So, herald and the elite spec "trade-off"

[Justine.6351]

So what kind of monkey changes to herald should we expect in the future to make core specs look more appealing?

"As we continue to add tradeoffs to equipping elite specializations we decided with herald that it's energy costs were too cheap. While we don't want to ruin glint legend by increasing energy pip costs on those skills we decided that adding energy costs to them would be appropriate. Also as these skills will still be fairly cheap we are going to increase legend swap cooldown to help balance out that energy cost and add 1 energy gain Everytime you hit with an autoattack. The herald will now benefit from a more cerebral useage of their energy system and autoattacks as originally intended. With these changes to energy we also reduced cooldowns on a couple ventari skills nobody cares about as compensation. We look forward to seeing you theory craft your new core ventari bunker builds!"

[rdigeri.7935]

Rev got a different treatment, they gave core a unique mechanic so there shouldn't be any elite tradeoffs.

[Yasai.3549]

What rdigeri said. ^

Instead, Anet seems totally fine with gutting Core Legends instead, and the rate we are going, Impossible Odds might just end up as a stupid -6 Upkeep cost extra strike.

People have been begging Anet to please please look at weapons, balance them before touching legends, but they keep flipping nerfing our Legends.

Okay, sure we have access to 10 Utilities, but when yu slap heavy Energy costs to them, the same Energy which powers weapon attacks, then proceed to slap cooldowns ontop of that, AND nerf these utilities down, we are gonna end up with a Revenant with 10 "okay utilities" but with ridiculous Energy costs, causing the entire class to break down and die.

[Buran.3796]

@Justine.6351 said:So what kind of monkey changes to herald should we expect in the future to make core specs look more appealing?

If you remove Herald from the game I'll just stop playing the class (and the game). Core Rev has nothing distinctive compared to other classes: is bad at being a bunker, is mediocre at condition damage and at power dps burst, is weak in terms of support (and at this point is not like Herald is great at support, also).

If I want to play condi I can use a burn Guard: lacks balance and isn't a serious build, but is fun; if I want to play a bunker I can go full nomad Guard (again, is meme, but works x4 better than anything related to Jalis, Rev is amongst the worst classes to make a bruiser in the game); if I want to support I'll just run a Firebrand. Nerfing Herald wouldn't make core Rev more appealing, because core Rev is boring and dull.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Clearly a sarcasm thread for anyone not getting that

[Justine.6351]

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:Clearly a sarcasm thread for anyone not getting that

Partially.

I really do think there will be more incoming energy/cd/rework nerfs for rev, intentional or not. And herald no energy cost "consume" skills are really vulnerable because it breaks the "rev is balanced around energy mechanic" ideal if you take a step back and look at it.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Justine.6351 said:

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:Clearly a sarcasm thread for anyone not getting that

Partially.

I really do think there will be more incoming energy/cd/rework nerfs for rev, intentional or not. And herald no energy cost "consume" skills are really vulnerable because it breaks the "rev is balanced around energy mechanic" ideal if you take a step back and look at it.

Yeah, I wish you were wrong about this, but you're likely not :/

[Yasai.3549]

Core specs will never look interesting if they keep nerfing them.

There I said it.

Mallyx doesn't even feel even remotely like a Condition manipulator anymore, rather just some bitch which pulls Condis in and then sits on them and smile while slowly dying when Resistance runs out.

Ventari is just a boring AoE healer.

Jalis doesn't tank anything, doesn't shield anything, he just persists as a rock, and a very immobile rock.

Shiro has been gutted over the years, and despite that, remain popular because he is the only Legend which actually feels like he has a role and place in the game (as an assassin)

Glint and Kalla are just "unique" as Elite specs tend to be, having more depth but as a result, end up defining Revenant instead of being a special specialization.

Revenant is just a full blown mess.

[Burtnik.5218]

@Yasai.3549 said:Shiro has been gutted over the years, and despite that, remain popular because he is the only Legend which actually feels like he has a role and place in the game (as an assassin)

Shiro is popular bc he has reliable stunbreak (with free dodge) unlike other core legends and mobility. Give mobility to any other legend+reliable stunbreak and nobody would pick Shiro ever again.

[Catchyfx.5768]

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Shiro has been gutted over the years, and despite that, remain popular because he is the only Legend which actually feels like he has a role and place in the game (as an assassin)

Shiro is popular bc he has reliable stunbreak (with free dodge) unlike other core legends and mobility. Give mobility to any other legend+reliable stunbreak and nobody would pick Shiro ever again.

Exactly this, lets just see.-You use shiro stunbreak+move away+evade while doing this+25endurance for free+gets fury+cure movement condis=30 energy-You use mallyx stunbreak+get resistance2s+1s for every condi on you=30 energyTOTAL LMAO

Shiro utilities work even if you fail.-You use Jalis taunt and enemy dodged that? You losed cc skill and 10 energy.-Did you use shiro blink and enemy dodge that? Its ok cuz you still moved 1200 units.

Same reason with sword offhand×shield. For surviving sword is better because even if you are out of range you move. You use shield, you most likely die, because enemies catch you.+ sword gives you more preasure to force enemies to be defensive.

And those mightgeneration nerfing only kill all meme builds like devastation/retribution/herald and force you to play that exact burst +1 meta shiro glint build. Because no 25might on rev = no dmg on rev. Bye bye build diversity.

[Burtnik.5218]

@Catchyfx.5768 said:

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Shiro has been gutted over the years, and despite that, remain popular because he is the only Legend which actually feels like he has a role and place in the game (as an assassin)

Shiro is popular bc he has reliable stunbreak (with free dodge) unlike other core legends and mobility. Give mobility to any other legend+reliable stunbreak and nobody would pick Shiro ever again.

Exactly this, lets just see.-You use shiro stunbreak+move away+evade while doing this+25endurance for free+gets fury+cure movement condis=30 energy-You use mallyx stunbreak+get resistance2s+1s for every condi on you=30 energyTOTAL LMAO

Shiro utilities work even if you fail.-You use Jalis taunt and enemy dodged that? You losed cc skill and 10 energy.-Did you use shiro blink and enemy dodge that? Its ok cuz you still moved 1200 units.

Same reason with sword offhand×shield. For surviving sword is better because even if you are out of range you move. You use shield, you most likely die, because enemies catch you.+ sword gives you more preasure to force enemies to be defensive.

And those mightgeneration nerfing only kill all meme builds like devastation/retribution/herald and force you to play that exact burst +1 meta shiro glint build. Because no 25might on rev = no dmg on rev. Bye bye build diversity.

The answer is obvious. Time to nerf ShiroSigned,Balance team :)

[Yasai.3549]

Shiro nerfs :

Enchanted Daggers : base heal removed.

Phase Traversal : 10 second cooldown

Repositing Shadows : 50 fuccing energy bois

Impossible Odds : 50% chance to double strike :^)

Jade Winds : 100 fuccing energy bois

[draxynnic.3719]

@rdigeri.7935 said:Rev got a different treatment, they gave core a unique mechanic so there shouldn't be any elite tradeoffs.

This. I think they even specified at the time that their reasoning was that they felt that taking something away from herald or renegade wasn't appropriate so they added something to core revenant instead.

[narcx.3570]

@"Justine.6351" said:So what kind of monkey changes to herald should we expect in the future to make core specs look more appealing?

I mean, technically by going Herald or Renegade you're now giving up the ability to regenerate 25 energy and camp legends longer. It's just Core Rev had literally no class mechanic to it before aside from the legend swap, so they had to add something to it that could be given up as a trade off?

I don't think they'll mess with legend swaps directly, because their trend with Revenant seems to be like "your elite spec will give you access to another stance and will affect how your f2-5 skills function." But then again, a lot of things they do don't follow their own rules anyways, so who knows what kind of gross and nonsensical change they can whip out to crush Heralds' dreams. "Every time you consume a facet, 2 seconds is added onto your legend swap and all of your weapon skills go on a 2 second cooldown."

[Aeolus.3615]

@rdigeri.7935 said:Rev got a different treatment, they gave core a unique mechanic so there shouldn't be any elite tradeoffs.

That energy gain is a nice boost lol

Maybe issue is player cant find a rotation and most don’t know how to use legends due being searching for the rotation gimmick key order rather than see how rev legends are to be played according the “need of the momentum”.

[Burtnik.5218]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:Rev got a different treatment, they gave core a unique mechanic so there shouldn't be any elite tradeoffs.

That energy gain is a nice boost lol

Maybe issue is player cant find a rotation and most don’t know how to use legends due being searching for the rotation gimmick key order rather than see how rev legends are to be played according the “need of the momentum”.

Useless energy when everything has cooldown

[Yasai.3549]

I actually play Core rev in WvW roaming, and it's really good.

25 energy aside to fuel upkeeps or a burst of energy to complete a combo, Jalis Echo gives a 3 sec Rite which is huge for surviving a heavy burst of damage and Shiro Echo gives Unblockable stacks which yu can stack up with Malicious Reprisal and PT to make Shackling Wave fully unblockable ( which is hilarious vs Warriors when they realize they sat still with shield up to allow the full burst)

Also my kill combo is a very nasty CC chain which starts with Jalis Taunt directly into Death Strike > Legend Swap > Jade Winds for more Vuln stacks > Echo and Shackling Wave during aftercast.

Because Core Rev lacks the Might stacks to blow someone up, stacking CC and Vuln this way allows yu to blow up a healthy target with little retaliation.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:Rev got a different treatment, they gave core a unique mechanic so there shouldn't be any elite tradeoffs.

That energy gain is a nice boost lol

Maybe issue is player cant find a rotation and most don’t know how to use legends due being searching for the rotation gimmick key order rather than see how rev legends are to be played according the “need of the momentum”.

Useless energy when everything has cooldown

Well deppends, rev mechanics are gw1 based só imo that’s ok, some skills actually are energy heavy and weak, for example shiro skills m8 needs some energy cost slightly reduced and it’s heal skill needs improvements.

[Alik.9651]

@Yasai.3549 said:Shiro nerfs :

Enchanted Daggers : base heal removed.

Phase Traversal : 10 second cooldown

Repositing Shadows : 50 fuccing energy bois

Impossible Odds : 50% chance to double strike :^)

Jade Winds : 100 fuccing energy bois

NoNo, it should be like this :pEnchanted Daggers: Summon enchanted daggers that will attack as you attack with a dagger, siphoning life from targets hit.Phase Traversal: Step through the Mists to your target. Chance you will stuck in the Mists. Your next few attacks can't be blocked and deal increased damage.Riposting Shadows: Dodge backward through the Mists and come out at a random location, possible radius -1200~1200. Remove movement-impairing conditions, and gain fury.Impossible Odds: Empower yourself with Shiro's incredible speed and destructive prowess, gaining great movement speed and striking foes an additional time with the chance like you got Crystal Infusion from the Dragon Coffers when you hit them.Jade Winds: Call upon the Jade Wind to turn nearby enemies into jade, stunning with them for a short duration.

[Burtnik.5218]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:Rev got a different treatment, they gave core a unique mechanic so there shouldn't be any elite tradeoffs.

That energy gain is a nice boost lol

Maybe issue is player cant find a rotation and most don’t know how to use legends due being searching for the rotation gimmick key order rather than see how rev legends are to be played according the “need of the momentum”.

Useless energy when everything has cooldown

Well deppends, rev mechanics are gw1 based só imo that’s ok, some skills actually are energy heavy and weak, for example shiro skills m8 needs some energy cost slightly reduced and it’s heal skill needs improvements.

Its not ok when the class was never supposed to have cooldowns on utility skills in the first place, save for small cds on powerful ones like Jade Winds. That was the whole point of energy system, to have reverse mechanic to thief weapon skills having no cooldowns

[Aeolus.3615]

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:Rev got a different treatment, they gave core a unique mechanic so there shouldn't be any elite tradeoffs.

That energy gain is a nice boost lol

Maybe issue is player cant find a rotation and most don’t know how to use legends due being searching for the rotation gimmick key order rather than see how rev legends are to be played according the “need of the momentum”.

Useless energy when everything has cooldown

Well deppends, rev mechanics are gw1 based só imo that’s ok, some skills actually are energy heavy and weak, for example shiro skills m8 needs some energy cost slightly reduced and it’s heal skill needs improvements.

Its not ok when the class was never supposed to have cooldowns on utility skills in the first place, save for small cds on powerful ones like Jade Winds. That was the whole point of energy system, to have reverse mechanic to thief weapon skills having no

I think Anet did that to help players, it’s helps the e-management rather than spam everything then QQ spec is useless and broken, to avoid that player behavior. minimal cds were given