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Its time to fix Outnumbered


Zetsuei.8942

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:Yes, they should change the outnumbered buff.

No, they shouldn't add damage modifiers or anything like that.

They should devalue the map for server score when it appears. Make it a grade. High vs. low, 100% more players, 0% map value. 50% = 50% etc.

That will likely change player behaviour with transfers, reward players fighting under even conditions and solve population balance over time.

It also enables them to remove the queue system and use overflows. It works under the server system and will work under the alliance system.

It does all of that without unecessarily punishing off-time players or smaller scaled players. I've pretty much said this since outnumbered came out.

This feels like a good idea, maybe not exactly as you describe but at least individual debuffs for fighting with greater numbers, like less xp and loots, for example . . .

I think the reason anet didn't go this way is it would create a lot of toxicity, we were here first, get off this map, if you not on tag move maps, etc. . . .

I also feel like in the past anet wanted to encourage ppl to group up, which is why they resisted invisible tags. But now that they've reversed course on that issue perhaps they would consider some debuff for having a significant numbers advantage as well, idk . . .

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Lower the cap on the number of players allowed in each map during off hours.

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:
They should devalue the map
for server score when it appears. Make it a grade. High vs. low, 100% more players, 0% map value. 50% = 50% etc.

these are interesting ideas.

There are no "off hours" in a global game. For whatever reason, we have two server clusters - EU and NA. Clearly that doesn't represent the audience the game has acquired. Unless ANet is going to open specific data centers for the other major time-zones, each of which have substantial populations relative to WvW, there are going to be plenty of people whose prime playing time is NA's or EU's "off hours".

There are businesses that trade on exclusivity, by limiting access to their products and services to make them seem more attractive than their intrinsic value suports, but massively multiple online games, particularly ones that emphasize collaboration, co-operation and accessibility, aren't among them. Putting limitations in place that prevent customers who've purchased the game from playing any part of it based on the time of day they choose to play - which could and, correctly, would be associated with the part of the world in which they live, would be a PR disaster.

What they might have done to ameliorate this predictable problem from the start would have been to come up with a scoring system that took time-zones into account. Not a penalty but a split, so that each match scores in phases, for example. Or separate matches during a week - or a couple of weeks - with staggered reset times and an aggregate score across all matches to decide who won the set. There are plenty of ways it could have been arranged that would have resulted in a more balanced outcome than the very basic system we've been using.

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@Tiny Doom.4380 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Lower the cap on the number of players allowed in each map during off hours.

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:
They should devalue the map
for server score when it appears. Make it a grade. High vs. low, 100% more players, 0% map value. 50% = 50% etc.

these are interesting ideas.

There are no "off hours" in a global game. For whatever reason, we have two server clusters - EU and NA. Clearly that doesn't represent the audience the game has acquired. Unless ANet is going to open specific data centers for the other major time-zones, each of which have substantial populations relative to WvW, there are going to be plenty of people whose prime playing time is NA's or EU's "off hours".

"plenty", but fewer. Far fewer. I know bc I am one of those ppl who plays off peak and it does make me uncomfortable knowing my play hours are being valued much more highly than the same number of hours being put in by someone else playing during primetime . . .

Ofc the same could be said for roaming hours being much more valuable than zerging hours, but that is more directly under individual player control so it's not as much of an issue . . .

Anet probably should do something to balance scoring based on play hours rather than weighting all hours equally, but I'm not sure how relevant that is to the topic of the thread, which is what should be done when one server greatly outnumbers another on a particular map during a particular tick . . .

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https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outnumbered

Outnumbered is an effect

Just to start with the definition, there is no "Outnumbered Buff", it's an effect. And it's primary purpose is:

  • Warn of presence of large enemy forces on the map.
  • Give you some slight rewards if you still brave it.

Outnumbered Effect has never been about equalizing forces on the battlefield.


But if you wanted to add some "handicap" system to the game, I could understand that. And it would make sense to either implement that onto the existing "Outnumbered Effect" or something else similar that triggered on it for example.

First of all is the question, should the game mode have a handicap system ?

If yes: The game mode will become a whole lot more casual:

  • This would strongly affect 1vs1 and 5vs5 fights, on maps with "Handicap" enabled.
  • Would completely change/ruin most organized comp/groups as they are, since variable stats/buffs etc.
  • Outnumbered a player might win fights, and then lose another right after on another map and not understanding why.
  • I know some roamers that can already beat large numbers of enemy players, if you give some of those handicap bonuses as well, they could likely survive running through zergs.

If no: The game retains some illusion of being competitive:

  • As is, but fights in equal numbers can be competitive, people can still GvG, or zerg bust etc

If still yes, then you're also going to have to accept that combat will become a joke in the game mode. It just won't be balanced when 80 players can run around in a group somewhere, and you're trying to solo cap a camp on the other side of the map, and meet another player that literally got +100% everything to you and just auto-kills you.

Or organized groups that can use the "Handicap buff" to become virtually immortal and just slowly kill large groups. Super roamers with "handicap" that becomes darn near unkillable etc.

The game really need a way to create a localized "outnumbered effect" first, before it could even begin to apply "handicap" systems to it. That, and it would completely change the game-mode.

And this is even without really talking about how big a "handicap" there should be.


If you want to change the "Outnumbered Effect" to help combat against a larger enemy, the best way to do so is to use it on things that doesn't affect actual 5vs5 fights/stats, and rather help with things that you can't do because outnumbered in regards to objectives.

Examples:

  • Double supply max
  • Increase speed/effect of repair/build
  • Increase Siege effects (damage, longer duration effects, faster cooldowns)
  • Arguably: Double target limit on skills (AoE goes from target limit 5 to 10 etc), to allow groups a chance to actually fight against larger groups.

tldr: Honestly, nope. A "Handicap" system will create more problems than gains. WvW isn't meant to be balanced anyways.

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@Zetsuei.8942 said:Lets look at the buff: It gives 50% Participation, 20% MF, 25% WXP, no armor damage on death and no war score for enemy. Overall this buff makes no sense. Some are those decent but the rest serve no purpose. What is MF and WXP gonna do when you can't fight back or take anything?

Why does every post about this effect miss the most important benefit it renders?

While this effect is active, the player will gain 5 extra pips towards their Skirmish reward track progress per tick.

They could remove everything else, but so long as they keep the ^^^, it would still be worth it.

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Another idea that was mentioned years ago would be to have the "Outnumbered" effect override "Righteous Indignation". Basically if you are outnumbered you can damage NPCs with RI. That would require the larger server to spread out to give better protection to their territory.

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@SlateSloan.3654 said:generally i think its not a bad idea if there was some kind of outnumbered = survival instinct buffs and for the situation you describe it would indeed be of help.

but i believe that experienced smallscale guilds will just use this outnumbered buff and walk over any other squad then, making fights alot unequal.

When you've got the outnumbered buff, fights are already alot unequal.

Two unequals equals an equal

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