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Your DPS is Trash


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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

But you kick on the subjective not the objective.

No, you kick based on what the group has adhered to or what is demanded. As mentioned by others, if you bring what the group has asked for, you will never get kicked.

Do you not realize when to say adhere or demanded... that means force. The issue is not one or to groups. It’s that you all follow blindly an organization or website and enforce their rules. If your so flexible can I bring a healer firebrand instead of a Druid? No because it doesn’t adhere to a websites demand.

@Zero.6082 said:@Zero.6082 said:But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

This information was already given to you:Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...

That is nonsense. Go again. GW2raidar has top performing builds for each boss and shows everything from top 1% percentile to 50th percentile.

The people who submit are pros I have to adhere to Lebrun James skill to play basket ball with you? Woah bro calm down.

.

I'm not forcing you to do anything. If I join your group, I'll do what is asked of me. If you join mine, you'll do what is asked. I am not holding a gun to your head demanding you join my group. You are basolutely free to do as you please.

To join your group, I am a pug there is no sign that says if you don’t do what I want I kick you.

@Zero.6082 said:Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed.

My argument is for success. Speed can be a biproduct of success. Open world content nearly always succeed, as such it makes no difference what people run. Last time I chedk, raids and high level fractals are not guaranteed success.

You do what is necessary to fullfill the role you have taken on. You can come up with your own build and as long as it performs satisfactory you will have no issue and no one will be able to tell. Most people are not willing to invest this much time and simply copy other people's work which causes other issues (like lack of understanding).

No I am not free to play with whoever because you just said I can’t play with you if I don’t do what you want. You also don’t care what succeeds. Because a firebrand healer isn’t a Druid. It may succeed, but who cares your meter and idealized website said no, so it is no. Your forcing a subjective optimized build for a specific set of players. Claiming fair, but saying no go. If I delete the websites and the meters? How do you know what your comp looks like? You can’t, forcing players to follow an authority that is subjective, do you expect everyone to conform? Is there no other way to win then to meter dps and use your meta? I find that hard to believe... I thought the game takes skill, but if it is as simple as following instructions. I guess I should find the easiest instruction, download a meter and jump back into raids. Is that the gate way to success good enough for you? Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that. Thus defeating your dps meter and realizing the game is about good old fashion work, and practice.... not a specific set number.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

But you kick on the subjective not the objective.

No, you kick based on what the group has adhered to or what is demanded. As mentioned by others, if you bring what the group has asked for, you will never get kicked.

Do you not realize when to say adhere or demanded... that means force. The issue is not one or to groups. It’s that you all follow blindly an organization or website and enforce their rules. If your so flexible can I bring a healer firebrand instead of a Druid? No because it doesn’t adhere to a websites demand.

No, you are forcing others to accept your class choice when you do not bring what they asked for. No one is your slave. You are joining some one elses group. Make your own.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:@Zero.6082 said:But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

This information was already given to you:Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...

That is nonsense. Go again. GW2raidar has top performing builds for each boss and shows everything from top 1% percentile to 50th percentile.

The people who submit are pros I have to adhere to Lebrun James skill to play basket ball with you? Woah bro calm down.

You do not understand how gw2raidar works. No, it is not submitted by pros. Otherwise there would not be a 50th or lower percentile. Please either educate yourself or refrain to comment on this issue because you are showing you do not understand the website.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm not forcing you to do anything. If I join your group, I'll do what is asked of me. If you join mine, you'll do what is asked. I am not holding a gun to your head demanding you join my group. You are basolutely free to do as you please.

To join your group, I am a pug there is no sign that says if you don’t do what I want I kick you.

Yes there is: it's my LFG message. The message which tells others what I am looking for. Again, I am not your slave. I don't have to do what you want when you join my group. Everybody joining my group accepts this.

If you want to dictate the rules, make your own group for which you are in charge of succees.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed.

My argument is for success. Speed can be a biproduct of success. Open world content nearly always succeed, as such it makes no difference what people run. Last time I chedk, raids and high level fractals are not guaranteed success.

You do what is necessary to fullfill the role you have taken on. You can come up with your own build and as long as it performs satisfactory you will have no issue and no one will be able to tell. Most people are not willing to invest this much time and simply copy other people's work which causes other issues (like lack of understanding).

No I am not free to play with whoever because you just said I can’t play with you if I don’t do what you want.

Exaclty, we both have the freedom to chose who and how we want to play. You don't get to restrict my freedom. If I want to run with like minded people who want to run meta builds, that is my choice and you have no right to take that from me.

You can play however you want and with whomever you want if they are likeminded and accept your choices and I have no right to restrict you unless it is me being affected. That includes not bademouthing you or anything else. But as far as you being allowed to play with me, we both need to agree.

Choice is the same for both of us. I get to chose whom I play with and my choice extends all the way to the other persons will to accept or not. I do not get to force others to play with me, neither do they get to do that to me.

@Zero.6082 said:You also don’t care what succeeds. Because a firebrand healer isn’t a Druid. It may succeed, but who cares your meter and idealized website said no, so it is no. Your forcing a subjective optimized build for a specific set of players.

Don't start with me about success. I guarantee you I have a 100 times better understanding of what can and will succeed than you. Most of it coming from over 4 years of raiding and over hundreds of boss kills.

If you want to run something else, do it. I am not stopping you. If I make a judgement call and want a certain class for MY PARTY, I get to make that call and if it's a bad call, people will likely leave.

@Zero.6082 said:Claiming fair, but saying no go. If I delete the websites and the meters? How do you know what your comp looks like?

Exaclty, that's how it was before. People were kicked based on class and class alone, not performance. Glad you understand. Oh, people were still kicked, a lot. Especially rangers and necromancers were nearly impossible to find groups for.

@Zero.6082 said:You can’t, forcing players to follow an authority that is subjective, do you expect everyone to conform?Yes I do for my group. You can do what ever you want for your groups.

Here is a suggestion, how about you put your money where your mouth is and actually start making groups and clearing challenging content. I have lead a ton of groups and squad through pretty much every content this game has to offer from training groups, to chill runs to progress raids. You have done none of that but demand everything, including my time. Stop leeching off of other people's work, stop using meta builds, do your own work and succeed, then come back and tell others how they should play.

@Zero.6082 said:Is there no other way to win then to meter dps and use your meta? I find that hard to believe... I thought the game takes skill, but if it is as simple as following instructions. I guess I should find the easiest instruction, download a meter and jump back into raids. Is that the gate way to success good enough for you?

If that works for you, go ahead.

@Zero.6082 said:Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that. Thus defeating your dps meter and realizing the game is about good old fashion work, and practice.... not a specific set number.

There is dozens of ways to complete content. You said it yourself, pro raiders have cleared the content in green gear (and please stop making this referance, you are miles below in player skill what any of those players can perform). You don't even need boons. Most people are unwilling to do their own work though so they copy builds and group setups. Be different, make your own builds, make your own groups with or without boons and get people to join and agree the game should be played that way. Best of Luck.

TD;DR:stop being entitled and expect others to take you because you demand it. Either make your own group or accept other people's demands when joining theirs.

I am done with this, we are going in circles. You are either to entitled and/or to stubborn to allow other people the same freedoms you demand for yourself. The choice is the same for all here, and I will make use of mine the way I see fit without infringing on yours.

EDIT: small typos

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@Zero.6082 said:Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.

Because they are literally GOOD at the game and those are maybe 1-2% of the whole GW2 community. If you have been in groups or squads with those players you would be able to compare them with the standard groups you're in regularly. Hint: They are miles away from what you experience every other day.Trying to explain this too you over several posts now is starting to become annoying tbh.

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@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

TD;DR:stop being entitled and expect others to take you because you demand it. Either make your own group or accept other people's demands when joining theirs.

I am done with this, we are going in circles. You are either to entitled and/or to stubbron to allow other people the same freedoms you demand for yourself. The choice is the same for all here, and I will make use of mine the way I see fit without infringing on yours.

I am not infringing on your rights nor am I entitled. Kitten I don’t even raid. I just don’t like someone at lebron level like you ridiculing me about my performance in a video game with a tool they think is objectively perfect. I want to have fun. I play maybe 10 hours a week if am lucky... mostly on a weekend. There is plenty of other things to do. Sorry we can’t all dedicate our lives to your perfection. I was suggesting an alternative of idk checking our entitlements at the door. But you don’t use the meter to help educate. you use it to weed out the potential learners to find the superstars. Which you don’t need in a kitten video game. If superstars can do it with greens maybe weaker players can do it with different build or exotics? But for you No chances no thoughts. You must have been that kid in school that didn’t let others play football with you because they weren’t part of your cool crowd. But this comment, is totally bogus I didn’t ask for dps meters and didn’t have them in 2015. And as you can see by this thread if it didn’t cause problems why are we arguing? Mr. Libertarian, explain how we all got the choice for you to watch our faults or success and decide well that isn’t good enough? I am the entitled one. It’s a video game... I am not demanding anything I don’t care about who takes me. I care that people quit because their dps is “trash” thus everyone loses because no one plays.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.

Because they are literally
GOOD
at the game and those are maybe 1-2% of the whole GW2 community. If you have been in groups or squads with those players you would be able to compare them with the standard groups you're in regularly. Hint: They are miles away from what you experience every other day.Trying to explain this too you over several posts now is starting to become annoying tbh.

But you kick them before they can practice and get good. Because their dps is not good under mechanics. You want a pro with out the practice. Which is why I don’t raid. I am not pro you see that in your meter.... good bye me. But you guys don’t care about the players on the other side of the screen. You show you care about the numbers.

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@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

LOL this

also, since when the heck was knowing someone's dps considered an invasion of privacy @__@ like dude it is not spying on what you're doing in the bedroom, asking about personal healthcare info, or uhh stealing your credit card number

it's literally just dps in a game LOL

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@Zero.6082 said:

TD;DR:stop being entitled and expect others to take you because you demand it. Either make your own group or accept other people's demands when joining theirs.

I am done with this, we are going in circles. You are either to entitled and/or to stubbron to allow other people the same freedoms you demand for yourself. The choice is the same for all here, and I will make use of mine the way I see fit without infringing on yours.

I am not infringing on your rights nor am I entitled. Kitten I don’t even raid. I just don’t like someone at lebron level like you ridiculing me about my performance in a video game with a tool they think is objectively perfect. I want to have fun. I play maybe 10 hours a week if am lucky... mostly on a weekend.

When did I ridicule you? I gave you suggestions how to improve your gameplay after you decided to:A. badmouth a group you were inB. decided that my advice was not applicable to you (fair enough, in the future I will refrain from giving you advice)

Fair enough, this is an open forum. Had you stated you want no input on your performance, none would have been given by me.

@Zero.6082 said:I was suggesting an alternative of idk checking our entitlements at the door.

No, you suggested that people play the game the you want them to play. I get to play how I want, you get to play how you want. Everyone gets to play the game how they want. The freedom to play how one wants extends all the way to another player where both need to decide they want to play together. That's how freedom works, it's not a one way street.

If you had suggested an alternative you would be living that alternative. There is enough people who play this game casually or make casual groups like the one you joined for T4 fractals. Some of them succeed, others do not. Most people realize that if they want to succeed, they are better off with certain group compositions and builds.

@Zero.6082 said:But you don’t use the meter to help educate. you use it to weed out the potential learners to find the superstars.

How do you know how I use the dps meter? I do training runs, I do regular runs, I help others out. You are assuming much given you have 0 raiding experience. That is irrelevant to the issue though.

@Zero.6082 said:Which you don’t need in a kitten video game.

No, you don't. Unless there is challenge involved and people want the loot.

@Zero.6082 said:If superstars can do it with greens maybe weaker players can do it with different build or exotics? But for you No chances no thoughts.

I have by now said dozens of times that you can run whatever build you want as long as it fullfills the groups requirements. You are literally putting words in my mouth which I never stated.

  • If you can make a damage build which performs well enough for the groups demands, no one will care.
  • If you bring the boons people are asking for, no one will care.
  • If you bring the healing people are asking for, no one will care.

@Zero.6082 said:You must have been that kid in school that didn’t let others play football with you because they weren’t part of your cool crowd. But this comment, is totally bogus I didn’t ask for dps meters and didn’t have them in 2015. And as you can see by this thread if it didn’t cause problems why are we arguing? Mr. Libertarian, explain how we all got the choice for you to watch our faults or success and decide well that isn’t good enough? I am the entitled one. It’s a video game... I am not demanding anything I don’t care about who takes me. I care that people quit because their dps is “trash” thus everyone loses because no one plays.

Yeah, I'm going to let you reflect on how you are addressing this conversation.

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

You get better by practising with groups that are meant for training or start your own group. Like everyone else did. Joining others and expecting them to train you, you show disrespect for their time and a player's time is important. You are the toxic one, and you are the one dictating how others should play, exactly what you are against

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

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@Zero.6082 said:

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

If you want to practice, go find a training group, it's easy. There are entire discords literally dedicated to this. If a group says Experienced, they want experienced people. It is simple. If you need training, find a training run. Join a training discord. Start your own group. There are many solutions to this.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

You get better by practising with groups that are meant for training or start your own group. Like everyone else did. Joining others and expecting them to train you, you show disrespect for their time and a player's time is important. You are the toxic one, and you are the one dictating how others should play, exactly what you are against

I didn’t dictate anything I asked for explanations. But you didn’t answer my question again. Insulted me as toxic.... this is getting old.... can you please answer my original question about the games mission? That was what I bought in 2015.... not dps meters.... again sorry for taking your player time... But your on a forum and I guess you got plenty of time. However, I can still address that. If you really cared about your time. 150 gold is around 10 dollars. Most minimum wage jobs are 8 an hour.... so if you work two hours of over time.... then you get 150 gold. Does 2 hours of raid = 150 gold? If we were arguing about player time.... then why don’t you just buy gold from some extra hours of work... it’s the shortest way to success.... if your time conscious. Then you could also bypass the team gates all together?

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.

Because they are literally
GOOD
at the game and those are maybe 1-2% of the whole GW2 community. If you have been in groups or squads with those players you would be able to compare them with the standard groups you're in regularly. Hint: They are miles away from what you experience every other day.Trying to explain this too you over several posts now is starting to become annoying tbh.

But you kick them before they can practice and get good. Because their dps is not good under mechanics. You want a pro with out the practice. Which is why I don’t raid. I am not pro you see that in your meter.... good bye me. But you guys don’t care about the players on the other side of the screen. You show you care about the numbers.

You know nothing, John Snow.Did I wrote anything about me kicking players out of groups? No, I didn't. And how can you be so entitled to claim I don't let players practicing and get good beforehand? You are funny, they can. Every. Fricking. Day.I'd rather have people understanding boss mechanics be it in fractals or in raids in the first place because a dead player adds nothing to the team. But, and this is important, you don't join an experienced fractal/raid group for practicing. This is why there are training groups in raids and for fractals you could start in T1 and head via T2, T3 to 4 and learn the basics from the scratch in the appropriate groups. For fractals it is even easier because you only need 5 players so that a lot of smaller guilds can create own statics where they have room for mistakes so no random player could be annoyed. I don't know how you started your video game career but I don't always try the hardest difficulty at the start. For some games where you know what to expect this could be different but the standard is you're making your way forward from the bottom to the top, step by step. And I also wrote in this thread - you must have missed that too, 2nd time now - that I'll help players almost every week on one day and we are teaching them fractal encounters for example. It's also not rare that we carry players through content although they aren't familiar with that. Those are mostly players that need specific achievements.The big problem only occurs if you join groups with requirements you can't meet. Why would you join those? They don't want to be mad, you don't want to be mad so there's a lose-lose situation. Just climb your way up - which sounds harder than it is in this particular game - and once you get your skritt together you can play with almost every group and nobody insults you, kicks you or says anything about your dps.

@Zero.6082 said:So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

Two words: Training groups (or guilds/comunities)

They are there!

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@Zero.6082 said:

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

Hint: you were the one who stated:

@Zero.6082 said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you rseponded.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.

Because they are literally
GOOD
at the game and those are maybe 1-2% of the whole GW2 community. If you have been in groups or squads with those players you would be able to compare them with the standard groups you're in regularly. Hint: They are miles away from what you experience every other day.Trying to explain this too you over several posts now is starting to become annoying tbh.

But you kick them before they can practice and get good. Because their dps is not good under mechanics. You want a pro with out the practice. Which is why I don’t raid. I am not pro you see that in your meter.... good bye me. But you guys don’t care about the players on the other side of the screen. You show you care about the numbers.

The problem with this scenario is they want a pro with the practice. If it's explicitly asked for , which it likely is in the LFG ad, and you aren't that / don't fit / perform to the level of what was asked for why are you surprised if you get removed from the group?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:@"Zero.6082"

Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

  • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator)
  • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
  • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
  • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
  • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
  • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

TL;DR:Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

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@Zero.6082 said:

Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

That was diretly relating to your comment that you ran the meta build and died due to lack of group support. I was telling you that there is no reason to die but it is better to adapt. Something which I continued while giving advice trying to work with the group you mentioned.

@Zero.6082 said:This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

  • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (
    )
  • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
  • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
  • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
  • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
  • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

Yes, because the performance was bad. Should I have lied?

Fine, I amend my comment. You did great, everything will be fine in the future. Don't practice or put any effort into improving.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:TL;DR:Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

Yes, your team setup was terrible. You were lacking two of the most essential boons (quickness and fury) which not only you could have provided, but wich would have been essential to thiefs (daredevils) who have almost no benefit from alacrity. What exactly did you want me to say? The setup was shit. You meanwhile showed a massive lack of understanding in both when to use which weapon skills, what they are good for and how to adapt to that boss, I even went into detail what is important for the boss looking it up (the daze on his third swing) providing a link.

What, did you want me to just tell you: don't worry, everything will be fine. You did great?

You didn't, you made mistakes, big ones. Period. (and so did your group, but I can only guess what and how they ran)

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

Hint: you were the one who stated:

@Zero.6082 said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

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@Zero.6082 said:

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

Hint: you were the one who stated:

@Zero.6082 said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

Now you might understand why some of us were baffled (also read Vinces comments in that context). We were literally assuming you were asking how to get help in this situation.

Fine, it was a misunderstanding, it happens. I think we have derailed the thread long enough. As far as meta builds, metabattle often has small guides when to use what, most of it comes with practice. As for people being toxic in game: block, report, move on.

EDIT: I'm going to add this here as to not make the thread longer:

@Zero.6082 said:

Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

That was diretly relating to your comment that you ran the meta build and died due to lack of group support. I was telling you that there is no reason to die but it is better to adapt. Something which I continued while giving advice trying to work with the group you mentioned.

@Zero.6082 said:This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

  • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (
    )
  • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
  • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
  • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
  • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
  • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

Yes, because the performance was bad. Should I have lied?

Fine, I amend my comment. You did great, everything will be fine in the future. Don't practice or put any effort into improving.

@Cyninja.2954 said:TL;DR:Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

Yes, your team setup was terrible. You were lacking two of the most essential boons (quickness and fury) which not only you could have provided, but wich would have been essential to thiefs (daredevils) who have almost no benefit from alacrity. What exactly did you want me to say? The setup was kitten. You meanwhile showed a massive lack of understanding in both when to use which weapon skills, what they are good for and how to adapt to that boss, I even went into detail what is important for the boss looking it up (the daze on his third swing) providing a link.

What, did you want me to just tell you: don't worry, everything will be fine. You did great?

You didn't, you made mistakes, big ones. Period. (and so did your group, but I can only guess what and how they ran)

No I didn’t I asked you a set of questions regarding your comments involving thread and meta. Which you answered man do we have to dig up the conversation. My point was hey you gave advice great. I pointed out yes but that advice wasn’t meta or dps meter caring it was skill based.... but you came back and defend the meter again.... well yeah.... I don’t know how that got translated to where we ended... but you pointed out education but then called for ridge meta and metering.... so which is it?

It's both. DPS meters are information. How people use that information is up to them. Toxic people will use it in toxic ways, others will use it to improve their and their groups performance etc. (someone posted a dps meter screenshot, I commented on it further up. It's a nice representation of how much information can be gather, and that was only from the front page).

DPS meters allow for people to come in and play their class. That was not always the case. Now people are judged on their performance, before it was due to class. (this was discussed in this thread earlier). Fact of the matter is, if someone wants to be toxic, they will be and have been in the past.

Your example and the group you gave fits this nicely on so many levels.

A. not sure if you created the group, but whoever did should have payed better attention to the class composition and that everything is covered. You yourself noticed first hand what it can mean to not have all bases covered (literally since things did not work out)B. sticking strictly to the meta build and not adapting to the groups requirements from all involved put even more pressure on the group (the druid could have switched away from longbow and provided fury with warhorn for example)C. people then got toxic after checking the dps meter (and likely only the damage done and not any of the way more relevant information like mechanics failed or boons provided)

This situation shows clearly how things can go wrong when stuff does not line up.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

That was diretly relating to your comment that you ran the meta build and died due to lack of group support. I was telling you that there is no reason to die but it is better to adapt. Something which I continued while giving advice trying to work with the group you mentioned.

@Zero.6082 said:This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

  • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (
    )
  • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
  • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
  • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
  • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
  • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

Yes, because the performance was bad. Should I have lied?

Fine, I amend my comment. You did great, everything will be fine in the future. Don't practice or put any effort into improving.

@Cyninja.2954 said:TL;DR:Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

Yes, your team setup was terrible. You were lacking two of the most essential boons (quickness and fury) which not only you could have provided, but wich would have been essential to thiefs (daredevils) who have almost no benefit from alacrity. What exactly did you want me to say? The setup was kitten. You meanwhile showed a massive lack of understanding in both when to use which weapon skills, what they are good for and how to adapt to that boss, I even went into detail what is important for the boss looking it up (the daze on his third swing) providing a link.

What, did you want me to just tell you: don't worry, everything will be fine. You did great?

You didn't, you made mistakes, big ones. Period. (and so did your group, but I can only guess what and how they ran)

No I didn’t I asked you a set of questions regarding your comments involving thread and meta. Which you answered man do we have to dig up the conversation. My point was hey you gave advice great. I pointed out yes but that advice wasn’t meta or dps meter caring it was skill based.... but you came back and defend the meter again.... well yeah.... I don’t know how that got translated to where we ended... but you pointed out education but then called for ridge meta and metering.... so which is it?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

Hint: you were the one who stated:

@Zero.6082 said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

Now you might understand why some of us were baffled (also read Vinces comments in that context). We were literally assuming you were asking how to get help in this situation.

Fine, it was a misunderstanding, it happens. I think we have derailed the thread long enough. As far as meta builds, metabattle often has small guides when to use what, most of it comes with practice. As for people being toxic in game: block, report, move on.

Oh ignore my last thread I read this after you posted again. I was grateful for the advice and that was my point which was saying hey maybe these meters and metas are wrong. I wanted to use retreat and stand your ground the meta guy said no it’s not meta. Then when I couldn’t get off an attack then he used a meter to bludgeon me to death with I am not good enough.... I then admit I got carried away... but the truth was I had no point of getting caught up in the thread. It was a recent incident that bugged me I wanted to see if others had an contributed my thoughts. Maybe get some answers. I used your response to further my point which fueled a bigger argument. No harm done I want to play the game another guardian gave me advice beat you to it.... but I just wanted to say hey guys lay-off they players who are trying to do their best and learn.... I don’t raid which maybe sad cause I potentially wanted to but... it’s threads like these where I go nope these people don’t want to help. They want their spread sheets, websites, and numbers. Good luck to you too.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

We'll the original mission statement was play how you want. That doesn't mean play together without a care on how you play. Because that would infringe on the right of people who want to people with good performance.

Their are lots of way to practice without dpsmeters being an issue.

So I'll ask again why does your right to play how you want supersede other people's right to play how they want?

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@Zero.6082 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:DPS meters are good for the game and should either stay or be replaced by ANets own group dps meter.

If you're not pulling your weight (this also includes stuff like mechanics, for which I recommand the mechanics addon for ArcDPS), you deserve to be kicked. That's got nothing to do with toxicity. If you take 2 hours break every day and chill on reddit the rest of the day at work you'd be fired as well.

I didn't realize my video game for fun was a job.... Can you give me my paycheck? You know what else a job does.... provides you with the tools to complete the task.... So are you going to buy everyone a perfect meta character? I don't think the comparison is warranted

So don't raid. If you don't want to play at a higher level nobody's forcing you to. But expecting others to carry because you're not doing your part should get you kicked and DPS meters are one of the easiest way to see that.

Or open your own raid squads with Longbow Rangers and Rifle Warriors.

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