Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Elite specializations, totally not an addition over core.


Shao.7236

Recommended Posts

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:That's where you're missing the point, you want every good things with no trade off. That's not how you balance a game.

If no F4 is a trade-off, why the heck did they removed IP from chrono, or asking the other way why didn't the other professions get a double trade-off too?

Well, some people believe this is the case.

Some Thieves believe that Swipe is a double trade-off. Most of them conviniently forget about the additional dodge Daredevils gain.Some Druids believe that the stat-debuff on the pets are a double trade-off because they forgo other traitlines. Even though CA clearly is an obvious add on.

I don't mean to judge. Just pointing out that many people still don't get the trade-off thing properly or just don't like it. ;)

Losing F5 and it being merged with F4 for Chronomancers makes sense. Chronomancers get a new set of Shatter skills which work a bit different, plus, they even ensured we will still be able to trigger Distortion related traits on Chronomancers. I personally agree with this change. It is a trade-off if F-skills are not simple upgrades from baseline Shatters. However, that's probably the reason why they got rid of IP. Instead of balancing numbers they wanted to make sure of them not being an upgrade this way. Here I disagree. It is lazy and breaks things an e-spec should not break.

There's not another profession that got double nerfed for a trade-off. Thieves always qq, they got unblockable in trade of 600 range and extra and better dodges.It's one of the lightest nerfs on these trade off deals, in fact they won more than they lost.

Now, if F4 got removed for the f5 only, it still sucks and doesn't make any sense, mechanically speaking, to me but I wouldn't mind. But take out 2 things to give a new thing?In comparison to thieves it would be like we take our F4 but give you F5 and illusionary reversion baseline.

Shatters are essentially the same, F1 damage (will get hotfixed depending on bonus on slow - mental anguish+lost time+superiority complex+bonus on slow for one trick pony), F2 confusion F3 daze. With just a little "mehness" on top F1 extra damage on slow, F2 5sec cdr, F3 slow (redundant as hell with delayed reactions and lost time).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"yusayu.3629" said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:

@"yusayu.3629" said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

They're not, but all such discussions need to keep in mind that there's an inherent tradeoff in that you're giving up a third core traitline, and the mesmer core traitlines are pretty good on the whole. Elite specialisations have brought more, and the current tradeoffs are looking to change that, but even before the current tradeoffs, it was a myth that the elite specialisations had no tradeoffs. It's just that what you gained was usually clearly better than what you gave up, especially on professions which did previously tend to have cases of "these two traitlines have the good stuff and this third one is, well, better than the others I guess..."

Chronos are essentially being given three tradeoffs - the loss of a core traitline, the loss of Distortion (merging it into CS is not the same thing), and the loss of Illusionary Persona.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:

@"yusayu.3629" said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession.There is many examples where you have close to no trade off or no trade off at all. And basically boost to the class or give way less compared to what they gainImagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.Imagine... JUST imagine.... thats arldy happened with a mesmer MILLION times... chrono overperforming! NERF CORE traits,weapons,utiltiies. MIRAGE EVADE TOO MUCH !1111 NERF CORE traits,weapons.utilities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"yusayu.3629" said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

They're not, but all such discussions need to keep in mind that there's an inherent tradeoff in that you're giving up a third core traitline, and the mesmer core traitlines are pretty good on the whole.

Duel - all trash except deceptive evasion.Illusions - all trash except torch cdr.Dom - CS, mental anguish and imagined burden are good, rest is meh.Inspi - meme traitline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"yusayu.3629" said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

They're not, but all such discussions need to keep in mind that there's an inherent tradeoff in that you're giving up a third core traitline, and the mesmer core traitlines are pretty good on the whole.

Duel - all trash except deceptive evasion.Illusions - all trash except torch cdr.Dom - CS, mental anguish and imagined burden are good, rest is meh.Inspi - meme traitline.Tldr: they are were better long ago before nerfs and nowdays you go for a specific trait rather than entire traitline :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would accept all of the new nerfs/changes if they gave glamour trait back. Mesmer has no unique ability now. Thieves with portal (and stealth? Which requires mesmer to use 2 skills), renegade with alacrity. What next? Warrior with clones?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:

@"yusayu.3629" said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

Yeah, and I heavily disagree with ANets position. It is a waste of resources to try and balance a boring part of the game.

Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

What core players? Why choose core when you play the actual class in the way it is designed nowadays? Elite classes are more interesting (in general), and shouldn't it be a priority for ANet to keep the player interested by giving them interesting classes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.That's me and literally every Mesmer nerf for the entire life of the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@yusayu.3629 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

Yeah, and I heavily disagree with ANets position. It is a waste of resources to try and balance a boring part of the game.

Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

What core players? Why choose core when you play the actual class in the way it is designed nowadays? Elite classes are more interesting (in general), and shouldn't it be a priority for ANet to keep the player interested by giving them interesting classes?

Core being boring? Because it's called "elite" specialization doesn't mean it's better or more interesting. The idea is to make changes that are significant enough to call the profession by a different name.

Core is far from being boring. It gives so much creativity that doesn't leave you bound to one very specific thing.

Maybe you're the type of "MMO" player that only cares for what works best with little effort and no work of your own skill, but there is some people out there that prefer creating something that can work in theory no matter their how hard it is to do because in Guild Wars 2 stats and skills are not the only thing that works in practice, the player actions and decision also do and that's what make the game so unique compared all the others.

If one thing becomes blatantly better because of literal bad handling the game already existing options, not only should it get nerfed because it's OP but also because it's relevance overshadows anything that could be interesting AND lowers the player skill ceiling as a whole.

Mirage is one of the most easy profession to sit back and let the work be done for you and it should so be the next to get nerfed in some aspects.

You can tell me that I sound like a hater, but I love nerfs, even my favorite profession is getting nerfed (Revenant) and I hope that the changes are good enough to keep people from playing cheap, simple minded tricks so that my fights can still be interesting after the years in spend playing this game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In HoT, pretty much every e-spec was an addition OVER the core, and I think that is still rippling far and wide today. On one hand, the game needed some fast freshening up - so making e-specs a BETTER version of core was one way to do it... albeit you could say that if Anet managed to release an xpac sooner, and keep a strict cadence, all of this could possibly be averted.

Even after Anet changed their mindset, some PoF e-specs are still pretty much additions to the core - Holo and SB kinda come to mind, although to a lesser degree compared to HoT times for sure.

I don't think some of the design decisions can really be retconned easily... OP e-specs, Mesmer clone/phantasm dichotomy, Necromancer being firmly planted into condi by design, Engineer's kits being kinda-but-kinda-not a profession mechanic, Thieves pretty much not having support options by design... and so on. I have to say, I can't say where most of the changes from today's patch are meant to steer the game, despite the designers prefacing them with their reasoning. I just hope I'll understand the concept while playing, I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

Yeah, and I heavily disagree with ANets position. It is a waste of resources to try and balance a boring part of the game.

Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

What core players? Why choose core when you play the actual class in the way it is designed nowadays? Elite classes are more interesting (in general), and shouldn't it be a priority for ANet to keep the player interested by giving them interesting classes?

Core being boring? Because it's called "elite" specialization doesn't mean it's better or more interesting. The idea is to make changes that are significant enough to call the profession by a different name.

Core is far from being boring. It gives so much creativity that doesn't leave you bound to one very specific thing.Core has by definition fewer mechanics than any elite specialization. All Elite specs add mechanics on top of core. Imo more (interesting) mechanics = more fun. The core talent trees generally give passive bonuses. I prefer an active mechanic (i.e. CS, Ambush attacks, Holoforge) over just another tree of passives.

Maybe you're the type of "MMO" player that only cares for what works best with little effort and no work of your own skill, but there is some people out there that prefer creating something that can work in theory no matter their how hard it is to do because in Guild Wars 2 stats and skills are not the only thing that works in practice, the player actions and decision also do and that's what make the game so unique compared all the others.

Elite specs generally require more skill, because they have more mechanics involved. Just compare something like playing DPS Mesmer and DPS Chrono. Holy shit, not just is Chrono so much more fun to play (CS is a very fun ability in general), but you also have more stuff to play with, AND it feels completely different from any other class. The fact that you're locked into one of your traitlines is kinda balanced by the fact that you have more utility skills to choose from.

I personally prefer a class with a more stale build if it is much more interesting and difficult to play. I can understand, tho, that some people prefer to have more choices when building their class even if it is much easier and straightforward to play.

If one thing becomes blatantly better because of literal bad handling the game already existing options, not only should it get nerfed because it's OP but also because it's relevance overshadows anything that could be interesting AND lowers the player skill ceiling as a whole.This thread was about Chrono, right? Chrono wasn't better than most other classes, in fact it is nowadays commonly replaced by Firebrigade in raids and fractals. It didn't need a nerf, it was in a good spot. Not to mention that they nerf the class in the worst possible way. I don't care about taking away damage from skills or even boons, but taking away an entire skill is much more annoying for the players to deal with and makes the class feel way less fun. They could've halved Distortion's duration, given it a 1-clone limit and that'd would've been enough of a nerf (but again, why nerf Chrono?!). Imo skill ceiling for Chronos was lowered because of this patch.

Not to mention the fact that Chrono lost some of its fractal skips because of the 1-clone requirement for CS, which just further reduces skill ceiling and interesting shit you could do with the class. This falls into the same direction as the portal nerf. Why nerf interesting & unique mechanics; just tone down the damage instead.

Mirage is one of the most easy profession to sit back and let the work be done for you and it should so be the next to get nerfed in some aspects.

Why? Mirage is nowhere near a top class in PvP and is one of the more interesting classes for raids, because it's optimal (though not really above average) for some encounters, while being slightly below average for others. That means you can't just play everything with Mirage, which is fine imo.

You can tell me that I sound like a hater, but I love nerfs, even my favorite profession is getting nerfed (Revenant) and I hope that the changes are good enough to keep people from playing cheap, simple minded tricks so that my fights can still be interesting after the years in spend playing this game.

Did Rev lose an entire skill? It's not about who gets the nerfs in general (though, again, why nerf Chrono?!), it's about how the nerfs were done. There's a massive difference in how it feels to play the class if you lose one of your more important skills, AND especially one of the skills that made the class unique.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:"Rev can now only swap legends while above 75% energy" . Now please do tell me how much do you love that nerf, because its pretty similar to how chronos got nerfed.

Has to be an elite specialization for starters. So no, not even similar it's in fact pretty backward to what Chronomancer got, you encourage Revenants to disengage rather than setup for attacks. Telling me that I should not be doing anything if I want to play my profession.

You're acting like Phantasm to Clone wasn't a buff. Which it was, they are cutting corners of the cheese now. Just accept it. Clones are not hard to generate and Phantasms still spawn Clones when killed by players. You're not gonna be missing on any to use them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:"Rev can now only swap legends while above 75% energy" . Now please do tell me how much do you love that nerf, because its pretty similar to how chronos got nerfed.

Has to be an elite specialization for starters. So no, not even similar it's in fact pretty backward to what Chronomancer got, you encourage Revenants to disengage rather than setup for attacks. Telling me that I should not be doing anything if I want to play my profession.

You're acting like Phantasm to Clone wasn't a buff. Which it was, they are cutting corners of the cheese now. Just accept it. Clones are not hard to generate and Phantasms still spawn Clones when killed by players. You're not gonna be missing on any to use them.

I took your liberty to use F skills under certain conditions the same way ANerf did with chronos.You want to setup for burst you have to wait until you have 75% energy back, chronos have to wait till clones are out to setup the burst instead of gs F3 to f1.So how are they different, but thanks anyway I know the answer now.

Regarding phantasms, it was a nerf:1 - instead of straight shattering phantasms you have to wait till they convert which takes a ridiculously huge amount of time.2 - all phantasms were nerfed except gs and utility ones(which no one bothers to use) , staff dealt huge damage before with an 1hit attack, now it channels and deals way less damage, torch became a huge telegraph skill which takes forever to hit, sword is pathetically bad, before it just poke and was one of the hardest hitting phantasms, now if you walk one step it will miss the attacks (you don't need to dodge just walk it doesn't even hit npcs), focus had synergy with focus 4 it could chunk a good amount of hp, now it takes forever and the damage is split among targets.3 - phantasms rework was aimed at pve, not pvp, it became much clunker (read point 1) and did nothing but visual garbage.As for the last point already answered above, F3 to f1 burst is dead, the combo all power shatter relies on is dead, thus power shatter is dead. And it deals less damage with the new shatters, 1clone split deals less damage than the IP mind shatter.Distortion with 0 clones which was vastly used to avoid burst is dead too.And the f5 and F4 combined makes 0 sense. You already get your hp back with f5, no reason to want to avoid damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:"Rev can now only swap legends while above 75% energy" . Now please do tell me how much do you love that nerf, because its pretty similar to how chronos got nerfed.

Has to be an elite specialization for starters. So no, not even similar it's in fact pretty backward to what Chronomancer got, you encourage Revenants to disengage rather than setup for attacks. Telling me that I should not be doing anything if I want to play my profession.

You're acting like Phantasm to Clone wasn't a buff. Which it was, they are cutting corners of the cheese now. Just accept it. Clones are not hard to generate and Phantasms still spawn Clones when killed by players. You're not gonna be missing on any to use them.

I took your liberty to use F skills under certain conditions the same way ANerf did with chronos.You want to setup for burst you have to wait until you have 75% energy back, chronos have to wait till clones are out to setup the burst instead of gs F3 to f1.So how are they different, but thanks anyway I know the answer now.

Regarding phantasms, it was a nerf:1 - instead of straight shattering phantasms you have to wait till they convert which takes a ridiculously huge amount of time.2 - all phantasms were nerfed except gs and utility ones(which no one bothers to use) , staff dealt huge damage before with an 1hit attack, now it channels and deals way less damage, torch became a huge telegraph skill which takes forever to hit, sword is pathetically bad, before it just poke and was one of the hardest hitting phantasms, now if you walk one step it will miss the attacks (you don't need to dodge just walk it doesn't even hit npcs), focus had synergy with focus 4 it could chunk a good amount of hp, now it takes forever and the damage is split among targets.3 - phantasms rework was aimed at pve, not pvp, it became much clunker (read point 1) and did nothing but visual garbage.As for the last point already answered above, F3 to f1 burst is dead, the combo all power shatter relies on is dead, thus power shatter is dead. And it deals less damage with the new shatters, 1clone split deals less damage than the IP mind shatter.Distortion with 0 clones which was vastly used to avoid burst is dead too.And the f5 and F4 combined makes 0 sense. You already get your hp back with f5, no reason to want to avoid damage.

If Chronomancer didn't have the liberty in the first place which was unbalanced, you wouldn't be here complaining about it.

Rev got already tweaked many times with the loss Incensed Response being a night and day difference PvP vs WvW including the minor changes of Impossible Odds and other modifiers such as Roiling Mists. If you want to nerf Rev properly , reduce the endurance generation from Riposting Shadows to 20~15, not erase it's entire existence because in contrast you cannot accept the trade off that was needed by design. Also if Rev gets nerfed that way, Spellbreaker Magebane Tether will have to get nerfed as well to 1 might per second because that's how these 2 get to duel all the time.

Also I see Phantasm spam all over the place as Phantasmal Disenchanter being the worst offender, so I beg to differ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...