Your DPS is Trash

[Zero.6082]

@yann.1946 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

We'll the original mission statement was play how you want. That doesn't mean play together without a care on how you play. Because that would infringe on the right of people who want to people with good performance.

Their are lots of way to practice without dpsmeters being an issue.

So I'll ask again why does your right to play how you want supersede other people's right to play how they want?

Play how you want just don’t use the tool to bludgeon people. I wanted to change my build to be what i thought was effective. I followed their commands and the got ridiculed for following meta what I am assuming most of you wanted.... so your right you want to dictate how I play and then make fun of me of how I play it..... that seems much better?

[yusayu.3629]

@Zero.6082 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

Lots of stuff that should be in the game isn't.

This game is 7 years old, you still can't save/load builds, not even in PvP.

To get better, get training groups or find a training guild.

[Zero.6082]

@yusayu.3629 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:DPS meters are good for the game and should either stay or be replaced by ANets own group dps meter.

If you're not pulling your weight (this also includes stuff like mechanics, for which I recommand the mechanics addon for ArcDPS), you deserve to be kicked. That's got nothing to do with toxicity. If you take 2 hours break every day and chill on reddit the rest of the day at work you'd be fired as well.

I didn't realize my video game for fun was a job.... Can you give me my paycheck? You know what else a job does.... provides you with the tools to complete the task.... So are you going to buy everyone a perfect meta character? I don't think the comparison is warranted

So don't raid. If you don't want to play at a higher level nobody's forcing you to. But expecting others to carry because you're not doing your part should get you kicked and DPS meters are one of the easiest way to see that.

Or open your own raid squads with Longbow Rangers and Rifle Warriors.

Hey people run necro minions in eve who am I to judge. My point was simply hey stop telling people what to do then complain when they do it. Maybe meta isn’t perfect for everything.

[Shikaru.7618]

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

Hint: you were the one who stated:

@Zero.6082 said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

Now you might understand why some of us were baffled (also read Vinces comments in that context). We were literally assuming you were asking how to get help in this situation.

Fine, it was a misunderstanding, it happens. I think we have derailed the thread long enough. As far as meta builds, metabattle often has small guides when to use what, most of it comes with practice. As for people being toxic in game: block, report, move on.

Oh ignore my last thread I read this after you posted again. I was grateful for the advice and that was my point which was saying hey maybe these meters and metas are wrong. I wanted to use retreat and stand your ground the meta guy said no it’s not meta. Then when I couldn’t get off an attack then he used a meter to bludgeon me to death with I am not good enough.... I then admit I got carried away... but the truth was I had no point of getting caught up in the thread. It was a recent incident that bugged me I wanted to see if others had an contributed my thoughts. Maybe get some answers. I used your response to further my point which fueled a bigger argument. No harm done I want to play the game another guardian gave me advice beat you to it.... but I just wanted to say hey guys lay-off they players who are trying to do their best and learn.... I don’t raid which maybe sad cause I potentially wanted to but... it’s threads like these where I go nope these people don’t want to help. They want their spread sheets, websites, and numbers. Good luck to you too.

I'm pretty sure the active posters in here aren't going into groups that very obviously labelled "training, chill, new, learning" and using the meter to bash the group. It's almost always the reverse of someone who is looking for "training, chill, new, learning" that joins a 100 kill proof group, gets called out and then comes here to complain about DPS meters. Not saying you're one of these players. Also fyi, arc dps and parsing tools associated with arc show data like number of attacks evaded, blocked, number of times you hit F on your teammates, number of times you got chosen for mechanics, number of boss attacks you got hit with, your skill usage, your positioning during a boss fight and so much more. There's all of this contextual information that people complaining about meters don't seem to know about because they don't use the tool themselves and then complain that they're being judged by "just" a number. As someone who is learning, all of this contextual information is the stuff you should be craving not fearing. How far out of position was I? How many times did I get hit by that aoe? Arcdps tells you all of this.

[Zero.6082]

I think I need to clarify my post because we are way far away from the original so let me summarize. I was in a not meta group. Dragon hunter. With mostly meta build. I wanted to use stand your ground and retreat on the boss on 88 fractal. They told me no it’s useless.... so we failed a couple of times disbanded. I got a whisper, my meter says you suck and didn’t do enough dps..... bare in mind I spent a lot of time knocked around, and stunned. Read the fractal info for why it’s possible. I basically said hey this person told me to follow meta and then bludgeon me using a dps meter for doing what they wanted. So I proposed hey maybe meta isn’t right all the time and we shouldn’t bully people with a meter which I don’t have. So i say I followed everyone’s rules here and got burned...them got caught up in other defenses and posts. But my main point was I tired doing it your all’s way... why couldn’t you hear me out.

[Shikaru.7618]

@Zero.6082 said:I think I need to clarify my post because we are way far away from the original so let me summarize. I was in a not meta group. Dragon hunter. With mostly meta build. I wanted to use stand your ground and retreat on the boss on 88 fractal. They told me no it’s useless.... so we failed a couple of times disbanded. I got a whisper, my meter says you suck and didn’t do enough dps..... bare in mind I spent a lot of time knocked around, and stunned. Read the fractal info for why it’s possible. I basically said hey this person told me to follow meta and then bludgeon me using a dps meter for doing what they wanted. So I proposed hey maybe meta isn’t right all the time and we shouldn’t bully people with a meter which I don’t have. So i say I followed everyone’s rules here and got burned...them got caught up in other defenses and posts. But my main point was I tired doing it your all’s way... why couldn’t you hear me out.

Again consult the meter for more context. If they're saying you specifically had low dps then the natural question is, well compared to who? did the other dps slots in my party have higher dps? How were they able to avoid getting CCed? maybe they were doing something differently than I. After consulting the combat log, you either come to 2 different conclusions.

1. The dude had no idea what he was talking about because everyone's dps was equally low across the board and I should have stuck to my guns and brought party support boons.
2. I learn something new about class options or how to approach the boss in the absence of meta supports providing boons. I think your example cited 2 daredevils which hypothetically would do better in a supportless setting because of their abundant dodges and the ability to maintain rotations while dodging.

[Zero.6082]

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

Hint: you were the one who stated:

@Zero.6082 said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

Now you might understand why some of us were baffled (also read Vinces comments in that context). We were literally assuming you were asking how to get help in this situation.

Fine, it was a misunderstanding, it happens. I think we have derailed the thread long enough. As far as meta builds, metabattle often has small guides when to use what, most of it comes with practice. As for people being toxic in game: block, report, move on.

Oh ignore my last thread I read this after you posted again. I was grateful for the advice and that was my point which was saying hey maybe these meters and metas are wrong. I wanted to use retreat and stand your ground the meta guy said no it’s not meta. Then when I couldn’t get off an attack then he used a meter to bludgeon me to death with I am not good enough.... I then admit I got carried away... but the truth was I had no point of getting caught up in the thread. It was a recent incident that bugged me I wanted to see if others had an contributed my thoughts. Maybe get some answers. I used your response to further my point which fueled a bigger argument. No harm done I want to play the game another guardian gave me advice beat you to it.... but I just wanted to say hey guys lay-off they players who are trying to do their best and learn.... I don’t raid which maybe sad cause I potentially wanted to but... it’s threads like these where I go nope these people don’t want to help. They want their spread sheets, websites, and numbers. Good luck to you too.

I'm pretty sure the active posters in here aren't going into groups that very obviously labelled "training, chill, new, learning" and using the meter to bash the group. It's almost always the reverse of someone who is looking for "training, chill, new, learning" that joins a 100 kill proof group, gets called out and then comes here to complain about DPS meters. Not saying you're one of these players. Also fyi, arc dps and parsing tools associated with arc show data like number of attacks evaded, blocked, number of times you hit F on your teammates, number of times you got chosen for mechanics, number of boss attacks you got hit with, your skill usage, your positioning during a boss fight and so much more. There's all of this contextual information that people complaining about meters don't seem to know about because they don't use the tool themselves and then complain that they're being judged by "just" a number. As someone who is learning, all of this contextual information is the stuff you should be craving not fearing. How far out of position was I? How many times did I get hit by that aoe? Arcdps tells you all of this.

This is a very insight full post and I appreciate the information. I am mostly going for information. The issue I take is not the tool but the people who bully with the tool. I had taco great tool but my computer crashed and I don’t know why... so wary of programs. So I guess I have to take your word for it. But my question is I changed my bios for fractal. It’s more my style less intense and reliant on dodging. I do 26 k dps instead of 31 k like the website meta says.... am I in the wrong?

[Zero.6082]

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Zero.6082 said:I think I need to clarify my post because we are way far away from the original so let me summarize. I was in a not meta group. Dragon hunter. With mostly meta build. I wanted to use stand your ground and retreat on the boss on 88 fractal. They told me no it’s useless.... so we failed a couple of times disbanded. I got a whisper, my meter says you suck and didn’t do enough dps..... bare in mind I spent a lot of time knocked around, and stunned. Read the fractal info for why it’s possible. I basically said hey this person told me to follow meta and then bludgeon me using a dps meter for doing what they wanted. So I proposed hey maybe meta isn’t right all the time and we shouldn’t bully people with a meter which I don’t have. So i say I followed everyone’s rules here and got burned...them got caught up in other defenses and posts. But my main point was I tired doing it your all’s way... why couldn’t you hear me out.

Again consult the meter for more context. If they're saying you specifically had low dps then the natural question is, well compared to who? did the other dps slots in my party have higher dps? How were they able to avoid getting CCed? maybe they were doing something differently than I. After consulting the combat log, you either come to 2 different conclusions.

1. The dude had no idea what he was talking about because everyone's dps was equally low across the board and I should have stuck to my guns and brought party support boons.
2. I learn something new about class options or how to approach the boss in the absence of meta supports providing boons. I think your example cited 2 daredevils which hypothetically would do better in a supportless setting because of their abundant dodges and the ability to maintain rotations while dodging.

Your basically answering everything I questioned. Where were you yesterday. You could have saved me a whole day of posting.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Zero.6082 said:I do 26 k dps instead of 31 k like the website meta says.... am I in the wrong?

Hypothetically those numbers would be totally fine in 90% of all raiding groups and probably more in all fractal groups.We pointed out earlier: It's not the people that don't do nearly as much as the dps benchmark - can differ from 65%-90+% depending on the demands of the group. Really, no pug group compares your dps with the actual possible numbers. In most cases you see numbers that are good for beating the encounters in a comfortable way and time. It's the extremes who draw attention. And on the negative site it's the people who join experienced runs and do around 20% of the actual benchmark which is literally autoattacking (skill 1) while playing a meta gear dps class. If you fill a dps spot and come along with such numbers you should have either practiced more on the golem or played a support class instead and would have helped much more, that's all.

In your example with the renegade, 2 daredevils and the druid you haven't had a very good team composition and bad circumstances (bow druid, player without enough AR etc.). Maybe you were to blame for some things, maybe not. We can't tell we weren't there. But I doubt that you had a bigger negative impact in this group than the druid and the renegade. So, it's possible that the one who whispered you didn't realize the issues and just blamed you because of your numbers. That's not very farseeing but happens from time to time - it's not the standard. On the other hand if those daredevils performed well they would have carried the group because even a non-optimized group is able to handle the final boss. For me it seems that you all were decent players but nobody with superior knowledge or experience in this fractal. This can happen and is not a drama. The next run you will slip through and ask yourself what was that the other day? With experience you'll be able to notice who isn't performing as he should. You will then be in the spot to either help or maybe leave the group because you just wanted to have a decent to smooth daily run.

[yann.1946]

@Zero.6082 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

We'll the original mission statement was play how you want. That doesn't mean play together without a care on how you play. Because that would infringe on the right of people who want to people with good performance.

Their are lots of way to practice without dpsmeters being an issue.

So I'll ask again why does your right to play how you want supersede other people's right to play how they want?

Play how you want just don’t use the tool to bludgeon people. I wanted to change my build to be what i thought was effective. I followed their commands and the got ridiculed for following meta what I am assuming most of you wanted.... so your right you want to dictate how I play and then make fun of me of how I play it..... that seems much better?

I agree that tools shouldn't be used to berate people, but ask ourself this. Do the berating people go away when you remove the tool?For a second point, I really don't care at all what you play. But in group content the group decides how everyone plays. They do this based on what therequirements in lfg are. Or guild requirements posts etc.

[Zero.6082]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Zero.6082 said:I do 26 k dps instead of 31 k like the website meta says.... am I in the wrong?

Hypothetically those numbers would be totally fine in 90% of all raiding groups and probably more in all fractal groups.We pointed out earlier: It's not the people that don't do nearly as much as the dps benchmark - can differ from 65%-90+% depending on the demands of the group. Really, no pug group compares your dps with the actual possible numbers. In most cases you see numbers that are good for beating the encounters in a comfortable way and time. It's the extremes who draw attention. And on the negative site it's the people who join experienced runs and do around 20% of the actual benchmark which is literally autoattacking (skill 1) while playing a meta gear dps class. If you fill a dps spot and come along with such numbers you should have either practiced more on the golem or played a support class instead and would have helped much more, that's all.

In your example with the renegade, 2 daredevils and the druid you haven't had a very good team composition and bad circumstances (bow druid, player without enough AR etc.). Maybe you were to blame for some things, maybe not. We can't tell we weren't there. But I doubt that you had a bigger negative impact in this group than the druid and the renegade. So, it's possible that the one who whispered you didn't realize the issues and just blamed you because of your numbers. That's not very farseeing but happens from time to time - it's not the standard. On the other hand if those daredevils performed well they would have carried the group because even a non-optimized group is able to handle the final boss. For me it seems that you all were decent players but nobody with superior knowledge or experience in this fractal. This can happen and is not a drama. The next run you will slip through and ask yourself what was that the other day? With experience you'll be able to notice who isn't performing as he should. You will then be in the spot to either help or maybe leave the group because you just wanted to have a decent to smooth daily run.

Cool I am out of questions that was pretty much everything. This maybe a stretch, but now it feels like I have to download a Dps meter to keep people honest and not for game play assistance. It sounds like it has a couple of interesting functions that can help people play better. However, the way I am gathering.

1. Idk who else has one and i can’t prove it. So now I have to make sure I have one, so I can prove right or wrong.
2. Kind of feels like I am at a big disadvantage in defending myself.

I am very much surprised and exceptionally pleased that most people are not holding me to perfect rotation numbers . In contrast though it still seems I have to download an outside program to have data to keep people honest. Which is problematic because in the long run even if I have the meter and I am in the right. Would that stop anyone from still accusing. I mean how much time is wasted grabbing that data and then sending it to everyone in the group to defend your play? Also if it was as import as the group claims, I don’t understand why it isn’t part of the game. It seems like we’re asking everyone, hey I know you bought this complicated game, but before you play...... please download this outside program not supplied by the makers.... and oh by the way it still doesn’t guarantee that people still can’t lie or set you up. So even if you point fingers the right way.... in my case it might be the daredevil can accuse the guardian of being bad because they picked the proper build for the team because they know they don’t need a special set up and then can use their higher number to call out the person for being thrown all over the place....because they have 3 dodges..... that do damage.... with traits that give them endurance recharge and they tell you don’t use your utilities ... kitten golems.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zero.6082 said:In contrast though it still seems I have to download an outside program to have data to keep people honest.

If a majority of players spent just a little time on the damage golem and practiced their rotations (or even made sure they understood their class) this would not be an issue.

That said, no you are not forced to use a damage meter. Some practice on the golem is fine. A damage meter would obviously help you personally to identify and see your performance.

Since a vast majority of players don't practice and are clueless as to their class combined with the insane difference in performance between bad and good players, there is a huge rift. It is not uncommon for player who go to the damage golem without any outside help or resources to not break 3-4k damage per second. Given almost every class can break 30k dps, that should put this disparity in perspective.

@Zero.6082 said:Which is problematic because in the long run even if I have the meter and I am in the right. Would that stop anyone from still accusing.

People who want to be toxic, will be toxic. No tool is going to protect you from that. It's also not what the tool is there for. If you are forced into arguing with other people about performance, you might as well leave the group since it's rarely an individuals fault. Most often it's a combination of factors usually stemming from multiple players not being as experienced as they'd like to believe they are and since it's always easier to blame others... you get my drift.

@Zero.6082 said:I mean how much time is wasted grabbing that data and then sending it to everyone in the group to defend your play? Also if it was as import as the group claims, I don’t understand why it isn’t part of the game. It seems like we’re asking everyone, hey I know you bought this complicated game, but before you play...... please download this outside program not supplied by the makers.... and oh by the way it still doesn’t guarantee that people still can’t lie or set you up.

Because it's not that important to the game. For 90% of this games content, it's not needed. The only place where a damage meter is useful (again, not needed but useful) is challenging endgame pve content. The amount of that content present and the fraction of the player base playing this content is way smaller than the total games population.

As far as this games challenging content versus regular say open world content: it's easiest to think of both as 2 separate games which look alike, because they are.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

But you kick on the subjective not the objective.Yes. It has nothing to do with meters, though. People were kicking others for low dps before meters were a thing - in fact, their reasons for kicking were even

more

subjective (group has low dps? Let's kick the only non-tempest dps in the group. Did that person actually did less damage than all of the tempests? We have no idea, but we still need to kick

someone

, so not playing the class known as the best theoretical dps at the moment is good enough a reason for kick).That's for the kicks after the group failed to kill the boss (usually when the group leader saw the group wasn't even close to success - if it was close it's generally faster to just make a second try instead). The kicks before the fight even started are for the most part very objective though - the group asked for certain class/build in LFG, and they got something that didn't fulfill their criteria.The criteria doesn't have to be reasonable (they may be trying for all ranger party boss kill, for example), but it's something the leader asked for so it should be respected.Don't like it? Make your own squad wih your own LFG requirements. Nothing's stopping you from doing it.

@Zero.6082 said:But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

This information was already given to you:Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...You're really grasping at straws. gw2raidar is good enough - it shows you what damage people usually do with the same class at the same boss. If you (and only you) do damage that is significantly lower than what's expected, then you have a problem. Work on it, instead of assuming it's a result of some circumstances outside your ability to control, and demanding others should not notice it.

Second I don’t have to adhere to you social structure because I want to. You force me to.You are completely free to create your own static. It's just that grouped with players with the same approach you will be far less likely to succeed.

This

is what causes people to come to this forum complaining, not the meters. If you want to complaing against something, then complain against the difficulty level that is so high that it requires from you skill beyond your ability.

You just said it in the statement conform or get out... what do I conform to.

Content requirements. Group expectations.

You are not my authority nor do you pay me. So why should I conform.Because if you won't conform, most people will consider you a liability - a dead weight. And they have no obligation to work harder so someone else can get carried. Nor do they have any obligation to group with you if they don't want to.Notice, that it works both ways - if someone wants a chill dungeon run with no skipping, and someone is trying to skip everything and rages because others won't follow, it's perfectly okay to kick that person too, even if they're the best dps around. They didn't fulfill group requirements.

Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed.Oh, it is very much about completing and winning. If it was just about speed, most people would not really care that much.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Zero.6082" said:If your so flexible can I bring a healer firebrand instead of a Druid? No because it doesn’t adhere to a websites demand.Does your firebrand upkeep 25 stacks of strenth for the whole party? If yes, go ahead.Hint: it's not as flexible, because it is a group, not a gathering of 10 separate individuals. So, it needs group synergy.

That is nonsense. Go again. GW2raidar has top performing builds for each boss and shows everything from top 1% percentile to 50th percentile.

The people who submit are pros I have to adhere to Lebrun James skill to play basket ball with you? Woah bro calm down.On, not all are pros. My logs are somewhere there as well.Yes, for the most part those are logs from succesful attempts. And that's exactly what you want to compare yourself with - succesful runs. Not failures.

To join your group, I am a pug there is no sign that says if you don’t do what I want I kick you.If you are a liability to the group, you will get kicked. So, try to not be a liability. Is it that hard to understand? Besides, nobody forces you to join that group. You may look for a less restrictive one. Or make one yourself.Just as you're not forced to play with a group of obviously inferior players that do nothing but expect you to carry them.

Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed.

My argument is for success. Speed can be a biproduct of success. Open world content nearly always succeed, as such it makes no difference what people run. Last time I chedk, raids and high level fractals are not guaranteed success.

You do what is necessary to fullfill the role you have taken on. You can come up with your own build and as long as it performs satisfactory you will have no issue and no one will be able to tell. Most people are not willing to invest this much time and simply copy other people's work which causes other issues (like lack of understanding).

No I am not free to play with whoever because you just said I can’t play with you if I don’t do what you want.And what the leader wants is for you to fulfill your role well. You can't do that? Why would they want to keep you in the group for, then?

You also don’t care what succeeds. Because a firebrand healer isn’t a Druid.Again, as long as you going with firebrand instead of druid will not cause one of your duties to go unfulfilled, all is fine.Hint: Druid's not taken just for healing, or even primarily for healing. It's a support slot that fulfills several functions at the same time. It's not easy to replace - not without changing the roles of several other players.If you are a second healer in the squad however, it's quite possible you will be able to go healbrand, or Ventari, or heal scourge, or tempest healer.

It may succeedYes, but the chances for it succeeding go down. Good players can still make that work, but they will have to work harder. That of course means things like dps requirements will become more strict, by the way.

If I delete the websites and the meters? How do you know what your comp looks like?How do you think it worked before meters were a thing? By experience and word of mouth. And of course, since noone could easily check effectiveness of new builds and strats, they were far

less

prone to modifications than now. And far more prone to arbitrary kicking.

You can’t, forcing players to follow an authority that is subjective, do you expect everyone to conform?No. It's just that most of the noncomforming people will

keep failing the content

. That's what make people adapt to existing strategies - they work.

Is there no other way to win then to meter dps and use your meta?Yes, there is, it just requires a lot more effort, and makes the content access more restrictive.

Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.We did. They did it by being better than 99% of the community. Including most of the raiders. Basically, they could do their job even in greens.

Thus defeating your dps meter and realizing the game is about good old fashion work, and practice.... not a specific set number.You do realize those "people in greens" had dps that was most likely far better than yours, right? So, if they could do it in greens, why can't you do it in ascended?

[maddoctor.2738]

@Zero.6082 said:I didn’t dictate anything

You dictate how others should play by asking them to take you into their groups. You are being toxic, inconsiderate, rude and disrespectful by trying to put your desires and needs above anyone else's. This selfish behavior of yours is the exact reason why dps meters should stay as a tool to identify toxic players that fit your description.

[zealex.9410]

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

If the team is looking for a quarterback with x credentials they should keep you even if you arent even playing quarterback or have said credentials?

[Tiviana.2650]

@Edge.8724 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Edge.8724 said:Seeing informations of others shouldn't be allowed. But meh, who am I to say it anyway. Apparently it's 100% allowed so...

Very selfish mentality in my opinion. This isn't personal information we are talking here, it is your contribution to the group. DPS does matter a lot and it is not unreasonable to expect others to pull their weight in a group. There's is a difference between being 'toxic' and expecting someone in a certain setting (such as a T4 fractal or a raid advertised as EXP) to be able to pull something even close to the benchmark of the class they are playing.

Benchmarks are created by the community, not ArenaNet. I'm not sure why I should abide to those "maximum performance numbers".

Also, this seems to only be made for max speed clear up. You should judge someone by their knowledge and skills of their class instead of said numbers.

The goal of a raid and fractal is to clear it, right? Why are the community so focused on monitoring people to see if they are pulling the maximum number an "elite" guild has determined an individual must do?

Sorry, I still disagree with the mentality of of seeing DPS of others especially since raids and fractals are mechanics-dependant.

Well it kinda is created by anet, bosses have a percentage you need to get to phase them or kill them before an enrage. It is a numbers game, they arent infinite pinatas you can wail on for an hour and whittle them down. The numbers are set by the game. In order to win you either have to help beat those numbers or have a group willing to carry you. I training raid ,my dps is trash most of the time but because my guild isnt hard kittens about it im allowed to raid with them. My advice is find a good guild and network with them. When i started my dps on carin was abysmal like 2300, i can now hit a lot better but still not top dps for my class, but im learning the mechanics and not dying like i used to. A lot of our group is missing for summer, but when we have our group we can clear out wings 4 and 1 in 2 hours. A guild team makes all the difference for people that arent top raiders, they can help you.

I think meters are a good tool, but like anything its how they are used. People that are toxic are going to be toxic meter or not. And you have to also be willing to use the tool to improve yourself.

[Zero.6082]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zero.6082 said:I didn’t dictate anything

You dictate how others should play by asking them to take you into their groups. You are being toxic, inconsiderate, rude and disrespectful by trying to put your desires and needs above anyone else's. This selfish behavior of yours is the exact reason why dps meters should stay as a tool to identify toxic players that fit your description.

This is my point you have now linked the dps meter as the ability identify toxic players..... please identify the leap here this my problem with your answers. Another person way higher in the thread already answered my question and I conceded on his point for dps meters. Can you stop blaming, name calling and categorizing players. You are the example of why I don’t like the meter. You have now claimed it can do more then what it does. Maybe the player can’t afford the gear... maybe the player is practicing and doesn’t fully grasp... maybe they can do it perfect with a golem ( such as myself) and have a harder time when extra mechanics are thrown in. I am sorry we can’t all be pros.... but you sir just keep proving my point time and time again: the meter is toxic if you don’t understand it’s true purpose....that’s like saying everyone who doesn’t play your way is toxic.....now who is being inconsiderate, rude and disrespectful. When you are forcing an ideology that the meter is can do more then what was intended and then calling people names who don’t agree....

[Zero.6082]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

If the team is looking for a quarterback with x credentials they should keep you even if you arent even playing quarterback or have said credentials?

I wouldn’t say so in a recreational sport for fun. My sister plays in a work football league...she never played football professionally in her life and she asked to be quarterback..... they said sure and she does ok.... but that is the point .... it’s a game not a profession.... I expect nothing less from Payton Manning who gets paid.... but a for fun game.... I really feel bad if you are all expecting pro level with compensation..... which is why I don’t raid... I don’t have time to be professional for you for free...but now we all have to assume that the only way to raid is at the professional level. Is that really true? And if so I am glad you all found a hobby but it’s a hobby.

[Zero.6082]

@Tiviana.2650 said:

@Edge.8724 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Edge.8724 said:Seeing informations of others shouldn't be allowed. But meh, who am I to say it anyway. Apparently it's 100% allowed so...

Very selfish mentality in my opinion. This isn't personal information we are talking here, it is your contribution to the group. DPS does matter a lot and it is not unreasonable to expect others to pull their weight in a group. There's is a difference between being 'toxic' and expecting someone in a certain setting (such as a T4 fractal or a raid advertised as EXP) to be able to pull something even close to the benchmark of the class they are playing.

Benchmarks are created by the community, not ArenaNet. I'm not sure why I should abide to those "maximum performance numbers".

Also, this seems to only be made for max speed clear up. You should judge someone by their knowledge and skills of their class instead of said numbers.

The goal of a raid and fractal is to clear it, right? Why are the community so focused on monitoring people to see if they are pulling the maximum number an "elite" guild has determined an individual must do?

Sorry, I still disagree with the mentality of of seeing DPS of others especially since raids and fractals are mechanics-dependant.

Well it kinda is created by anet, bosses have a percentage you need to get to phase them or kill them before an enrage. It is a numbers game, they arent infinite pinatas you can wail on for an hour and whittle them down. The numbers are set by the game. In order to win you either have to help beat those numbers or have a group willing to carry you. I training raid ,my dps is trash most of the time but because my guild isnt hard kittens about it im allowed to raid with them. My advice is find a good guild and network with them. When i started my dps on carin was abysmal like 2300, i can now hit a lot better but still not top dps for my class, but im learning the mechanics and not dying like i used to. A lot of our group is missing for summer, but when we have our group we can clear out wings 4 and 1 in 2 hours. A guild team makes all the difference for people that arent top raiders, they can help you.

I think meters are a good tool, but like anything its how they are used. People that are toxic are going to be toxic meter or not. And you have to also be willing to use the tool to improve yourself.

It’s a well stated thought and I have no arguments with it. I like your concise point with it’s not the meter but the people. It is a good thing to remember. I am disappointed that the game is reduced to specific rotations and no creativity to win.... but I can’t decide if it is the meters that did it or th players who used them to write the websites....I just think it would be nice to think my open world mmo was a little more open. But I get you perfection is key for clearing content and repetition is boring. But I guess I don’t know the aim.... because it doesn’t feel like I did it.... it feels like a website instruction manual did it.i get using build or referencing for help...only so many combinations.... it’s the press these buttons in specific order gets you this meter result that just maybe rubs me the wrong way.... and that last part is definitely an opinion.

[Zero.6082]

@Zero.6082 said:

@Tiviana.2650 said:

@Edge.8724 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Edge.8724 said:Seeing informations of others shouldn't be allowed. But meh, who am I to say it anyway. Apparently it's 100% allowed so...

Very selfish mentality in my opinion. This isn't personal information we are talking here, it is your contribution to the group. DPS does matter a lot and it is not unreasonable to expect others to pull their weight in a group. There's is a difference between being 'toxic' and expecting someone in a certain setting (such as a T4 fractal or a raid advertised as EXP) to be able to pull something even close to the benchmark of the class they are playing.

Benchmarks are created by the community, not ArenaNet. I'm not sure why I should abide to those "maximum performance numbers".

Also, this seems to only be made for max speed clear up. You should judge someone by their knowledge and skills of their class instead of said numbers.

The goal of a raid and fractal is to clear it, right? Why are the community so focused on monitoring people to see if they are pulling the maximum number an "elite" guild has determined an individual must do?

Sorry, I still disagree with the mentality of of seeing DPS of others especially since raids and fractals are mechanics-dependant.

Well it kinda is created by anet, bosses have a percentage you need to get to phase them or kill them before an enrage. It is a numbers game, they arent infinite pinatas you can wail on for an hour and whittle them down. The numbers are set by the game. In order to win you either have to help beat those numbers or have a group willing to carry you. I training raid ,my dps is trash most of the time but because my guild isnt hard kittens about it im allowed to raid with them. My advice is find a good guild and network with them. When i started my dps on carin was abysmal like 2300, i can now hit a lot better but still not top dps for my class, but im learning the mechanics and not dying like i used to. A lot of our group is missing for summer, but when we have our group we can clear out wings 4 and 1 in 2 hours. A guild team makes all the difference for people that arent top raiders, they can help you.

I think meters are a good tool, but like anything its how they are used. People that are toxic are going to be toxic meter or not. And you have to also be willing to use the tool to improve yourself.

It’s a well stated thought and I have no arguments with it. I like your concise point with it’s not the meter but the people. It is a good thing to remember. I am disappointed that the game is reduced to specific rotations and no creativity to win.... but I can’t decide if it is the meters that did it or th players who used them to write the websites....I just think it would be nice to think my open world mmo was a little more open. But I get you perfection is key for clearing content and repetition is boring. But I guess I don’t know the aim.... because it doesn’t feel like I did it.... it feels like a website instruction manual did it.i get using build or referencing for help...only so many combinations.... it’s the press these buttons in specific order gets you this meter result that just maybe rubs me the wrong way.... and that last part is definitely an opinion.

That last statement is my opinion... the rotation is not... I need to clarify before someone jumps on that and says no it’s calculated... I get that part.

[Zero.6082]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zero.6082 said:In contrast though it still seems I have to download an outside program to have data to keep people honest.

If a majority of players spent just a little time on the damage golem and practiced their rotations (or even made sure they understood their class) this would not be an issue.

That said, no you are not forced to use a damage meter. Some practice on the golem is fine. A damage meter would obviously help you personally to identify and see your performance.

Since a vast majority of players don't practice and are clueless as to their class combined with the insane difference in performance between bad and good players, there is a huge rift. It is not uncommon for player who go to the damage golem without any outside help or resources to not break 3-4k damage per second. Given almost every class can break 30k dps, that should put this disparity in perspective.

@Zero.6082 said:Which is problematic because in the long run even if I have the meter and I am in the right. Would that stop anyone from still accusing.

People who want to be toxic, will be toxic. No tool is going to protect you from that. It's also not what the tool is there for. If you are forced into arguing with other people about performance, you might as well leave the group since it's rarely an individuals fault. Most often it's a combination of factors usually stemming from multiple players not being as experienced as they'd like to believe they are and since it's always easier to blame others... you get my drift.

@Zero.6082 said:I mean how much time is wasted grabbing that data and then sending it to everyone in the group to defend your play? Also if it was as import as the group claims, I don’t understand why it isn’t part of the game. It seems like we’re asking everyone, hey I know you bought this complicated game, but before you play...... please download this outside program not supplied by the makers.... and oh by the way it still doesn’t guarantee that people still can’t lie or set you up.

Because it's not that important to the game. For 90% of this games content, it's not needed. The only place where a damage meter is useful (again, not needed but useful) is challenging endgame pve content. The amount of that content present and the fraction of the player base playing this content is way smaller than the total games population.

As far as this games challenging content versus regular say open world content: it's easiest to think of both as 2 separate games which look alike, because they are.

That seems like a fair trade off if you think of it as two separate games....and I can agree.... it’s just disappointing when it shows up once in a blue moon and I go oh yeah I am not playing a game.... I am working a profession.... cause I got to please this guy or girl.... so much fun...jumping into pug groups there is no written contract so it just makes it tough.... we fighting the mobs ... we running past the mobs... it changes with every group... I thought it is more dynamic to work together and get to know some one.... now it’s show up do your role, meet the number .... ok now go away....

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Zero.6082" said:I am sorry we can’t all be pros....

Then don't join the groups that ask for those, why is that so hard to understand? Why are you trying to force your ideology that players should play with you, or others like you? And those that don't want to you call them toxic? Who is name calling and blaming? Look at the mirror. If you aren't a "pro", go join others who aren't "pro", you can join the "pro" when you are also a "pro". It's not very hard to understand isn't it?

[rabenpriester.7129]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Zero.6082" said:I am sorry we can’t all be pros....

Then don't join the groups that ask for those, why is that so hard to understand? Why are you trying to force your ideology that players should play with you, or others like you? And those that don't want to you call them toxic? Who is name calling and blaming? Look at the mirror. If you aren't a "pro", go join others who aren't "pro", you can join the "pro" when you are also a "pro". It's not very hard to understand isn't it?

But then he can never complete the extremely difficult encounters in gw2 raiding :D :D :D

Every boss is challenge mode if you're the one that is challenged. Just look at his posts. Easy to get the picture.

[Zero.6082]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Zero.6082" said:I am sorry we can’t all be pros....

Then don't join the groups that ask for those, why is that so hard to understand? Why are you trying to force your ideology that players should play with you, or others like you? And those that don't want to you call them toxic? Who is name calling and blaming? Look at the mirror. If you aren't a "pro", go join others who aren't "pro", you can join the "pro" when you are also a "pro". It's not very hard to understand isn't it?

Dodging the question again and taking me out of context..... it’s really getting aggravating.... I am trying to be nice..... but I’ll try again. You took the leap and said you can deduce toxic players using a dps meter. A dps meter can detect dps.... but it has no direct connection to toxicity.... thus, we can only conclude that the only way you can come to that conclusion is through an ideology.... that the meter has extra damaging context.... now I don’t understand how being a pro is a negative term.... but ok... I apologize your not a pro... but if not a pro.... what would you like? Cause I can use an antonym if you like? Which may make sense cause I can guess a pro knows how the meter works...and they would admit it is impossible to determine player intent. If you don’t make your dps number does that make you toxic.... so I say this again for all to see. This is the example why I don’t like the meter.... he has claimed people are automatically toxic by using the meter as weapon to measure people. There could be many factors why people may not make their number.... and they could be great people who are trying their best..... maybe at the most misguided....but you sir have said no they are toxic automatically and used your meter as your authority to ridicule... that I don’t stand for. And I promise the only name calling I have used is pro I guarantee if I ever respond again ... I won’t make that mistake again, since it seemed to upset you.