Creation of the Steam Creatures

[leunamsil.6742]

So, after a few years of playing gw2 i finaly created my 1º asura and during one of the of the story lines (Split Second) we find out that our doppleganger from another reality created the steam creatures to conquer Tyria. I always thought that the creation of these machines was a mistery. Does this mean scarlet worked with the asura commander doppleganger in order to be able to control the steam creatures?

[Ayrilana.1396]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steam_creature#Modern_developments

[Kossage.9072]

The original idea may have been that the steam creatures originated from an alternate Tyria until the narrative team decided to turn them into Scarlet's creations instead in Season 1. Scarlet was a prodigy who managed to program new beings that took their own path in life once she had discarded them. Season 2 mentions that Scarlet had created two batches of steam creatures: one batch was sent to Lornar's Pass, and the other to Brisban Wildlands. We only encounter the Lornar creatures in open world, and the only instances we have of steam creatures in Brisban is via an asura gate event at Dusktruck Moors (where it's suggested these creatures arrive from Lornar's Pass) and the Infinity Ball story which reveals those specific creatures aren't from the Brisban batch either as I'll explain below...which means that the Brisban batch is still out there and could potentially be encountered in the future, maybe in the Sage Lands/Wilds that exist beyond the broken bandit bridge portal in northern Brisban Wildlands. As said in "Prosperity's Mystery" in Season 2:

Ceara: Today I am sixteen cycles old, and to celebrate, I've been testing my first steam portal with steam minotaurs. The last batch actually made it in one piece.
Ceara: I noted the tiniest hint of intelligence in a steam brain today as it studied one of the portals. Fascinating.
Ceara: One in three steam creatures is being destroyed by my portals. I must find a solution.
Ceara: I have not yet had the courage to travel through one of my portals myself. I need to strengthen the form resonator first.
Ceara: I may have created a new sentient being. My steam brains are mimicking my building techniques, designing their own version of the steam portal. [...]
Scarlet Briar: The steam brains have shown ingenuity. When threatened, they build steam minotaurs from whatever materials they can find.
Scarlet Briar: I've used a portal to send most of my steam creature prototypes into Lornar's Pass and Brisban Wildlands. I no longer need them.

When asked about the Infinity Ball during GW2 China Launch by a player who later posted the answers on Reddit, narrative designers Ree Soesbee and Jeff Grubb had this to say (paraphrased): "As said before, The Mists hold 'memory' of both past and future. These 'memories' include possibilities, or 'potential energy' of what CAN happen in the future. An example of this would be the Infinity Ball in the Asura Personal Story. The alternate version of the player character that invades isn't actually from an alternate reality/world, but from a potential future that exists within The Mists."

What this means, then, is that the steam creatures specifically seen in the Infinity Ball story aren't Scarlet's Tyrian steam creature creations from Lornar's Pass per se but basically something akin to fractal anomalies manifesting on Tyria alongside the asura player's evil fractal doppelganger called the Grand High Sovereign. So the Sovereign claiming to have created the steam creatures which were used to conquer the "alternate" Tyria was a lie although this fractal anomaly Sovereign may have genuinely believed their words due to the Mists possibly implanting them with "false" memories of this nonexistent (as far as we know) yet seemingly potential future of an alternate Tyria. Given the storyline about Arkk in the three-fractal story arc, it's unknown if fractal anomalies can exist indefinitely in Tyria once they emerge from the Mists (with or without aid from the Infinity Ball) or if they cease to exist after some time has passed; this would be a fascinating story to explore if a new hero or villain we meet is revealed to be such a fractal anomaly whose motivation is to continue existing before they'll be forced to fade away.

According to the aforementioned interview, current lore states (until the new writers state otherwise as technically this hasn't been mentioned in game yet, and all lore not in game, and sometimes even in game due to unreliable narrator NPCs unless our characters witness it first-hand, is subject to change if the narrative requires it):

Tyria exists as multiple worlds, but not like a traditional 'infinite multiple-worlds' setting where there's divergance based on probability (eg. One universe where Snaff is dead and another universe where he isn't).
There is a set number of "versions" of Tyria, and that's the servers: Tarnished Coast, Blackgate, Gate of Madness, etc. Each server is another version of Tyria (or "world") that exists within the Mists.
Player characters are unique to every world. There are no "alternate versions" of player characters that exist parallel in other worlds.
Important NPC's however, (Destiny's Edge, Kiel, Magnus, Scarlet, etc.) are constants across all versions of Tyria for a reason not yet clear.
World Vs. World is where all of these different versions of Tyria fight each other for resources in their own respective battles with the Elder Dragons, (The Borderlands and such are the literal borderlands between different versions of Tyria).

The Mists as a whole is admittedly confusing in the way it copies stuff (see e.g. revenant legends which are echoes created from powerful figures from the past and potentially from the future who left an imprint on the Mists, so the Glint or Jalis we channel isn't the "real" version but just their echo from a specific point in time who has limited knowledge but who can react to stimuli), creates pocket echoes of locations which may be from a specific point in time from history or mix multiple historical moments together (fractals, e.g. the Aquatic Ruins fractal is said to combine two historical moments, thus we have the two alternate paths in it), creates templates from existing beings to give birth to unique beings based on such (Razah, skyscales) or even creates entirely new beings from malignant energies within itself that may emerge in abstract and grotesque forms or appear quite humanoid (demons in both cases). If we take note of the old GW1 lore about the Rift and the Hall of Heroes (this latter one even exists in GW2 dat but was cut from PoF late in development; maybe we'll see it implemented into game one day if the story takes another Mists-inspired turn), the very centre of the Mists supposedly grants one access to all space and time, allowing time travel and a path to the alternate realms in the entire "limited" multiverse. As said in Guild Wars Prophecies manual:

In the middle of The Mists is a spot where time moves neither forward nor back. It is a tear in the fabric of the cosmos, the point of perfect balance between all forces of the universe. This place is known as the Rift, and there is nothing to which it does not connect, nothing that cannot be reached from inside it. Those who have the know-how to travel across the universe through the Mists must pass through the Rift on their way to all other places. It is the center of all things.
In the center of the Rift, deep inside the Mists, stands the imposing walled fortress known across the multiverse as the Hall of Heroes. This structure is the pinnacle of the afterlife. When a hero dies, his spirit goes to one of two places: either it is buried with the deceased body, forever trapped inside the rotting flesh and rancid bones of the corpse, or it is released into the Rift. This latter honor goes to only those few whose deeds in life were legendary enough to be known across multiple worlds, and fewer still earn a place among the souls ensconced inside the Hall itself.

Admittedly the bit about where the spirits go has since been expanded on as most souls don't end up trapped in corpses but enter the Mists even if most of them never enter the Hall of Heroes itself; however, otherwise the lore should still apply until devs state otherwise. I hope this helps. :)

[leunamsil.6742]

@"Kossage.9072" said:

What this means, then, is that the steam creatures specifically seen in the Infinity Ball story aren't Scarlet's Tyrian steam creature creations from Lornar's Pass per se but basically something akin to fractal anomalies manifesting on Tyria alongside the asura player's evil fractal doppelganger called the Grand High Sovereign. So the Sovereign claiming to have created the steam creatures which were used to conquer the "alternate" Tyria was a lie although this fractal anomaly Sovereign may have genuinely believed their words due to the Mists implanting them with false memories of this nonexistent yet seemingly potential future of an alternate Tyria.

So if i understood correctly the steam creatures from grand high sovereign are the same end result as scarlet's but with a different origin story? like they are bound to be created, no matter the universe? Or since the creatures already exist in our timeline, the ghs just thinks he created them in the future?

Sorry if i'm having trouble understanding, but fractals were always something i had trouble wraping my head around =/

[Kossage.9072]

Yes, the Infinity Ball steam creatures would have a different origin story as in that "reality" the Sovereign invented them (or so he/she claims) and fought in the Battle of Divinity's Reach. It's not really made clear in game, but my understanding based on that interview is that the unique powers of the Infinity Ball manifested what appear to be fractal anomalies (think of our Dessa, who is actually the fractal copy of the real unseen Dessa, in Mistlock Sanctuary except appearing on Tyria rather than trapped in a specific part of the Mists) of the player asura and Scarlet's steam creatures on Tyria.

And yes, the steam creatures are bound to be created in the canonical alternate Tyrias in the multiverse. As the interview lore I quoted earlier states, all the limited alternate Tyrias must follow the same timeline so Snaff must've died in each one just like Scarlet must have created steam creatures in each one. So Grand High Sovereign never could've created the steam creatures in these canonical multiverse worlds despite claiming to do so, but the Infinity Ball nevertheless manifested a paradoxical possibility where the asura player's evil fractal self altered the "future" by creating the steam creatures likely because the Infinity Ball manipulated the rules of the Mists to allow for this possibility in its "pocket reality" or whatever to exist as it was trying to manifest it with limited success.

If we look at the canonical timeline, Scarlet/Ceara claims to have been circa sixteen cycles old when she created some of her first steam creatures. As Ceara was a Secondborn and the Secondborn's canonical year of awakening is 1304 AE, the absolute latest canonical date for steam creature creation on our Tyria (and all the multiverse alt Tyrias due to the rule of following the same timeline as mentioned before) is 1320 AE while the personal story begins in 1325 AE. So in the would-be fractal reality (with false or true memories depending on how the Sovereign and the evil Shodd version's memories were formed) that the Infinity Ball was attempting to create, the evil asura player would've created the steam creatures over five years before his or her involvement in the canonical personal story, and thus predating Scarlet's discoveries, unless the Infinity Ball's version of the reality simply neglected to include Scarlet's existence in it, or the Sovereign lied and had actually stolen Scarlet's designs and retrofitted them for his or her use to conquer the world (or so he believed).

And don't worry; fractals, reventant legend echoes, Mist templates like Razah and skyscales, multiverse realms, time travel, prophecies that must become true, and demons forming into being are indeed confusing, but that's what the Infinity Ball, the Mists and its weird creations are in general. I'm more surprised that the asura player was able to build such a complex device to seemingly do the impossible, but then again Omadd was able to build his machine which in turn was improved on by Taimi to make dealing with Elder Dragons more trivial for a time. :)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@leunamsil.6742 said:

@"Kossage.9072" said:

What this means, then, is that the steam creatures specifically seen in the Infinity Ball story aren't Scarlet's Tyrian steam creature creations from Lornar's Pass per se but basically something akin to fractal anomalies manifesting on Tyria alongside the asura player's evil fractal doppelganger called the Grand High Sovereign. So the Sovereign claiming to have created the steam creatures which were used to conquer the "alternate" Tyria was a lie although this fractal anomaly Sovereign may have genuinely believed their words due to the Mists implanting them with false memories of this nonexistent yet seemingly potential future of an alternate Tyria.

So if i understood correctly the steam creatures from grand high sovereign are the same end result as scarlet's but with a different origin story? like they are bound to be created, no matter the universe? Or since the creatures already exist in our timeline, the ghs just thinks he created them in the future?

Sorry if i'm having trouble understanding, but fractals were always something i had trouble wraping my head around =/

It's unsurprising it's confusing, given that the whole Scarlet involvement bit is a retcon created in Season 2 that results in conflicting statements (arguably Season 1 where she utilized some Steam creatures but she could have overtaken them rather than made them, which was her modus operandi).

Originally they were all meant to originate from a fractal of another reality, but they retconned it so that those in Lornar's Pass were made by Scarlet instead (well, the dialogue line says Lornar's Pass and Brisban, but the only time we see the steam creatures in Brisban is during the PS where they explicitly come through the Infinity Ball portals, so yeah, retcon where ArenaNet writers didn't pay the bit amount of attention to established lore).

[leunamsil.6742]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's unsurprising it's confusing, given that the whole Scarlet involvement bit is a retcon created in Season 2 that results in conflicting statements (arguably Season 1 where she utilized some Steam creatures but she could have overtaken them rather than made them, which was her modus operandi).

Originally they were all meant to originate from a fractal of another reality, but they retconned it so that those in Lornar's Pass were made by Scarlet instead (well, the dialogue line says Lornar's Pass and Brisban, but the only time we see the steam creatures in Brisban is during the PS where they explicitly come through the Infinity Ball portals, so yeah, retcon where ArenaNet writers didn't pay the bit amount of attention to established lore).

Ok, somehow it being a retcon makes it way easier to understand xb although i always get a bit sad when writers forget about in game lore =/

Tyvm to both Kossage and Konig for the help in understanding a minor story issue