Why do impairing daggers have a cast time?

[kokonut.7683]

The problem I have with this is that I have to face the target to cast it, else it goes on a 5second cooldown.. impairing daggers should be an insta cast projectile similar to how an engineer can throw grenades behind while still walking forward. It's bad enough that it has a slow projectile speed but why a cast time? What's the design logic behind this?

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Its Anet. When it comes to thief balancing, anything that hinders the class performance is fine in their book

[DemonSeed.3528]

I'm thinking the impairing part is self inflicted and not for the target XD

[kokonut.7683]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Its Anet. When it comes to thief balancing, anything that hinders the class performance is fine in their book

Do anet staff read their forums? I just wanna understand the thought process behind that.. If they've played the class on a basic level they'd know that it doesn't fit with the rest of the kit.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I'm thinking the impairing part is self inflicted and not for the target XD

Yeah, it really feels that way :D

[LONGA.1652]

Its a pretty good CC if it landed. But in reality it rarely work in PVP. People can just side step and it will tell that its obstructed by what ever reason . Same as Scorpion wire

[kokonut.7683]

@LONGA.1652 said:Its a pretty good CC if it landed. But in reality it rarely work in PVP. People can just side step and it will tell that its obstructed by what ever reason . Same as Scorpion wire

True, that has something to do with the slow travel speed. But not being able to throw it if you're not in a perfect 90 with the target is just absurd.

[Straegen.2938]

Oddly Lotus Training does not suffer from these issues. It should work the same way mechanically.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

If it was instant cast, you'd be able to cast it while stunned. Mesmer currently has the copyright on that kind of BS.

[kokonut.7683]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If it was instant cast, you'd be able to cast it while stunned. Mesmer currently has the copyright on that kind of BS.

No I meant omnidirectional casting similar to how an engineer can throw grenades/mortar shells behind while still walking forward. Even warrior rifle/ dh longbow puts you in the direction of the target..even that works out. The long cast time doesn't allow this and it's super weird if you're on sword, porting around and you realize you have to stop, turn and face the enemy to cast impairing daggers..it just doesn't work with the kit.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@nxsage.6578 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If it was instant cast, you'd be able to cast it while stunned. Mesmer currently has the copyright on that kind of BS.

No I meant omnidirectional casting similar to how an engineer can throw grenades/mortar shells behind while still walking forward. Even warrior rifle/ dh longbow puts you in the direction of the target..even that works out. The long cast time doesn't allow this and it's super weird if you're on sword, porting around and you realize you have to stop, turn and face the enemy to cast impairing daggers..it just doesn't work with the kit.

Ah, I'm with you. If you release the right mouse button, does it swivel if you try casting on something behind you or does it just fail? I know headshot will fail in that scenario if you're holding the right mouse button but it will swivel if you don't, hence why I ask.

It could do with the cast time being reduced to at least the same as headshot imo, to make it easier to time for key skills rather than spamming in the hope of landing an attack that hasn't been cast yet. It does need a cast time tho, as otherwise you end up with a skill that isn't a stunbreak that can be cast while stunned, which has basically no counterplay and there are already too many of those type of skills imo.

[kokonut.7683]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Ah, I'm with you. If you release the right mouse button, does it swivel if you try casting on something behind you or does it just fail? I know headshot will fail in that scenario if you're holding the right mouse button but it will swivel if you don't, hence why I ask.

It fails, putting the skill on a 5s cooldown. You have to be facing the target in an almost perfect 90 for it to land.

It could do with the cast time being reduced to at least the same as headshot imo, to make it easier to time for key skills rather than spamming in the hope of landing an attack that hasn't been cast yet. It does need a cast time tho, as otherwise you end up with a skill that isn't a stunbreak that can be cast while stunned, which has basically no counterplay and there are already too many of those type of skills imo.

Thats a fair point, since players can also throw this at point blank range to counter the slow projectile speed.. its good that it has a bit of a same cast time. However the skill shouldn't rely on the direction you're facing, it's unusable as it is wayy too predictable.Anyway I'm pretty sure this won't get fixed because it's condi and nobody plays enough condi to understand that the skill needs some work. As much as I'd love to see a fix, I doubt we'd get anything anytime soon.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@nxsage.6578 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Ah, I'm with you. If you release the right mouse button, does it swivel if you try casting on something behind you or does it just fail? I know headshot will fail in that scenario if you're holding the right mouse button but it will swivel if you don't, hence why I ask.

It fails, putting the skill on a 5s cooldown. You have to be facing the target in an almost perfect 90 for it to land.

It could do with the cast time being reduced to at least the same as headshot imo, to make it easier to time for key skills rather than spamming in the hope of landing an attack that hasn't been cast yet. It does need a cast time tho, as otherwise you end up with a skill that isn't a stunbreak that can be cast while stunned, which has basically no counterplay and there are already too many of those type of skills imo.

Thats a fair point, since players can also throw this at point blank range to counter the slow projectile speed.. its good that it has a bit of a same cast time. However the skill shouldn't rely on the direction you're facing, it's unusable as it is wayy too predictable.Anyway I'm pretty sure this won't get fixed because it's condi and nobody plays enough condi to understand that the skill needs some work. As much as I'd love to see a fix, I doubt we'd get anything anytime soon.

I used to run it in a condi build occasionally, and I'd precast it then steal as you would with cloak and dagger. This adds steal condis, then if you weaponswap with doom and geomancy sigils on P/D and immediately hit 3 to port back and repeater spam you've got a pretty nice spike. Either that or precast impairing daggers, steal, dodge away for caltrops then spam choking gas, both combos worked.

The reason I don't run this now is partially because swipe range is insufficient to allow you to bomb from a "safe" distance these days, and partially because the amount of cleanse and sustain out there now means you're gonna need much more than that to kill most balanced builds. I've admittedly not yet tried the new changes due to work though.

[kokonut.7683]

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

The reason I don't run this now is partially because swipe range is insufficient to allow you to bomb from a "safe" distance these days, and partially because the amount of cleanse and sustain out there now means you're gonna need much more than that to kill most balanced builds. I've admittedly not yet tried the new changes due to work though.

Yep, thats another issue too, its really wierd..you can throw impairing daggers at 900 range but you cant follow up with a steal because swipe has potato range. Casting from stealth kinda works but in wvw you cant even stealth because sentries, t3 towers and almost every class has a reveal and then there are mounts too so every pug can jump you..