build mains? Or just the top 50?

There are many build archetypes that are not represented at high end, I don't just flat out trust the 50 who don't play, or use it to just decide what would be fair for it.On top of that, top 50 can be over represented by particular classes and builds and just be biased.

But hey if you can get top 50 of both power + condi specs, and Damage + bunker of another you might get some good discussion, maybe. But I don't think that is feasible unless they were given some private forum only they could post in but the public could read. I doubt any game would ever do that.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

Majority rules, and a majority of those players play or played Holo, SB, SLB, Rev, and Scrapper. That means classes that don't get a lot of representation will get even less representation.

Plus, most of those people would probably only seek to balance the game in a way that makes it easiest for them to farm rank on their profession with their DuoQ partner.

Not to mention top 50 is technically like top 40. You'd be giving people multiple votes because of all the alts and paid boosted accounts.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Crypto.7609 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

That doesnt lead to balance cos not all top 50 people play all 9 classes.For example for necro players most op classes are ranged mesmer, ranger and thief buids, for mesmers its melle consume plasma thief, for tank rangers and warriors its corrupt boon necroes and so on. So basically everyone is op for everyone in circular way.Only players who play all 9 classess can come close to comprehening balance.

On the contrary most top players know exactly how things work and are honest enough to admit balance irregularities even those concerning their classes.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

No game in the history of human kind has ever achieved balance this way.How are you so sure of that statement? There are examples out there (like ESO) and personally I have been playing Lineage2 in the past (another NCSoft owned title) with a PTS. All content was tested by players (anyone could do that) before release and feedback was given to the developers, thus adjustments were done before the content was released. While a different PvP system (and a far lower player base) the PvP balance was decent without those 'exaggerations' and 'meme builds' found here.

Lineage 2? Seriously? Lineage 2 was a game where you could dump buffs onto a specific class and watch as said class solo'd hundreds of players at once.

[Exedore.6320]

@Axl.8924 said:I think we should have one staff member of the game play a class and have 1 of each play it and nothing but it so we can get someone who truly understands each class and able to fix it.The same developer did Tempest and Weaver specs for elementalist. The only spec he worked on for PoF was Weaver. Careful what you wish for...

[Axl.8924]

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Axl.8924 said:I think we should have one staff member of the game play a class and have 1 of each play it and nothing but it so we can get someone who truly understands each class and able to fix it.The same developer did Tempest and Weaver specs for elementalist. The only spec he worked on for PoF was Weaver. Careful what you wish for...

I just want to make sure people actually test this, and does the person even play ele? because some changes to weaver make me question since you got some people unhappy with the way weaver was treated.

[Dreddo.9865]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Lineage 2? Seriously? Lineage 2 was a game where you could dump buffs onto a specific class and watch as said class solo'd hundreds of players at once.You are describing a situation where a high level, equipped player can punish a group of inferior (level, equipment) players. I speak of the Olympiad (1v1 PvP tournament) where on same level (equipment was still important) some nice and balanced duels were taking place. Rotating your skills properly, kiting, using LOS, basically most things used here were valid there as well.

Now look at the contradiction. We see in WvW equal level and almost equal quality of equipment players and I dare say most of the times of close skill or game knowledge level, being trolled by the class balance design of gw2. Like soulbeasts one shotting people with the mount attack skill. Is this kind of balance ok for you?

It is no wonder this has put people away from the competitive mods. WvW is almost dry of people and PvP is in no better situation - was watching Sindrener stream being drawn with low plat, gold enemies. That's where we are atm and I bet you can imagine how this ends.

PS - just research how many developers work on Lineage2 for like the past 7 years and compare this to gw2, you 're gonna be laughing hard :)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Stop.Nerfing.Core.Traits/Skills.When.It's.The.Elite.Spec.That.Is.The.Problem.

Really is that simple. If the balance team took this into greater consideration Elite specs would be balanced with core specs within a few balance patches.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Stop.Nerfing.Core.Traits/Skills.When.It's.The.Elite.Spec.That.Is.The.Problem.

Really is that simple. If the balance team took this into greater consideration Elite specs would be balanced with core specs within a few balance patches.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

also stop trying to reinvent the wheel every single damn time.

[otto.5684]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:also stop trying to reinvent the wheel every single kitten time.

Right? If you consider the time sunk on scraper to make a... tank! As supposed to what is it now exactly... Complete waste of time.

[Yannir.4132]

@Dreddo.9865 said:Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

Those top 50 people include some real toxic trolly a-wholes so no thanks. There's no credential that guarantees a good balance opinion.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Get rid of the elite specs and use only core and balance that.