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Your DPS is Trash


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@IchigoHatake.5098 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:No.... you posted the screenshot as a big "look how everyone else sucks compared to me".

The whole point of me using that screenshot was to show that dps meter allows you to see who is not contributing.You really should have blacked out the names of other players, though. As far as i know showing those without their express agreement is still not allowed on these forums. If anything, that's exactly the kind of behaviour that gives dps meter users bad rep.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Listen, if you died immediately, you were far off from worrying about meta or top tier performance. Focus 5 does both: it protects your baseline aegis so that your uptime on Unscathed Contender (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unscathed_Contender) is better which is most important right when you start the fight since the DH rotation is very burst heavy. It also explodes if not triggered. The first benefit FAR outweighs the second (both in survivability and dps).

General Question because i didnt run fractals in ages.Do people seriously run UC at the Chaos endboss or fractals in general?

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Listen, if you died immediately, you were far off from worrying about meta or top tier performance. Focus 5 does both: it protects your baseline aegis so that your uptime on Unscathed Contender (
) is better which is most important right when you start the fight since the DH rotation is very burst heavy. It also explodes if not triggered. The first benefit FAR outweighs the second (both in survivability and dps).

General Question because i didnt run fractals in ages.Do people seriously run UC at the Chaos endboss or fractals in general?

Firebrigade and FB support in general allow for a lot better aegis uptime in fractals. Given most fractals don't have pulsing damage like raids, it is a lot easier to maintain aegis now for all players.

I could have obviously also just refered to scholar rune uptime being lost when damaged which again would have made any benefits from saving Focus 5 insignificant.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

We'll first even if you do 22 and the Meta is 26 doesn, t mean your gear is wrong, the boon uptime could be bad, their could be a mistake in your rotation etc.

About the privacy, consider your runninga raiding with 9 people who know their own dps, your dps can be easily calculated without using any of your actions, would you consider your dps private in that case?

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission.No, they're taking game data about your performance from
their
computer (Arc is
completely unable
to read anything from someone else's computer). The same as what happens when they look at you and see your wardrobe choices and dyes used.

If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy.They can look at your gea, because how that gear looks is a public information. What they can't do is look at your gear's
stats
, because that is private.So, the gear you use, traits you selected, skills you have are private. The outward look of gear, and your effectiveness when in encounter with othher players in your party is however
not
private.

Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear.Not really. There may be differences in gear. There maby be differences in traits. There may be differences in rotation. Or there may be some other things that lower your dps (like, for example, not dealing with mechanics too well). Someone with nonstandard build and gear may still perform better than a pure meta build, if the former does mechanics better than the latter, for example.

I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you.....No. But if i do make changes, i generally know
why
i made them, and why that made sense to me.

At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set.People that've seen the meta builds, and try to copy them without understanding them (and thus having no idea why their end result is so much worse) are a plague. Notice how the dps meters can easily point them out - because they don't understand the build, they won't be able to perform in it well. And that will show.

Again, dps meters are completely egalitarian in their judgement. It doesn't matter how you arrive at the end result - it's only that end result that counts. When it's good, nobody cares how you did it. They only care when it isn't good. And only when someone hopes to make it better by a method different than switching the problematic player out.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

First of all, the combat log data is not your information. It is being displayed client side but produced by the game servers. It is owned by Arenanet as a product of their server and being a result of their software. As such it can not be your private data since you never had any ownership over it.

The developers have been very clear on combat log data and what they allow and do not allow:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36163/we-need-an-official-position-from-anet-about-arcdps-and-taco/p2

Let me quote IWN from that thread:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

Official Statements: TACO

11 months ago,
:I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API.

:Being a former MMO dev myself I specifically set strict rules for the development of TacO in order to keep it as legit as possible. I fully intend to keep it that way.

(If you read further, one of QT's infamous members asks some follow-up questions, with some helpful responses by TACO's developer, some of which remain relevant today.)

and

, Redditor MairnSA wroteI have made a timer for the Dhuum fight for GW2TacO. It includes timers for all three wisps and the Soul Split mechanic, as well as POI for all Reapers, which matches the callouts done by the timer.Chris Cleary replied:I've reviewed this, this is fine.This isn't anywhere close to DBM or Bigwigs. This is what's called a "dumb" timer. It runs independent of any information from the client while using existing tech from Taco. Review the code if you want, I did. It's nothing more than markers and a stopwatch (not putting down the author, just trying to explain).

If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me.


Official Position ArcDPS: DPS Measuring

@"Chris Cleary.8017" wrote in October 2017

The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state.

Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations.

This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action.

and

, @"Chris Cleary.8017" wrote on Reddit:We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement.

So, does that mean memory reading DPS readers are OK as long as they are only parsing combat data?You are correct. Combat data is defined as any information that is created due to the usage of skills or impact on players due to skill usage (by the player/s or an outside source).

Edit/Update: These statements are particularly targeted at a "DPS Meter" or functionality built around the capture of combat data. Features outside of that most likely fall under "Quality of Life" changes and should be removed from DPS meters if they want to be considered compliant with our rules.

and again

, Chris Cleary wrote on Reddit:ArenaNet authorizes the use and development of 3rd Party tools under the banner of a "DPS Meter". "DPS Meters" is defined as the collection and processing of combat related data in order to develop a statistical and visual representation of that data. This combat data maybe collected from anyone inside of your immediate social group. Social groups are defined as including the player character, and current party and/or squad.

Combat data does not include current entity status, including current Buffs/Debuffs/Health/Stats/Location or any other data that is not generated due to the usage of skills or impact on player characters due to skill usage (by the PC/s or an outside source).

The collection and processing of data in the client must be limited to the scope of the "DPS meter" and should not exceed it. Visualization of this data must also limited to the scope of the "DPS Meter" which includes visualizations, logging, and processing/visualization of logging.

ArcDPS Official Statements: Build Template/Loadout Features

, ArcDPS developer
DeltaConnected
wrote:I now have the all clear for build templates. arcdps serves as the framework for the time being
About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client.

This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat.

I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others).

In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use".

This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon.


Further reading:

This discussion has been had mutliple times in the past. It has always ended the same way and it will end the same way unless Arenanet and the developers change their mind.

The alternative is this:

  • make character related combat data voluntary to share
  • not get taken along in any groups if you are unwilling to share with

I for one would not care at all about sharing my combat data and would not blink with an eye to exclude any one who keeps it secret from any training raids or fractal groups I run.

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@Zero.6082 said:But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered.

The replies above this one have all the extra info you need but to answer this part, I did answer your question. If you know what privacy is, or rather private data/information, then you should know dps meters do not violate them. The fact that you didn't like the answer is irrelevant.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered.

The replies above this one have all the extra info you need but to answer this part, I did answer your question. If you know what privacy is, or rather private data/information, then you should know dps meters do not violate them. The fact that you didn't like the answer is irrelevant.

But you didn’t answer the question. Others did. Which partially makes sense. But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice. So question again if their are so many factors in dps that means the meters are subjective calls. Thus, you can’t use them as a base of measure. Further more that is data I am contributing and producing for the server. Thus yes you pull the data from the server but how did they get the data? By using my data. If I make a few tweaks that effects my data so simple cause and effect they are releasing my data to you if you have that app. Simple fact is if it was to be part of the game why is it not in the game. Answer I guess at is, that cause and effect reason and they can bounce the argument we allowed it but that is the players choice. Especially when it’s contradicting their creed of play how you want and don’t be mean to players who have a build you don’t like. I mean why don’t they just display your data for all to see if they wanted people to see the data you produce.... I think it’s appeasements to the elite raiding class not a policy they wanted, to get you to play.

Moreover, this an argument about toxicity from the use of the meters. Now most can argue that a personal dps meter makes sense for education and I am all for that. But dps meters for a group is an act of big brothers watching you and a way of players to control other players. It’s simple oppression at its finest of play my way or else mentally with a subjective twist, because no one here has the data for every single dps example. It also adds more stress because people preform worse under pressure, so you could be a root cause to their lack of dps. Thus,you can’t be objective. If you want me to use it properly I need to know the max consistent dps for every class, With every party combination, with every boss. Which we can all agree is impossible especially because it would have to be redone as soon as they patch. The golems don't count because that is perfect world, perfect paper.

So in conclusion personal dps meter good and education argument is valid. Dps meter for the team is you subjecting your control over me using my data provided to the server to get an outcome you want. Thus the entire point of toxic gameplay. I can conclude that if you are for team dps meters you are automatically for toxic gameplay. Mostly because you can’t educate me on subjective calls, only complain or kick when I don’t give you the results you want. People have beat the bosses in greens so no one here can tell me dps or stats is the factor for win or lose. It’s efficiency, group chemistry, and hard work. None of which can be measured by a toxic calculation. A dead player provides 0 dps. Reviving your downed team mate is 0. I think it’s the culture we live in that causes the trouble, but we have to stop measuring everything. What is the number measurement for a good parent? A best friend? A great video game team? But hey you win I don’t raid because of this. So you got what you wanted I think? Less players, playing, less support for the content?

Remember everyone big brother is watching you!

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@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

Novody is forcing you to do anything.

Here is what it comes down to:A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

Groups are made with certain requirements. When you join one of those groups, you either fullfill one of the requirements the other 4 or 9 people have setup, or you get booted. You can also make your own group and make your own requirements. You don't get to dictate to the other people in the group what they have and have not to accept in performance unless it's your group. In which you'd still need to have concensus with most of the players or else they might leave.

Welcome to team sports 101.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

Recreational team sports are just like professional sports. A soccer team needs a goaly and different positions for their players. You get to decide how ambitious the team you join can be.

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@"Zero.6082" said:So question again if their are so many factors in dps that means the meters are subjective calls.No, the meters are completely objective. They don't interpret the data, they only provide it. What you do with that data is up to you.

Thus, you can’t use them as a base of measure.You don't. You compare to other players.

Further more that is data I am contributing and producing for the server. Thus yes you pull the data from the server but how did they get the data? By using my data. If I make a few tweaks that effects my data so simple cause and effect they are releasing my data to you if you have that app.First, you assume they are releasing the data. They don't. They release the effects of your data. Not the data itself. Second, you assume it's your data, when it isn't. You actually agreed on Anet doing whatever they want with that data the moment you signed into this game. Third, you assume it's them giving out that data, when it is you, by participating in a group content, that is sharing it with others. By your own choice.

I gave you an example already: the skins you use for your armor. These may be private, but the moment you decide to appear in a place where others can see you, you have voluntarily shared that data with them.

Simple fact is if it was to be part of the game why is it not in the game.Two reasons. First, Anet didn't anticipate the need for it - and in fact, there wasn't any serious demand for it up until raids. Second, while Anet is not against the use of this tool, it doesn't mean they want to promote it, or want it to be used by everyone. Now it's still in hands of a relatively minor group - the group that does care about stuff like ingame effectiveness. Would you really want everyone to be using it? In open world, for example?

Answer I guess at is, that cause and effect reason and they can bounce the argument we allowed it but that is the players choice.Yes, it's the players' choice. You don't have to play with people that use dps meters.

Especially when it’s contradicting their creed of play how you want and don’t be mean to players who have a build you don’t like.If someone is mean to you because you have a build they don't like, do report him. If they are however concerned with your effectivness in a content that requires certain level of it, it's fully their right. If you want to blame something, blame the content for demanding you perform above your ability. Not the players for not wanting to pick up the slack after you.

I mean why don’t they just display your data for all to see if they wanted people to see the data you produce....Be careful what you wish for. Anet might provide.

I think it’s appeasements to the elite raiding class not a policy they wanted, to get you to play.Perhaps. On the other hand it is a tool practically uniformly used only in content made for those very same players. Even if someone has it running in Open World, nobody really looks at the output, and they definitely do not call out people for what they see. Unless they're kitten, but they'd be kitten even without the tool.

Moreover, this an argument about toxicity from the use of the meters. Now most can argue that a personal dps meter makes sense for education and I am all for that. But dps meters for a group is an act of big brothers watching you and a way of players to control other players. It’s simple oppression at its finest of play my wayIf an encounter requires certain level of effectiveness to succesfully complete, then it's no longer "play my way". And having other players demand you fulfill those requirements is neither toxicity, nor opression. Again, if it's a problem, it is a problem with the content itself, not with the tool.

If you want me to use it properly I need to know the max consistent dps for every class, With every party combination, with every boss.It's called gw2raidar.

Which we can all agree is impossible especially because it would have to be redone as soon as they patch.And that's exactly what happens.

I can conclude that if you are for team dps meters you are automatically for toxic gameplay.You are assuming a lot. But okay, i'm a toxic raider. Yep, that's me.

Mostly because you can’t educate me on subjective calls, only complain or kick when I don’t give you the results you want.Yes, that's how it usually works. If you can't provide the results, you're out. Unless you're playing with friends that are willing to dedicate their time and effort to helping you out (either by teaching or carrying you). Or playing the content where it isn't important.

People have beat the bosses in greens so no one here can tell me dps or stats is the factor for win or lose.I checked that log from Dhuum CM. They had better dps than i usually have in ascended. Yes, dps was definitely a factor.(hint: if you were to play as good as people that clear the bosses in greens, nobody would say a word to you about your dps).

Reviving your downed team mate is 0. I think it’s the culture we live in that causes the trouble, but we have to stop measuring everything. What is the number measurement for a good parent? A best friend? A great video game team? But hey you win I don’t raid because of this. So you got what you wanted I think? Less players, playing, less support for the content?It's the content difficulty that made you not play raids. Not the meters. Without the meters the difficulty would still be the same - and other players would be even more demanding, because it wouldn't be as easily to see who passes muster and who doesn't.

Remember everyone big brother is watching you!

Of course. This is an MMO, not single player. As long as you play in a group, you are always watched.

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@"Zero.6082" said:But you didn’t answer the question. Others did. Which partially makes sense. But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

He didn't insult you. He just told you again that the dmg stats you are performing in a group/squad are not private information. Anet said so and they make the rules. He is absolutely right when saying you didn't like the answer but that this is completely irrelevant in terms of straight facts!

So question again if their are so many factors in dps that means the meters are subjective calls. Thus, you can’t use them as a base of measure. Further more that is data I am contributing and producing for the server. Thus yes you pull the data from the server but how did they get the data? By using my data. If I make a few tweaks that effects my data so simple cause and effect they are releasing my data to you if you have that app. Simple fact is if it was to be part of the game why is it not in the game. Answer I guess at is, that cause and effect reason and they can bounce the argument we allowed it but that is the players choice. Especially when it’s contradicting their creed of play how you want and don’t be mean to players who have a build you don’t like. I mean why don’t they just display your data for all to see if they wanted people to see the data you produce.... I think it’s appeasements to the elite raiding class not a policy they wanted, to get you to play.

Allowing to use dps meters is not in the slightest a contradiction of play how you want. You are still able to join whatever group you can and you want but if the group has requirements you should fulfill them or take the risk of getting booted. We have to address explicitly that requirements of groups were more strict before the introduction of dps meters in GW2. I don't know if you have already played before HoT and raids. I have and it was not easy for non-meta people to run dungeons. Either it took very long outside of the easier dungeons or you had to abandon runs for example Crucible of Eternity and Arah. I led a lot of players through there to teach them the dungeons and often ended with leavers, soloing/duoing bosses with a mate or even complete disbanding groups because they had no endurance and were impatient. In standard "exp zerker" runs you didn't run into those issues and you were fast. Of course they were not 100% perfectly but when I wanted to have my full daily dungeon tour it was always doable in those groups but not realistic in groups without meta and/or experienced players. In addition I would estimate that far more than 90% of the player base has no clue about being efficient even in shorter dungeons. We realized that when we were 3-4 guild members carrying 1-2 pugs with us and at the end they wrote: "How did that go so fast? I've never seen this." and we didn't exploit anything. Even today people refuse to play Arah although the hardest path can be done in under 20 minutes if you know what you are doing.

Moreover, this an argument about toxicity from the use of the meters. Now most can argue that a personal dps meter makes sense for education and I am all for that. But dps meters for a group is an act of big brothers watching you and a way of players to control other players. It’s simple oppression at its finest of play my way or else mentally with a subjective twist, because no one here has the data for every single dps example. It also adds more stress because people preform worse under pressure, so you could be a root cause to their lack of dps. Thus,you can’t be objective. If you want me to use it properly I need to know the max consistent dps for every class, With every party combination, with every boss. Which we can all agree is impossible especially because it would have to be redone as soon as they patch. The golems don't count because that is perfect world, perfect paper.

  1. and this won't convince you: If you do your job you won't hear anything about your dps in pugs. That's a fact. I already stated that in one of my posts before.

  2. You choose to join the relevant groups for you. If you are afraid of being monitored don't join those groups with requirements. For fractals this is easy by looking for the tag "chilled run" or similar lfgs. If there's none set up your own lfg and you'll get enough relaxed players. The only problem that can occur is that you won't manage several encounters. Mai Trin, the first room in Underground Facility, the ooze in Thaumanova, Nightmare, Shattered Observatory, Twilight Oasis & Siren's Reef because those have mechanics a lot of "relaxed" players don't know or are not in the mood to deal with.

  3. You don't need to know every dps benchmark and every output on every boss of every class. You just need a proper understanding of how much you could be doing and then estimate around that. There are very easy bosses like Mursaat Overseer which is basically a moving golem from the Lions Arch Aerodrome and harder ones where people have to stop their damage, leave the squad for mechanics so their dps will go down of course. Nevertheless a dps meter can show you the incredible differences if they occur. There's a lot of buffer but not indefinitely and if you join as a dps class and pull off 5k in total it means that you just press 1 like the open world crew on world bosses and with that you won't kill a raid boss (outside of an almost full heal squad tanking through enrage timer). And it's those numbers that people call out not if top dps is 24k and you do 20k for example.

So in conclusion personal dps meter good and education argument is valid. Dps meter for the team is you subjecting your control over me using my data provided to the server to get an outcome you want. Thus the entire point of toxic gameplay. I can conclude that if you are for team dps meters you are automatically for toxic gameplay. Mostly because you can’t educate me on subjective calls, only complain or kick when I don’t give you the results you want. People have beat the bosses in greens so no one here can tell me dps or stats is the factor for win or lose. It’s efficiency, group chemistry, and hard work. None of which can be measured by a toxic calculation. A dead player provides 0 dps. Reviving your downed team mate is

  1. I think it’s the culture we live in that causes the trouble, but we have to stop measuring everything. What is the number measurement for a good parent? A best friend? A great video game team? But hey you win I don’t raid because of this. So you got what you wanted I think? Less players, playing, less support for the content?

Remember everyone big brother is watching you!

Toxic elements are present everywhere in the game. PvP, WvW and very often open world PvE content. I've read a lot of toxic comments in map chat recently be it during events or on festival maps where everybody should have fun to play very easy content. It's the people who are toxic and the reason is not a dps meter. Toxic group & group leaders will kick you no matter what.And again, it's a different thing if the state, organizations or companies know what I'm doing every second and have my private data or a group of random people in an online game that can see some virtual numbers that don't have any impact on my rl situation.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Novody is forcing you to do anything.

Yes you are you say later on I have to play one of the specific roles.

Here is what it comes down to:A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

No it doesn’t people have beaten raids in green gear. So defend that....

Groups are made with certain requirements. When you join one of those groups, you either fullfill one of the requirements the other 4 or 9 people have setup, or you get booted. You can also make your own group and make your own requirements. You don't get to dictate to the other people in the group what they have and have not to accept in performance unless it's your group. In which you'd still need to have concensus with most of the players or else they might leave.

Welcome to team sports 101.

It’s not a professional team. When you play football recreational do you fill every position? Do you have a running back? A full back? A designated kicker.... no you play with what you got. Your argument is relying on professional sports not a pick up group sport. When you play rec base ball do you play first base and only first base? Are you required to do so. No you can swap and change. Do you bench players in rec sports? Also if you did a rec sport do you kick them if they miss a few balls thrown at first base?Gw2 raids you do.

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

Recreational team sports are just like professional sports. A soccer team needs a goaly and different positions for their players. You get to decide how ambitious the team you join can be.

Except your forgetting the distinction of the rules. Of sports. Can you have two goalies? How many tanks can you have? Healers? dps? Who wrote down the guild wars 2 raid rules? But what I was explaining was not the position but the level of which you play the position. You want Payton Manning on your rec team.... not a plain quarterback.

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DPS Meters are fine. It is good that we have access to rough estimates of whats incoming/outgoing, and tidbits on who did/didnt do something, I think. The problems that come from how the players interpret the information and react to it is not the fault of the information gatherer, but the players themselves....and I dont think taking that information away would benefit anyone beyond those who have something to hide.

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@Zero.6082 said:

Novody is forcing you to do anything.

Yes you are you say later on I have to play one of the specific roles.

Litereally every single LFG tells people what is still needed. If it doesn't the content is usually trivial enough to not matter.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Here is what it comes down to:A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

No it doesn’t people have beaten raids in green gear. So defend that....

Yes, people who are playing this game on a skill level 10 times higher than yours. Get on that level and you get to play in green gear too.

@Zero.6082 said:

Groups are made with certain requirements. When you join one of those groups, you either fullfill one of the requirements the other 4 or 9 people have setup, or you get booted. You can also make your own group and make your own requirements. You don't get to dictate to the other people in the group what they have and have not to accept in performance unless it's your group. In which you'd still need to have concensus with most of the players or else they might leave.

Welcome to team sports 101.

It’s not a professional team. When you play football recreational do you fill every position? Do you have a running back? A full back? A designated kicker.... no you play with what you got. Your argument is relying on professional sports not a pick up group sport. When you play rec base ball do you play first base and only first base? Are you required to do so. No you can swap and change. Do you bench players in rec sports? Also if you did a rec sport do you kick them if they miss a few balls thrown at first base?Gw2 raids you do.

Yes you do, if you are playing in a team with proper setup and even the smallest teams have those positions covered. Now if you play with your friends and just mess around, then you might forgo those positions. You are not aiming to beat any one, there is no challenge to overcome and it is fine. That's like playing open world content semi afk here.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

Recreational team sports are just like professional sports. A soccer team needs a goaly and different positions for their players. You get to decide how ambitious the team you join can be.

Except your forgetting the distinction of the rules. Of sports. Can you have two goalies? How many tanks can you have? Healers? dps? Who wrote down the guild wars 2 raid rules? But what I was explaining was not the position but the level of which you play the position. You want Payton Manning on your rec team.... not a plain quarterback.

No, in that GW2 is more flexible. It allows you do have no goalies or 5 goalies for certain content. It depends on what the other people in your team are willing to accept.

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@Zero.6082 said:

Novody is forcing you to do anything.

Yes you are you say later on I have to play one of the specific roles.

Here is what it comes down to:A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

No it doesn’t people have beaten raids in green gear. So defend that....

How skilled are these players and how polished are their builds and rotations compared to your average player?Also how do you think they got so good and fine tuned so quickly?

Also saying people can do it in greens so you don't need certain performance , builds gear etc is kind of a slight on those who have done it. Not only on how much work they have put in to get there but also their skill. They are literally replacing some of the other requirements with sheer skills and knowledge. More effort than most are able/willing to actually put in.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Zero.6082" said:But you didn’t answer the question. Others did. Which partially makes sense. But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

He didn't insult you. He just told you again that the dmg stats you are performing in a group/squad are not private information. Anet said so and they make the rules. He is absolutely right when saying you didn't like the answer but that this is completely irrelevant in terms of straight facts!

Lets give you the context and for everyone here so that way we don't straw man the argument like above. He first stated, "That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say." That implies i am dumb... instead of answering my question... Then he said, "The replies above this one have all the extra info you need but to answer this part, I did answer your question. If you know what privacy is, or rather private data/information, then you should know dps meters do not violate them. The fact that you didn't like the answer is irrelevant." First off no he did answer the question first bold he insulted me for be dumb for not knowing what privacy is. Then he lies says he answered my question when he didn't and implied i didn't like his answer because i am to dumb to realize he answered the question when he didn't.

But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

Again I want the game to be welcoming to all kinds of players. I don't raid because of that. I gave an example of a time i almost quit because it bothers me some one is watching me every move and judging me through a subjective lens under paper perfect conditions from a website that they googled. I care about longevity of the game and fun that we are having. If people are quiting because, other people are pushing their idea of the perfect game down their throat and using a meter that can not even be proven as perfect... i have a problem with that, because your use a subjective call to make people angry and quit.

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@Zero.6082 said:But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

@Zero.6082 said:But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

This information was already given to you: gw2raidar

@Zero.6082 said:Again I want the game to be welcoming to all kinds of players. I don't raid because of that. I gave an example of a time i almost quit because it bothers me some one is watching me every move and judging me through a subjective lens under paper perfect conditions from a website that they googled. I care about longevity of the game and fun that we are having. If people are quiting because, other people are pushing their idea of the perfect game down their throat and using a meter that can not even be proven as perfect... i have a problem with that, because your use a subjective call to make people angry and quit.

Why you raid or do not raid is up to you. If people are qutitting because they are not able to work within a social and group structure because they don't get their way, then they have no room in group oriented content. Those people are free to make their own groups with their own rules.

Unfortunatly most players want loot. Loot requires success. Success requires performance.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. Its not your game data. You use the game client to send actions and character data to the server. This can be things like what skins I'm using, what mount I decide to mount on, what skill do I use, what consumable buff do I use. You send all of this to anet. The anet game server then sends that data to all visible players around you so that their game clients know how to render the world. If they dont get this, you wont see players on their mounts, you wont see players playing skill animations, you wont see how many stacks of torment a mobs has on it generated from someone else. The game server has to tell each client how much damage a mob has taken as well as from what sources in order to maintain the world. If it ever becomes asynchronous, you create a situation where a mob could have died for one client and not the other, or certain conditions are there for one client and not the other (eg. Deal bonus damage while target is stunned).

So what does this all mean? When you boot up gw2 you are willingly subjecting yourself to having your combat and character data sent to anet and also having yours and other players data sent to you. Arc is not reading anything off your computer. It is taking data sent from anet servers to me. At that point it's my data that my game client is receiving. That is the client server architecture. If you dont want your data sent to the server and shared with players around you your only option is to alt f4. This also happens in all game modes not just raids and fractals.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

But you kick on the subjective not the objective.

@Zero.6082 said:But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

This information was already given to you:Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...

@Zero.6082 said:Again I want the game to be welcoming to all kinds of players. I don't raid because of that. I gave an example of a time i almost quit because it bothers me some one is watching me every move and judging me through a subjective lens under paper perfect conditions from a website that they googled. I care about longevity of the game and fun that we are having. If people are quiting because, other people are pushing their idea of the perfect game down their throat and using a meter that can not even be proven as perfect... i have a problem with that, because your use a subjective call to make people angry and quit.

Why you raid or do not raid is up to you. If people are qutitting because they are not able to work within a social and group structure because they don't get their way, then they have no room in group oriented content. Those people are free to make their own groups with their own rules.

Unfortunatly most players want loot. Loot requires success. Success requires performance.

Loot is easy I arguably get more loot from dragons fall then I got from the 4 raids I completed. Second I don’t have to adhere to you social structure because I want to. You force me to. You just said it in the statement conform or get out... what do I conform to. You are not my authority nor do you pay me. So why should I conform. Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed. Which is a mess. Because fastest way to beat a raid is to pay someone else to cross the finish line. But if your subjecting everyone to a specific rotation and build. Arguably it’s not an open world mmo where you bring creativity and learn to work as a group with what you got. But a shallow hole of dance dance revolution.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

But you kick on the subjective not the objective.

No, you kick based on what the group has adhered to or what is demanded. As mentioned by others, if you bring what the group has asked for, you will never get kicked.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:@Zero.6082 said:But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

This information was already given to you:Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...

That is nonsense. Go again. GW2raidar has top performing builds for each boss and shows everything from top 1% percentile to 50th percentile.

Dodging and reviving are of no consequence. They will also not make or break your performance even if they reduce your result. Also let's not get into this argument again, it gets tiresome to have to repeat the same things over and over. Dodging and reviving is part of a learn process and understanding of boss mechanics.

@Zero.6082 said:Again I want the game to be welcoming to all kinds of players. I don't raid because of that. I gave an example of a time i almost quit because it bothers me some one is watching me every move and judging me through a subjective lens under paper perfect conditions from a website that they googled. I care about longevity of the game and fun that we are having. If people are quiting because, other people are pushing their idea of the perfect game down their throat and using a meter that can not even be proven as perfect... i have a problem with that, because your use a subjective call to make people angry and quit.

Why you raid or do not raid is up to you. If people are qutitting because they are not able to work within a social and group structure because they don't get their way, then they have no room in group oriented content. Those people are free to make their own groups with their own rules.

Unfortunatly most players want loot. Loot requires success. Success requires performance.

Loot is easy I arguably get more loot from dragons fall then I got from the 4 raids I completed. Second I don’t have to adhere to you social structure because I want to. You force me to.

I'm not forcing you to do anything. If I join your group, I'll do what is asked of me. If you join mine, you'll do what is asked. I am not holding a gun to your head demanding you join my group. You are basolutely free to do as you please.

As far as loot, not all loot is measured in gold per hour. Obviously most people going into raids do it for raid unique loot, or am I mistaken?

@Zero.6082 said:You just said it in the statement conform or get out... what do I conform to. You are not my authority nor do you pay me. So why should I conform.

Because it's my group (or someone elses group) and I am in charge of making sure it succeeds. You are free to join and accept the conditions I have set, not join and even make your own group. It's called a social contract and every player agrees to the one when joining a group. You are literally demanding I take you making me nothing better than a slave to your demand or whim. I am free to chose who I want to play with, just like you.

@Zero.6082 said:Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed.

My argument is for success. Speed can be a biproduct of success. Open world content nearly always succeed, as such it makes no difference what people run. Last time I chedk, raids and high level fractals are not guaranteed success.

You do what is necessary to fullfill the role you have taken on. You can come up with your own build and as long as it performs satisfactory you will have no issue and no one will be able to tell. Most people are not willing to invest this much time and simply copy other people's work which causes other issues (like lack of understanding).

If you want people to do as you want in their group: pay them. There is raid sellers and I guarantee you, they will do exactly as you ask, for a price.

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