About mirage mesmer and condi thieves

[King xiuras.3615]

GENUINE TRASH DESIGN.

Mesmers:

1. They can spam up to 8 clones. Reduce it to 3.
2. The duration of the dazes are too long. Shorten it.
3. The duration of immobilization: shorten it.
4. Evading skills: reduce the duration of these skills.

Thieves:

1. They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both.
2. 16k dmg backstab. Reduce the dmg.
3. Condi spam. Reduce the spam.

These two builds are genuine trash design. The idea for these designs are good, but the execution of this is totally for the wrong reasons which can ruin the pvp scene. Especially when you constantly face two mirages/ two condi evade thieves.

Reduce the amount of classes to 1 in ranked. The fact that there are two is ridiculous. Make it single-pick.

[Alatar.7364]

The hell?D/D Condi is miraculously back after a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

[sinsrock.1702]

lol 16k backstabs, its not hard to not get hit by backstab, and its the only thing d/p and d/d have as a trait to do burst dmg, if they are hitting you for 16k backstabs its the ONLY thing they can do with there build its a all or nothing build, similar to the sic em sniper zerk ranger as well as the power shatter mesmer, or even the yolo engy or what about the berserker recently ? thief had been completely gutted and gotten NO attention until this recent patch where the design of thief is being looked at. a normal backstab will only hit for 8k without the power sig unless your squishy yourself.

[sinsrock.1702]

@Alatar.7364 said:The hell?D/D Condi is miraculously back after a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

ive seen a couple but it really did take some skill before i think its a lot stronger now which is totally cool at least p/d dead eye is stronger for condis im not a condi fan i think its stupid overall to just put condis on and run BUT its whats in Gw, so gotta deal with it xD mirrage can still spam tf outa condis but i think most classes can, even hybrid rev is hard to deal with same with burn guard, what about burn ele? i mean in reality condi itself is whats hard to deal with not just thief.

[Tayga.3192]

Okay, I'll bite the bait.

@King xiuras.3615 said:Mesmers:

1. They can spam up to 8 clones. Reduce it to 3.It's already 3.
2. The duration of the dazes are too long. Shorten it.They already reworked domination trait and buffed some cc as compensation. You can dodge while dazed, it's the weakest cc.
3. The duration of immobilization: shorten it.Just use a mobility skill as warrior, it removes immob since all of warriors run discipline. Only reapers and maybe non-blood scourges can say it has too long duration, other classes have a way to deal with it.
4. Evading skills: reduce the duration of these skills.Mirage has a total of... two dodges as evade since nobody runs axe and illusionary ambush. I wish mirage had something like Might Makes Right. Warriors have equal or more evade on top of heavy armor.

Thieves:

1. They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both.Strength warriors do 6k unblockable dodges.
2. 16k dmg backstab. Reduce the dmg.Backstab? Really?
3. Condi spam. Reduce the spam.Take cleanse other than shake it off.

[Chiral.8915]

@King xiuras.3615 said:Angry warrior noises.

My response: Git gud

[Kaozkrayken.9570]

The only valid point I see here is mirage immob being too long. Other than that, sounds like you just need to learn how to play against mirage.

As for condi thief, lol.

[otto.5684]

@King xiuras.3615 said:GENUINE TRASH DESIGN.

Mesmers:

1. They can spam up to 8 clones. Reduce it to 3.
2. The duration of the dazes are too long. Shorten it.
3. The duration of immobilization: shorten it.
4. Evading skills: reduce the duration of these skills.

Thieves:

1. They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both.
2. 16k dmg backstab. Reduce the dmg.
3. Condi spam. Reduce the spam.

These two builds are genuine trash design. The idea for these designs are good, but the execution of this is totally for the wrong reasons which can ruin the pvp scene. Especially when you constantly face two mirages/ two condi evade thieves.

Reduce the amount of classes to 1 in ranked. The fact that there are two is ridiculous. Make it single-pick.

Can you tell me the mesmer build that uses 8 clones? I would love to play that.. if it exists.

I also would like to play the thief build with 16K backstab. Seems very cool, again... if it exists.

You know what is genuine trash? I guess you do now ;)

[Koen.1327]

@otto.5684 said:

@King xiuras.3615 said:GENUINE TRASH DESIGN.

Mesmers:

1. They can spam up to 8 clones. Reduce it to 3.
2. The duration of the dazes are too long. Shorten it.
3. The duration of immobilization: shorten it.
4. Evading skills: reduce the duration of these skills.

Thieves:

1. They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both.
2. 16k dmg backstab. Reduce the dmg.
3. Condi spam. Reduce the spam.

These two builds are genuine trash design. The idea for these designs are good, but the execution of this is totally for the wrong reasons which can ruin the pvp scene. Especially when you constantly face two mirages/ two condi evade thieves.

Reduce the amount of classes to 1 in ranked. The fact that there are two is ridiculous. Make it single-pick.

Can you tell me the mesmer build that uses 8 clones? I would love to play that.. if it exists.

I also would like to play the thief build with 16K backstab. Seems very cool, again... if it exists.

You know what is genuine trash? I guess you do now ;)

mirage staff+ scepter/torch-start 3 clones on staff from distance-cast phantasm (try at max range)-right before phantasm turn clones, shatter (= 3 towards your target)-then you need to block something with scepter 2, and before that you shatter (=2 more towards your target, or 3 if you dodged before blocking)-2 spawn on your target, with 5-6 clones going for shatter-cast torch 5 while dodging, leaves your with a clutter of 8-9 clones and 1 phantasm

[James.1065]

@Koen.1327 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@King xiuras.3615 said:GENUINE TRASH DESIGN.

Mesmers:

1. They can spam up to 8 clones. Reduce it to 3.
2. The duration of the dazes are too long. Shorten it.
3. The duration of immobilization: shorten it.
4. Evading skills: reduce the duration of these skills.

Thieves:

1. They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both.
2. 16k dmg backstab. Reduce the dmg.
3. Condi spam. Reduce the spam.

These two builds are genuine trash design. The idea for these designs are good, but the execution of this is totally for the wrong reasons which can ruin the pvp scene. Especially when you constantly face two mirages/ two condi evade thieves.

Reduce the amount of classes to 1 in ranked. The fact that there are two is ridiculous. Make it single-pick.

Can you tell me the mesmer build that uses 8 clones? I would love to play that.. if it exists.

I also would like to play the thief build with 16K backstab. Seems very cool, again... if it exists.

You know what is genuine trash? I guess you do now ;)

mirage staff+ scepter/torch-start 3 clones on staff from distance-cast phantasm (try at max range)-right before phantasm turn clones, shatter (= 3 towards your target)-then you need to block something with scepter 2, and before that you shatter (=2 more towards your target, or 3 if you dodged before blocking)-2 spawn on your target, with 5-6 clones going for shatter-cast torch 5 while dodging, leaves your with a clutter of 8-9 clones and 1 phantasm

Lol I guess koen should take a look in the mirror and start re-evaluating his definition of genuine trash!

[viquing.8254]

@King xiuras.3615 said:GENUINE TRASH DESIGN.

Mesmers:

1. They can spam up to 8 clones. Reduce it to 3.Warrior can spam 4k + evade skills, reduce it to 200.
2. The duration of the dazes are too long. Shorten it.Yeah give me a 3 sec hard CC like bull charge please.
3. The duration of immobilization: shorten it.Give me the same amount of gap closer on same CD as war plz
4. Evading skills: reduce the duration of these skills.Or give me an evade on short cd skill like some can have.

Note I take war comparison but it can work on other class.thx bye.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

Why even include thief at all? When it comes to spamming evade frames and simultaneously applying conditions CI Mirage has 2x the evades and 4x the conditions.

[Tiipi.6750]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Why even include thief at all? When it comes to spamming evade frames and simultaneously applying conditions CI Mirage has 2x the evades and 4x the conditions.

2 evades and poor vigor uptime = 2x more evades ? Mmmhh

[Tayga.3192]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Why even include thief at all? When it comes to spamming evade frames and simultaneously applying conditions CI Mirage has 2x the evades and 4x the conditions.

Most condi thieves are daredevil so they have 3rd dodge and endurance filling skills/traits. d/d, s/d and shortbow on thief can spam 3 for evade. Nearly all thieves use withdraw so they have that in their pocket as well. In addition to these, shortbow is commonly used with energy sigil.On really any viable core build (be it core condition or the meta s/d), they most likely run acrobatics line so they have stronger vigor and 8 sec vigor every evade (not even counting stealing vigor) on a puny 1 second cooldown.Edit: Daggerstorm is evade too, lol.

Mirages (or mesmers in general) have to run 2x enegry sigil and they have a poor vigor uptime. Yes mirages have mirrors but you can't really time important dodges with mirrors, they are just used for extra ambushes. A mesmer in general has, wait for it, nearly the same evasion uptime as a necromancer (not counting distortion since it's not an evade). Also we shouldn't forget that mirages have a worse dodge than any other class as of 16th July patch, it covers less distance than a regular dodge.Mesmer's strength lives elsewhere.Edit 2: Mesmer can get vigor from Chaotic Interruption (randomly on interrupt, and countered by stability) or from Bountiful Disillusionment (with f2 skill) on chaos line, but they are both grandmaster traits so they compete with each other.

[Daishi.6027]

@"King xiuras.3615" said:Mesmers:

4. Evading skills: reduce the duration of these skills.

This is the dumbest thing. Ranger, Thief, Engie, War, and Ele have more on demand defensive cooldowns (evasion/block/invlun) than a mirage.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Why even include thief at all? When it comes to spamming evade frames and simultaneously applying conditions CI Mirage has 2x the evades and 4x the conditions.

Most condi thieves are daredevil so they have 3rd dodge and endurance filling skills/traits. d/d, s/d and shortbow on thief can spam 3 for evade. Nearly all thieves use withdraw so they have that in their pocket as well. In addition to these, shortbow is commonly used with energy sigil.On really any viable core build (be it core condition or the meta s/d), they most likely run acrobatics line so they have stronger vigor and 8 sec vigor every evade (not even counting stealing vigor) on a puny 1 second cooldown.Edit: Daggerstorm is evade too, lol.

When it comes to condi DD they only get vigor from bountiful theft, and if they manage to steal the boon. That's 10s minimum from a single skill, meaning if vigor gets stripped/corrupted, they have to wait for steal to recharge to get it back, and of course; there's no extra vigor if they don't steal vigor.

It's not taking into account factors like: If I were to CC a condi DD, they're CC'd. They can't continuously evade in that moment, unless they break stun/cleanse first.

Mirages (or mesmers in general) have to run 2x enegry sigil and they have a poor vigor uptime. Yes mirages have mirrors but you can't really time important dodges with mirrors, they are just used for extra ambushes. A mesmer in general has, wait for it, nearly the same evasion uptime as a necromancer (not counting distortion since it's not an evade). Also we shouldn't forget that mirages have a worse dodge than any other class as of 16th July patch, it covers less distance than a regular dodge.Mesmer's strength lives elsewhere.Edit 2: Mesmer can get vigor from Chaotic Interruption (randomly on interrupt, and countered by stability) or from Bountiful Disillusionment (with f2 skill) on chaos line, but they are both grandmaster traits so they compete with each other.@"everyman.4375" said:2 evades and poor vigor uptime = 2x more evades ? Mmmhh

This is some serious Miragesplaining™. To call their vigor uptime low and compare their evades to necro is beyond ludicrous. Makes me question the legitimacy, even.5s from False Oasis5s From critical infusion(Here we've already matched bountiful theft in duration, and this comes from two different sources rather than just one)5s With Chaotic Interruption RNG(No internal CD btw) or 8s Guaranteed with Bountiful Disillusionment12s max with Nomad's Endurance EDIT: Actually it was patched to 1.5s per shatter adding up to a total of 6 seconds. Thanks for clearing that up!

They actually have some of, if not the very highest vigor uptime in the current meta, surpassed only by Holo/Engi(Maybe? Probably not, in all honesty.)

Scepter 2 not only blocks, but has evade frames as well.I'll be modest and go along with you not counting Distortion, even though at one point in the game's history it literally counted as evades rather than invulns.

On top of all that, they get mirrors like you say; which essentially act as an extra dodge, because even if it's being used offensively; it still grants evades to you and the other 3 yous. They also, as mentioned before; can use their evades in situations where DD's couldn't. And personally I don't see the use in dodges being "more mobile" when they are being used offensively as well as defensively. That seems like a completely contrived excuse.

So yeah, even with DD's 3 endurance bars, crazy refill, and evades tied to skills, i'm no less convinced they can't not manage to evade more than CI Mirages.

[Daishi.6027]

@"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

This is some serious Miragesplaining™. To call their vigor uptime low and compare their evades to necro is beyond ludicrous. Makes me question the legitimacy, even.5s from False Oasis5s From critical infusion(Here we've already matched bountiful theft in duration, and this comes from two different sources rather than just one)5s With Chaotic Interruption RNG(No internal CD btw) or 8s Guaranteed with Bountiful Disillusionment12s max with Nomad's Endurance

They actually have some of, if not the very highest vigor uptime in the current meta, surpassed only by Holo/Engi(Maybe? Probably not, in all honesty.)

Scepter 2 not only blocks, but has evade frames as well.I'll be modest and go along with you not counting Distortion, even though at one point in the game's history it literally counted as evades rather than invulns.

On top of all that, they get mirrors like you say; which essentially act as an extra dodge, because even if it's being used offensively; it still grants evades to you and the other 3 yous. They also, as mentioned before; can use their evades in situations where DD's couldn't. And personally I don't see the use in dodges being "more mobile" when they are being used offensively as well as defensively. That seems like a completely contrived excuse.

So yeah, even with DD's 3 endurance bars, crazy refill, and evades tied to skills, i'm no less convinced they can't not manage to evade more than CI Mirages.

Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to. Try to remember that was with the increased evade duration on mirage cloak

I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

so 5s from False Oasis5s from Critical infusionand 6 from Nomads endurance. PvP is only 1.5sec per shatter.I don't think a grand total of 16 seconds across 5 cooldowns (many upwards of 20 second cooldowns), and a trait (with a 10 second cooldown) is what I'd call a lot.

The fact you are using PvE numbers, and quoting something regarding DD that has already been tested and calculated is pretty Ignorantsplainning™.

Mirrors although are evasions are stupidly easy to play around, your only control method is to walk into them, it's easy to just not waste a singe hit attack on someone walking into the obvious purple diamond thing, or to use the time to use a longer cast time, or multi hit skill. These are a dodge yes, but they aren't useful when you have to walk a certain distance away, or blow a significantly more valuable cooldown to trigger them.

Also let's not pretend the evasion on illusionary counter matters, it only exists as a bandaid so you aren't instantly vulnerable during the trigger animation. That was a band-aid fix A-net made back in 2017 after explicitly stating that they made the attack to long leaving you vulnerable, but wanted to keep the current speed.

So Mirage before the nerfs had less than DD, after the nerfs has significantly less vigor. To top it off a chunck of that evasion time is on a mechanic that is terribly designed for PvP.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Daishi.6027 said:and 6 from Nomads endurance. PvP is only 1.5sec per shatter.

This is right actually. I made an oopsie and i'll go back and fix.

Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to.

I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

so 5s from False Oasis5s from Critical infusionI don't think a grand total of 16 seconds across 5 cooldowns (many upwards of 20 second cooldowns), and a trait (with a 10 second cooldown) is what I'd call a lot.

Not counting CI is a bit of an unfair caveat, seeing as it has no internal CD. I hope if you aren't counting that, then you aren't counting on DD stealing vigor from someone either, because that's also RNG. There's also Bountiful Disillusionment as an alternative to CI entirely too, as @Tayga.3192 pointed out. Similarly speaking, if we're going to go back in time to make excuses for today; then guess what, i'm counting distort as an evade!

I know you may not think it's a lot, and to your credit; you make it seem like a lot less, but even at base; it's more than DD gets. It's also more than almost every class in PvP gets, other than Holo/Scrapper.

And of course, that'd be ignoring CI or the 8s from Bountiful Disillusionment, and like I say; with how spammable CI is, there's potential for that number to be buffed longer, and that'd still be needless. At 16 seconds you can still bounce between Critical Infusion, CI, Nomad's Endurance, and False Oasis for close to, if not 100% uptime in theory, and regardless; you'd still have more vigor uptime than the majority of viable classes in PvP.

Mirrors although are evasions are stupidly easy to play around, your only control method is to walk into them, it's easy to just not waste a singe hit attack on someone walking into the obvious purple diamond thing, or to use the time to use a longer cast time, or multi hit skill. These are a dodge yes, but they aren't useful when you have to walk a certain distance away, or blow a significantly more valuable cooldown to trigger them.

Also let's not pretend the evasion on illusionary counter matters, it only exists as a bandaid so you aren't instantly vulnerable during the trigger animation. That was a band-aid fix A-net made back in 2017 after explicitly stating that they made the attack to long leaving you vulnerable, but wanted to keep the current speed.

So Mirage before the nerfs had less than DD, after the nerfs has significantly less vigor. To top it off a chunck of that evasion time is on a mechanic that is terribly designed for PvP.

This is just more Miragesplaining™. When the point being made is that mirages have more evades than condi DD, these are both evades in the end. Their effectiveness really hardly matters, so understate/overstate away.

And i'm not really looking at things retrospectively. I don't mean to be rude, but if DD had more vigor than Mirage in the past; that really doesn't contribute anything to what the OP and myself are complaining about.

[Daishi.6027]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:and 6 from Nomads endurance. PvP is only 1.5sec per shatter.

This is right actually. I made an oopsie and i'll go back and fix.

Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to.

I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

so 5s from False Oasis5s from Critical infusionI don't think a grand total of 16 seconds across 5 cooldowns (many upwards of 20 second cooldowns), and a trait (with a 10 second cooldown) is what I'd call a lot.

Not counting CI is a bit of an unfair caveat, seeing as it has no internal CD. I hope if you aren't counting that, then you aren't counting on DD stealing vigor from someone either, because that's also RNG. There's also Bountiful Disillusionment as an alternative to CI entirely too, as @Tayga.3192 pointed out.

I don't think it's reasonable to calculate something as inconsistent as RNG, and they were never included in the calculations for either class.Bountiful disillusionment is fair but also keep in mind that it was really rare to find a mesmer going chaos after the PU nerfs in 2015, excluding maybe some chronobunk builds in season 5-7, long before the frequency of people running CI; and if people are going chaos now odds are you're taking CI.

Similarly speaking, if we're going to go back in time to make excuses for today; then guess what, i'm counting distort as an evade!I know you may not think it's a lot, and to your credit; you make it seem like a lot less, but even at base; it's more than DD gets. It's also more than almost every class in PvP gets, other than Holo/Scrapper.Brah common. I already pointed out that this was accounted for.@Daishi.6027 said:Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.That included distortion, and if mirage ran scepter block, axe, and offhand sword. specifically hitting all of the condi mirage meta variant build weapon sets. This also included power builds running sword for blurred frenzy.

To reiterate DD had MORE up time on damage mitigating cooldowns (that people just lumped together calling it evades), and this was BEFORE Mirage was nerfed, while DD maintained it's dodge. Also I'm going to reassert that EVEN IF DD lost out in that calculation; there is a significant difference between "oh no I'm going to get hit, dodge in response", VS "Oh no I'm going to get hit walks 900-1000 range, or blows a 30 second cooldown to trigger" (1)

And of course, that'd be ignoring CI or the 8s from Bountiful Disillusionment, and like I say; with how spammable CI is, there's potential for that number to be buffed longer, and that'd still be needless. At 16 seconds you can still bounce between Critical Infusion, CI, Nomad's Endurance, and False Oasis for close to, if not 100% uptime in theory, and regardless; you'd still have more vigor uptime than the majority of viable classes in PvP.

Sorry that isn't how that works. Even if there is no cooldown to the trait there is a cooldown to how often an interupt can be used, and in a meta game full of easy access evades/blocks/invulns, even with daze mantra, we're looking at a 12 second cool down and an over 2 second charge time that leaves you vulnerable, with one CC option per weapons set (some that are very clunky like torch, and offhand sword), and diversion shatter.Everything other than Mantra and Offhand sword (something not typically run) sports a cooldown upwards of 25 seconds capping at 38. Even if you land every CC you do not get 100% up time on mirage.

Mirrors although are evasions are stupidly easy to play around, your only control method is to walk into them, it's easy to just not waste a singe hit attack on someone walking into the obvious purple diamond thing, or to use the time to use a longer cast time, or multi hit skill. These are a dodge yes, but they aren't useful when you have to walk a certain distance away, or blow a significantly more valuable cooldown to trigger them.

Also let's not pretend the evasion on illusionary counter matters, it only exists as a bandaid so you aren't instantly vulnerable during the trigger animation. That was a band-aid fix A-net made back in 2017 after explicitly stating that they made the attack to long leaving you vulnerable, but wanted to keep the current speed.

So Mirage before the nerfs had less than DD, after the nerfs has significantly less vigor. To top it off a chunck of that evasion time is on a mechanic that is terribly designed for PvP.

This is just more Miragesplaining™. When the point being made is that mirages have more evades than condi DD, these are both evades in the end. Their effectiveness really hardly matters, so understate/overstate away.

(1) check my citation regarding effectiveness. But okay, I'll accept the answer that an evade is an evade.

And i'm not really looking at things retrospectively. I don't mean to be rude, but if DD had more vigor than Mirage in the past; that really doesn't contribute anything to what the OP and myself are complaining about.

I'll admit, I'm a bit less versed with the advent of Condi DD, and am willing to accept that perhaps specifically Condi DD may have less vigor. My argument from the start is DD, at least the power version and it's variants that have existed forever maintained their evasiveness while mirage got nerfed HARD.

Maybe in the context of condi DD I would suppose that would be a natural balancing factor for how powerful condi's get in this game, but I'll try not to speculate.However the over all mechanics are the same. They may be running a whole new set of traits and utilities in the advent of new traps, but with all that they may be making some trade offs to run a spec, that to be fair; hasn't really seen meta play and possibly for good reason.

Not to say it can't exist and grow into it's place, but much like how Power mirage under performs compared to it's condi counter part; Condi DD may do the same with it's power counterpart. Fact is it's relatively budding, and if it turns out to be an inferior build no one runs, not to say it shouldn't see some love to become viable; but it's hardly a standard to judge balance of another class on. After a new patch and new toys, we can't say for sure it's going to stick.

PS. the only thing I'd consider rude is the "MirageSplaining" thing. If only because it seems more like an ad hominem to discredit arguments than anything else.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Critical Infusion is 3secNomads is 1.5 sec per shatterCI random proc is 5secFalse oasis 5sec

Most importantly, you've to spec 3 traits dedicated to vigor.More than half of professions can attain perma-vigor with 1 or 2 traits.

So yeah, complaining about "evade spam" on mirage is dumb. But whatever, still the same tactic as ever, tell a lie 1000 times so it becomes a truth.

[BadMed.3846]

Totally agree with OP. Terrible design. Get it fixed please.

[Carnifex.3275]

I'm so triggered i won't even comment. Only thing i can say... Thief is a dying breed ever since post-HoT nerfing began. I can't believe that people still to this day want even more nerfs... My class is already a crippled war veteran beaten up by Anet numerous of times.. and u still want nerfs. W T F

[mortrialus.3062]

I've heard whispers of a new thief build that when combined with the new preparations can stack 60 poison in the span of about three seconds. Cannot confirm as I haven't seen it myself.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've heard whispers of a new thief build that when combined with the new preparations can stack 60 poison in the span of about three seconds. Cannot confirm as I haven't seen it myself.

Thousand needles last 5 secs.

So in theory you can get 8 stacks of poison from traits in this time with deadly ambition, panic strike, and potent poison.

If you are running spider venom you can add 6 more stacks of posion.

Sigil of doom proc add 1.

If this was enough to drop you below 50% health, panic strikes again and add 2.

Running devourer venom, add 4.

That would be 21.

If you could stack the spier venom with venom from leeching venoms, you could add 6 more stack.

To get that to work you would need to use another preparation .

But, we are at 27 stacks now.

Fire 3 body shots for 6 more stacks of poison from panic strike.

That's 33 stacks.

Now make it a duo of thieves.

66 stacks of poison.

If you drop devour for a stun break, the total is 58.

But, what the hell, let's call it 60.

Edit5 stacks from the trap,...make it 68 total....omegaomelet.

[King xiuras.3615]

Is this the epitome of fun?

Two guys decided to roll to mirage mesmer before the game even started. My team had to face two condi evading thieves with interrupts and 3 mirage mesmers.

Anet, play some pvp games and tell us if you still enjoy fighting this kind of builds? I bet ya won't....

https://i.imgur.com/FWa4Bn7.jpg