leunamsil.6742 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I doubt that any dev in Arena Net actually reads the instanced pve forums but i really need to say this. The change you are going to make with Soul Eater will again bench any power reaper from raiding or t4 fractals in a decent level. Without any capability of being healed while in shroud the reaper will have to decide whether to go to RS and continue its rotation or just stay put and wait to be healed, losing A LOT of dps. No other class needs to decide this. And it isn't like we have way more dmg than everyone else so the removal of Soul Eater is a significant nerf to any reaper doing anything but openworld. Please reconcider this, its been ages since power reaper has been decent and capable of raiding and this, if i'm not mistaken, will kill it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leunamsil.6742 Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @leunamsil.6742 said:Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leunamsil.6742 Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 @Vinceman.4572 said:@leunamsil.6742 said:Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.The problem isn't dying, noone dies to that, the problem is you need to interrupt your rotation in order to wait for healing. you can't be healed in shroud and soul eater helped a lot with that. Imagine that a berserker couldn't be healed while in berserker stance, they would have to wait to be healed before entering, therefor messing their rotation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @Dadnir.5038 said:You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring.It was both. Reaper damage was good enough when tied to its susteinability. The same damage levels would not have been good enough on a class that would need to put much more effort to reach them.It's not a class someone would pick for damage alone. Up to now it had the advantage of good survivability, but now it has the disadvantage of not being healable half of the time.Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better.Best reaper players need to be compared to best players using other classes. When you compare to average pugs, you need to look at average reaper players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @leunamsil.6742 said:@Vinceman.4572 said:@leunamsil.6742 said:Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.The problem isn't dying, noone dies to that, the problem is you need to interrupt your rotation in order to wait for healing. you can't be healed in shroud and soul eater helped a lot with that. Imagine that a berserker couldn't be healed while in berserker stance, they would have to wait to be healed before entering, therefor messing their rotationSince you're constantly healed and almost all the time above 90% health due to the need for scholar bonus anyways and you won't lose health in the shroud average reaper players still won't suffer. If you can't maintain IT you should really change out rune of scholar first before thinking of any other part in the build.I really really don't see a problem here for decent and good players. All others need to improve if this is an issue for them because they are literally very bad players. Period.Laughable at best, real laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabenpriester.7129 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I don't see a reason why an average players performance should not be average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah.2967 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @"Dadnir.5038" said:You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better. I am sorry, but it's the healing in Shroud that made it viable. We are the only class with a downside for using our DPS cooldown, and our DPS cooldown must be used to stay bottom tier competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @Josiah.2967 said:@"Dadnir.5038" said:You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better. I am sorry, but it's the healing in Shroud that made it viable. We are the only class with a downside for using our DPS cooldown, and our DPS cooldown must be used to stay bottom tier competitive.That's nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKitty.6120 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @Josiah.2967 said:@"Dadnir.5038" said:You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better. I am sorry, but it's the healing in Shroud that made it viable. We are the only class with a downside for using our DPS cooldown, and our DPS cooldown must be used to stay bottom tier competitive.For those who think healing in Shroud affected its dps majorly due to better scholar uptimes, Reaper was never viable to begin with as that's mostly speedrunner stuff to worry about and those peoples wouldn't run reaper to begin with. Those who wonder if Soul Eater nerf makes reaper unviable have bigger things to worry about as for those who currently think of reaper as viable option, some meager 1-2% difference in dps due to lower scholar uptime isn't a dealbreaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephalem.8921 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Vinceman.4572 said:@Josiah.2967 said:@"Dadnir.5038" said:You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better. I am sorry, but it's the healing in Shroud that made it viable. We are the only class with a downside for using our DPS cooldown, and our DPS cooldown must be used to stay bottom tier competitive.That's nonsense.Then lets remove healing while ranger's sick'em is active. Or weaver gets no heal at all during multi hit attacks. Still nonsense and wouldn't affect good players? Not getting heal in shroud means 10sec+ scholar downtime without any way to get it back.This means almost no scholar uptime in fractals if you get hit once by anything before entering shroud. All the other stuff heals instantly up with kalla active. This change helped a lot for scholar uptime and actually helped the shitty shroud mechanic.It was already hard enough to stay competitive with 100% scholar vs decent players on good professions.How much experience do you have with reaper in fractals/raids though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta.2563 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 It said it would no longer heal while "shroud life" replaces health. Maybe this means it'll give you life force in shroud?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The one to Rule.2593 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 It was already hard enough to stay competitive with 100% scholar vs decent players on good professions.How much experience do you have with reaper in fractals/raids though? Soul eater nerf will hardly change much i think. Also it's laughable that people still think reaper is not a good profession or that it is hard to stay competitive when reapers are almost always top dps in my groups and usually by a good margin. Yeah top guilds like SC won't use reaper, but they never did anyway. FOr any decent reaper this will be no big deal. As for how much experience with reaper I have in raids and fractals, it's my main class for both. Used reaper for the better part of 2 sets of legendary armor and the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @"The one to Rule.2593" said:FOr any decent reaper this will be no big deal. This.I've been advocating for power reaper for a while now and was a fan of power reaper even before the last patch when a lot of necromancer "main" players were still whinning about how useless the class is.The issue with necromancer is, its class mechanic makes it to tanky (which combined with some other necromancer strengths like boon corrupts make it god tier in WvW ever since vanilla). I do not like the interaction of shroud and the necromancer not getting healed, but the fact you can brain afk into just about any damage currently and still survive where other dps players would have been toast is just overkill. For anyone doubting this, maybe give elementalist a go in the current fractal meta and have fun on Sirens Reef with frailty and outflanked.Yes, this means at the top end power reaper falls off. We are talking top 1-5% players and if you think you are part of that group I guarantee you: you are not. People in the top 1-5% know they are in the top and don't come whinning in the forums. They adapt. On top of which if you were playing on that level you wouldn't have been using power reaper in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Godrik.5841 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when shit hits the fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sokeenoppa.5384 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan. Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Godrik.5841 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @sokeenoppa.5384 said:@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan. Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder.3719 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 You are being silly. The nerf to Soul Reaping from two patches ago that makes you choose between 10% damage or vitality and a boost to incoming healing is what nerfed necros in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sokeenoppa.5384 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:@sokeenoppa.5384 said:@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan. Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group?Yes and yes. I dont know how Bad pug groups you join ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @sokeenoppa.5384 said:@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:@sokeenoppa.5384 said:@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan. Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group?Yes and yes. I dont know how Bad pug groups you join ?Agreed, being decent with power reaper in fractals = ez pz last man standing. It's no wonder why many average pug players choose power reaper for their casual t4 runs. DPS is existing and you are tanky af. But it's also no surprise why they do that. From my experience people tank everything they can and aren't familiar with encounters. Plus even obvious indicators are being ignored and sometimes you hear the voice: "Healer, do your job."In raid scenarios it doesn't even matter in the slightest because if a raid group has so many issues with keeping up health bars they should either pick an additional healer or substitute the actual one(s).I mean most pug raids aren't single healing squads and 2 healers must be enough to keep people alive for the overwhelming majority of all raid bosses. One could even pick a third healer for some bosses and still be years ago from reaching the enrage timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 This trait no longer heals while shroud life force replaces health.Tested it after the patch (with open world stuff) and aside from the change mentioned above, the trait function remains the same as before. Just need to get used to no more healing while in shroud eg.10k++ heal with Soul Spiral :confused:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sokeenoppa.5384 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 @Vinceman.4572 said:@sokeenoppa.5384 said:@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:@sokeenoppa.5384 said:@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan. Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group?Yes and yes. I dont know how Bad pug groups you join ?Agreed, being decent with power reaper in fractals = ez pz last man standing. It's no wonder why many average pug players choose power reaper for their casual t4 runs. DPS is existing and you are tanky af. But it's also no surprise why they do that. From my experience people tank everything they can and aren't familiar with encounters. Plus even obvious indicators are being ignored and sometimes you hear the voice: "Healer, do your job."In raid scenarios it doesn't even matter in the slightest because if a raid group has so many issues with keeping up health bars they should either pick an additional healer or substitute the actual one(s).I mean most pug raids aren't single healing squads and 2 healers must be enough to keep people alive for the overwhelming majority of all raid bosses. One could even pick a third healer for some bosses and still be years ago from reaching the enrage timer.Yeah and many Raid bosses deal close to zero dmg to you exept few attacks that you should avoid anyways. Lets take dhuum for example (stupid to play preaper there but anyways), just slack behind the boss and sidestep few AOEs you should be able to go in shroud with full health there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 @Vinceman.4572 said:@leunamsil.6742 said:Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.Doesnt it have to do with not being able to be healed while in sf which means if you get in sf with less than 90% hp u wont have the benefit of scholar dmg buff. Unlike dh or dd which can always be healed.Do correct me if im wrong tho, i dont think this its about dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 @zealex.9410 said:@Vinceman.4572 said:@"leunamsil.6742" said:Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.Doesnt it have to do with not being able to be healed while in sf which means if you get in sf with less than 90% hp u wont have the benefit of scholar dmg buff. Unlike dh or dd which can always be healed.Do correct me if im wrong tho, i dont think this its about dying.It was already pointed out in this thread that experienced players know when crucial damage spikes from bosses occur and how to avoid them so they would actually be aware when to use shroud and maybe when not and delay or wait for steps in their standard rotation.The problem with this change only arises for a certain kind of reaper player: The ones who just brainlessly smashes buttons, did not avoid damage from bosses/mobs and went into shroud with 25% hp for a 2nd hp-bar meanwhile getting healed up. Of course these players will suffer a lot now but that's totally fine since they are not to be rewarded for this play style.Additionally, I've yet to see a fractal group (not to speak about raid groups which - also already mentioned - mostly have 2 dedicated healers in pugs) that is struggling with surviving in the scenario the OP is describing because he is mentioning "...being healed while in shroud.." which means explicitly that there is a healer in the group. So, if you run t4s with a healer and still cannot maintain scholar uptime there are only 2 reaons for it: Your healer is terrible or you are. For the 2nd aspect (since No 1 can only be solved by substituting the healer) it's totally fine if you are able to execute your rotation but that doesn't mean you just stand there doing it, eating all the damage and relying on your healer to be backed up. This is not skillful play, that is what I call overestimated trash and why I have to frown everytime I'm playing a full glass cannon and squishy dps class and have power reapers in my pug group that are struggling very hard or even dying way before me although we have a healer. And tbh this was before the patch.Good players who were/are actually aware of their scholar buff uptime will be as well now, rather avoid getting hit and continue with their rotation in shroud when above the threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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