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Upcoming Engineer Balance Changes


Vagrant.7206

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@raykor.6723 said:I read the notes again and again and I don't see one single change to Scrapper that is anything other than a nerf. Was Scrapper really this broken class that needed such a drastic overhaul? I don't understand what they were thinking.

And after 7 years they decided the Engineer's rifle was so OP it need three skills nerfed as well?

You know whats funny though, anyone that isn't a scrapper/engi main, thinks its all a buff.And no, I'm dead serious. Sitting pvp chat talking to some people. I mean, they see the hit to vitality but the rest they think is a buff....

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@RoterFuchs.9216 said:

@DinoStone.2485 said:I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

I didn't notice the function gyro for a long time after I had started playing scrapper. So yes, it's a horrible profession mechanic.

It was a great profession mechanic in all game modes. Blatantly favor pvp and wvw, bull kitten. Rezzing people is only a pvp/wvw thing right? Just had someone post how they run fractals with pug groups and it works great. But now they will be able to rez much less often and in key situations.

Once I started playing scrapper I had to look it up and see how Scrap would down me with gyro, but once I figured that out, it's great.You not noticing it---says more about you than the skill. Do you ever rez/stomp?

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Just tried to fight 3 Stonemist guards in my full celestial scrapper and almost died. I don't like to complain and I will not do this in this post, but we are living interesting times my friends. I think we will soon be one once again an endangered profession. At least till they figure all this and repair the damage.

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:@Vagrant.7206

All the talk about drunk scrapper, I pulled up the Drunk Scrapper build and ran that a game.I had no idea what I was doing. But people died...and well, being a meme build, so did I :P

Yeah, drunk scrapper is pretty silly, and @Ivantreil.3092 invented it. I suspect this change may make it stronger than it's been in a while, but I could also be wrong.

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I tried to make the new scrapper work, on an existing power scrapper build. Here's the thing : I do get an almost Constant barrier on my scrapper so long as I dish out the pain with my Hammer. Damage's not bad.

But I took -1- crit from a couple veteran mobs, and half of my health was gone, including the barrier. So no. Nope. Never. Not viable. 300 vit is too much, and it does impact barrier as well, it's counterproductive.

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Yeah the only buff was superspeed on any leap and any blast not reliiant on lightning fields. I guess the barrier is a buff? to engineers who played without the passive barrier trait. I personally used Kinetic Stabilizers before but it lost its 10% dmg modifier. WHY? My scrapper now has NO DAMAGE MODIFIERS. Wtf Anet? Oh sure the damage modifier that is reliant on superspeed, stability and swiftness. Meaning it's really a 5% modifier at best.

Wow. 5% damage modifier. Scrapper already hit low before. Even elementalist has more damage modifiers than engineer. We have one on the tools minor and the explosives minor. You even took away the tool kit 10% modifier lol. So our best potential damage at a sacrifice of everything else is 20% - which would also require the opponent to have vulnerability on them and you to have vigor on you.

This patch removed 10% damage on hammer and 10% damage with kinetic stabilizers AND 5% damage with impact savant.Oh and it also removed bonus power based on toughness. WOW

I seriously doubt I'll return to this game now. Just wow. No one even commplained about our damage since it sucked already. It was the survivability they hated. Wtf are you even doing?

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@Cuilan.7091 said:Overall these changes are rather half-baked and definitely need more thought and care in some of the numbers and designs. I really wish Anet would talk actually players that use scrapper instead of taking guesses of what the Class should do.

But taking guesses of what the class should do is their speciality right? I mean take a look at berserker rework. They are happy when they have to take guesses but too bad their guesses mostly wrong.

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@Trollocks.5084 said:Welp, that -300 vitatlity is probably the biggest slap in the face. Scrapper is completely dead.

Nah. It's still pretty good, in fact. It encourages bruiser builds rather than having unkillable power builds which is much more engaging than being able to deal damage and have nothing to compensate for.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@Trollocks.5084 said:Welp, that -300 vitatlity is probably the biggest slap in the face. Scrapper is completely dead.

Nah. It's still pretty good, in fact. It encourages bruiser builds rather than having unkillable power builds which is much more engaging than being able to deal damage and have nothing to compensate for.

Bruiser that has to build for even more HP than before (meaning damage loss) and also lost 25% damage and around 200 power if you built for the bruiser playstyle before.

Yeah it's dead. But so is holosmith because of constant nerfs. Engineer as a whole is dead except for superspeed bots.

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@"Naxos.2503" said:I tried to make the new scrapper work, on an existing power scrapper build. Here's the thing : I do get an almost Constant barrier on my scrapper so long as I dish out the pain with my Hammer. Damage's not bad.

But I took -1- crit from a couple veteran mobs, and half of my health was gone, including the barrier. So no. Nope. Never. Not viable. 300 vit is too much, and it does impact barrier as well, it's counterproductive.

They shouldnt take any vitality---and just leave the buff."Tradeoffs" is the dumbest idea they've implemented so far. It started with druid pets and was a terrible idea.

I played 4 pvp games as bunk/heals.It felt mostly the same. A bit less survivability. When I needed that last little bit to live or get away--Nope. It wasn't there.3k hitpoints is a pretty big deal.

The new f5, while it's not horrible is a huge nerf.Rezzes and stomps happen all the time, so the cooldown is a huge nerf.It wants to effect my other f1-f4? Why? Imagine eles not being able to switch attunements.

The gyros get destroyed by damage. So when you really need them they aren't there.The rez potential on a ranger can't be destroyed. You can't break their trait for a faster rez.But evidently, since this patch, you can break an engies ability to rez/stomp.

Scourge and Dragonhunter sure have insta rez'sAnets golden babies.

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I've played this game since release and the -300 vitality is one of the downright STUPIDEST thing i've ever seen in a balance patch. Completely inane decisions. It costs guardians a Grandmaster to get +300 vit but we get the opposite done to us as a kitten baseline.

Arenanet this is actually one of your stupidest moves yet... you actually push people from the game with ridiculous changes

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Just finished our WvW guild raid.It was troubling running around with 14k HP, but the 20% dmg delay made me tankier than our guards.Heal is still as high (got up to 14khps at one time), function gyro much easier to use, Superspeed almost 100% uptime.Function gyros seem to have less HP (single-hit by rev), though. Cleanse is untouched.

So, as a zerg-supporter it's even a bit better now in my opinion.Rapid-regen triggered MDF was "only" around 2khps after all...

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"Using a leap finisher grants you superspeed""Using a blast finisher applies superspeed around you"

I was expecting to get superspeed without having to use combo fields when reading that. When I use rocket charge the second leap finisher only adds 1 second of superspeed, shouldn't that be 5 seconds? ( same happens when using 2 different skills in the same combo field , you need to use a fresh combo field to get the full 5 seconds it seems)

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@"Dediggefedde.4961" said:Just finished our WvW guild raid.It was troubling running around with 14k HP, but the 20% dmg delay made me tankier than our guards.Heal is still as high (got up to 14khps at one time), function gyro much easier to use, Superspeed almost 100% uptime.Function gyros seem to have less HP (single-hit by rev), though. Cleanse is untouched.

So, as a zerg-supporter it's even a bit better now in my opinion.Rapid-regen triggered MDF was "only" around 2khps after all...

Yes, superspeed bot is the engineer role now.

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@"Dediggefedde.4961" said:Just finished our WvW guild raid.It was troubling running around with 14k HP, but the 20% dmg delay made me tankier than our guards.Heal is still as high (got up to 14khps at one time), function gyro much easier to use, Superspeed almost 100% uptime.Function gyros seem to have less HP (single-hit by rev), though. Cleanse is untouched.

So, as a zerg-supporter it's even a bit better now in my opinion.Rapid-regen triggered MDF was "only" around 2khps after all...

in pvp my thing is this...

Against certain builds, I would never die BUT they were sustain tanky builds like mine.

The classes that did give me trouble, Revs, Reapers other spike dmg classes, they are an even bigger counter to me and I am LESS of a counter to them

Vacuum.<--thats something a lot of players don't understand when they 'wish' or 'ask' for nerfs.There was a knee jerk reaction to 'nerf scrapper' for one week, maybe two and then everyone learned how to deal with them.

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@Curennos.9307 said:The -300 vitality is absolutely ridiculous. It feels like they couldn't come up with anything more imaginative so we get a copy/paste from zerker.

It doesnt even make sense because we do no damage. Especially now. Why are we losing -300 vitality again? For the part that gives us barrier on damage done?... oh yeah it scales on being able to actually do damage.

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@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:The -300 vitality is absolutely ridiculous. It feels like they couldn't come up with anything more imaginative so we get a copy/paste from zerker.

It doesnt even make sense because we do no damage. Especially now. Why are we losing -300 vitality again? For the part that gives us barrier on damage done?... oh yeah it scales on being able to actually do damage.

Probably because vampiric mechanics (and that's effectively what this is) tend to be very feast or famine. They are very difficult to balance because you're attacking and defending with every action. I'm guessing this was added as a counterbalance against what scrapper could possibly turn into given the barier on hit

.. unfortunately, they effectively kill off any specs that are not able to deal this direct power damage and keep up barrier.

From the sounds of it (I haven't tried yet) it's pretty hard for a power scrapper to make up the difference already.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DinoStone.2485 said:I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

I didn't notice the function gyro for a long time after I had started playing scrapper. So yes, it's a horrible profession mechanic.If they would
just
have changed the gyro - even at the loss of F5 - it wouldnt be too horrible... Unlike this complete meltdown of the traits.

after trying it out, it's actually not that bad of a change to make F5 FG, I actually really like the change in PvP, really useful during tight team fights, way more useful than DP

won about 4-5 team fights in a single match

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@crepuscular.9047 said:

@DinoStone.2485 said:I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

I didn't notice the function gyro for a long time after I had started playing scrapper. So yes, it's a horrible profession mechanic.If they would
just
have changed the gyro - even at the loss of F5 - it wouldnt be too horrible... Unlike this complete meltdown of the traits.

after trying it out, it's actually not that bad of a change to make F5 FG, I actually really like the change in PvP, really useful during tight team fights, way more useful than DP

won about 4-5 team fights in a single matchThats PvP. Presumably the 4-5 team fights didnt involve fighting 25 man guilds that just blasted stealth.
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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DinoStone.2485 said:I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

I didn't notice the function gyro for a long time after I had started playing scrapper. So yes, it's a horrible profession mechanic.If they would
just
have changed the gyro - even at the loss of F5 - it wouldnt be too horrible... Unlike this complete meltdown of the traits.

after trying it out, it's actually not that bad of a change to make F5 FG, I actually really like the change in PvP, really useful during tight team fights, way more useful than DP

won about 4-5 team fights in a single matchThats PvP. Presumably the 4-5 team fights didnt involve fighting 25 man guilds that just blasted stealth.

true, but there are other classes that can do reveal too, like herald revs, which often runs in wvw; scrapper was rarely ran prior to the gyro rework

I think it's totally fine for a class to be bad in a game mode

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@crepuscular.9047 said:

@DinoStone.2485 said:I mostly play PvE, so I can say that the function gyro is bordering on completely useless for me. And now the fact that I need to give up something as big as my elite toolbelt skill for a function gyro that is still practically useless means that the already minority healing scrapper becomes even less useful. If I’m being honest I just want them to remove function gyro and give us a profession mechanic that doesn’t so blatantly favor PvP and WvW.

Even then, I’ve done some of both on my scrapper, and I can say that my toobelt skill (especially detection pulse) has always been more useful to me than the still pretty useless function gyro. Please give us a profession mechanic that works in all game modes, and not one that favors two, and still doesn’t work all that well.

I think that a profession mechanic should be central to a class/elite spec, but I’ve never felt that scrapper’s function gyro is central to the class, or something that I couldn’t picture the class without. Take for example the holosmith. The photon forge/heat is so central to everything about the class, and all the traits, exceed skills, and weapon skills revolve around that. While I’m not saying that scrapper needs to go that far, I’d like to see a profession mechanic that works more like that.

I didn't notice the function gyro for a long time after I had started playing scrapper. So yes, it's a horrible profession mechanic.If they would
just
have changed the gyro - even at the loss of F5 - it wouldnt be too horrible... Unlike this complete meltdown of the traits.

after trying it out, it's actually not that bad of a change to make F5 FG, I actually really like the change in PvP, really useful during tight team fights, way more useful than DP

won about 4-5 team fights in a single matchThats PvP. Presumably the 4-5 team fights didnt involve fighting 25 man guilds that just blasted stealth.

true, but there are other classes that can do reveal too, like herald revs, which often runs in wvw; scrapper was rarely ran prior to the gyro rework

I think it's totally fine for a class to be bad in a game mode

Scrapper is now bad in all game modes, Detection pulse & being survivable in PvP/WvW were the two key things. Better to jump ship & vote with your /played

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:It was a great profession mechanic in all game modes. Blatantly favor pvp and wvw, bull kitten. Rezzing people is only a pvp/wvw thing right? Just had someone post how they run fractals with pug groups and it works great. But now they will be able to rez much less often and in key situations.

Once I started playing scrapper I had to look it up and see how Scrap would down me with gyro, but once I figured that out, it's great.You not noticing it---says more about you than the skill. Do you ever rez/stomp?

My point is that as soon as you step out if a game mode where you need to finish your enemies (pvp wvw) you lose half the use of the function gyro. Also, in something like a raid, you shouldn’t need to res if your supports/healers are doing their job properly. Not saying you never need to res, but in a perfect world you shouldn’t. Not to mention that when you can only res with the function gyro, it basically becomes a discount search and rescue.

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