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Scourges Sand Savant needs to be reworked.


Demon Puppet.6873

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300 radius 10 target cap is way too strong. It makes Core Necro and Reaper completely obsolete. Taking away this would force every Scourge in WvW to learn how to use triple shade and make the other 2 grandmaster traits actually useful. They are both strong but in comparison to flat out hitting 10 players in such a big radius they fall flat.

My suggestion is to rework Sand Savant to do something such as "Any barrier left over on allies turns into healing" So if you gave an ally 6k barrier and it does not get damaged away it now turns into health. This suggestion is something realistic and in the theme of the Scourge especially since the first two top row Scourge traits have to do with Barrier. This change would not take along time to create since Sanctuary Runes are already in the game and do a similar effect. This would also make WvW fights less chaotic.Just my suggestion after having over 4k hours on Scourge :)

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I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

EDIT: in any case, isn't this more of a WvW issue with regards to Scourge being Power? A PvE Condi Scourge would be taking Demonic Lore, no?

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

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@Demon Puppet.6873 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

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@Demon Puppet.6873 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

Obsolete. hm. so is...Core guard, dhMirage, core mesmerHolo, core engiRanger, druid, soulbeastCore rev, renegadeCore warr, berserkerCore ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)core thief, deadeye

Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

Obsolete. hm. so is...Core guard, dhMirage, core mesmerHolo, core engiRanger, druid, soulbeastCore rev, renegadeCore warr, berserkerCore ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)core thief, deadeye

Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

None of those classes Elite specs are causing as much damage as the Scourges. On top of that why would you not nerf it then? How does core Rev or any other core class being obsolete affect my point? Because the point is if you do nerf Sand Savant Reaper/core necro will immediately become more viable.. So why would this not be done?Their last few patches that stated they are trying to make core and older elite specs more viable for play hints the buffs to everything. But no matter how many buffs you give Core Necro or Reaper they will be out shined due to this trait. Which is why it needs to be reworked.

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@Demon Puppet.6873 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

Obsolete. hm. so is...Core guard, dhMirage, core mesmerHolo, core engiRanger, druid, soulbeastCore rev, renegadeCore warr, berserkerCore ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)core thief, deadeye

Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

None of those classes Elite specs are causing as much damage as the Scourges. On top of that why would you not nerf it then? How does core Rev or any other core class being obsolete affect my point? Because the point is if you do nerf Sand Savant Reaper/core necro will immediately become more viable.. So why would this not be done?Their last few patches that stated they are trying to make core and older elite specs more viable for play hints the buffs to everything. But no matter how many buffs you give Core Necro or Reaper they will be out shined due to this trait. Which is why it needs to be reworked.

Weaver causes more damage than Scourge, for one. And why is damage a factor for anything? Each class has its use, I mean minstrel FB certainly will not be popular cause of dps, will it? Scourge brings mass corrupts, mainly stab and protection, so dps classes (herald and weaver, to a much lesser extent scourge) can kill the zerg.

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@Djamonja.6453 said:Reaper does more damage than scourge in the types of fights you are talking about, they just don't strip boons as well.

this. if you are only on scourge because the dps your squad commander will by now have asked you where your corrupts are at.even if scourges do less dps than now they will be first choice in all necro classes cause the boon rip.

if youre good on reaper surviving in frontline you will always be an option because you will deliver much higher dps than scourges.

most dps comes in general from herald or weaver. specially coordinated face hammer spike can insta downstate 5 people or so as only thing that helps against it is dodge somehow in a moment of super reaction time.

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I don't think people here are really grasping just what makes scourges so strong.

-Death by 1000 cuts. They deal as much damage as a typical herald spike, but it is in 2 dozen hits (in not much less time) vs the heralds 3-5. Makes aegis useless.-AoE Boon strip. Yeah spellbreakers, mesmers, and revenants can all do this as well, except scourges do it so well the only one of those even considered is spellbreakers, and that's because of the unique 'can't apply boons' mechanic more than the strips themselves.-Can spike while dodging. Seriously, this is stupid. A scourge can cast shade then faceroll their f5 skills while dodging and downstate -10- players. No other class can do this.-This is all on a class that was intended to 'support' and it still does support a non-negligible amount.

10 Target caps are absurd. We saw this with hammer heralds and CoR being able to double hit players and hit 5 people per 'block'. Scourges look in the face of some 20+ damage classes and make every single one of them unnecessary or non-viable, with the only exceptions being ones with insanely strong unique effects (Rite of the Great Dwarf, Winds of Disenchantment)

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@"God.2708" said:-This is all on a class that was intended to 'support' and it still does support a non-negligible amount.

Technically Herald is supposed to be a support spec as well, but as you've mentioned hammer rev a few times, you get what I mean. Maybe ANET means something different than we do when they say 'support' :wink:

Here is the thing though: if they reduce the target cap, knowing ANET, they will just increase the damage each of the targets receive, so are we any further ahead? Additionally, in a tight GvG setting, the issue isn't a scourge, but multiple scourges, meaning a single player may be getting hit by multiple shades at the same time.

As someone who pugs regularly, it's interesting to see your frontline just melt when facing off a tight squad / guild.

You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?The OP is talking about the radius of the shade with Sand Savant, which makes sense to me. But again, that's against ONE scourge. Does it matter if the shades are smaller in radius when you have 10 of them landing on your frontline? (maybe it does, dunno)

I'm not arguing against it or anything, just trying to see how any of these will make a major impact. ANET's "big" nerf was to gut Dhuumfire, which led to everyone dropping Cele Scourge for Zerk Scourge - more squishy but more bursty - so clearly they are struggling with a solution.

or...they are content with how Scourge currently operates.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"God.2708" said:-This is all on a class that was intended to 'support' and it still does support a non-negligible amount.

Technically Herald is supposed to be a support spec as well, but as you've mentioned hammer rev a few times, you get what I mean. Maybe ANET means something different than we do when they say 'support' :wink:

Here is the thing though: if they reduce the target cap, knowing ANET, they will just increase the damage each of the targets receive, so are we any further ahead? Additionally, in a tight GvG setting, the issue isn't a scourge, but multiple scourges, meaning a single player may be getting hit by multiple shades at the same time.

As someone who pugs regularly, it's interesting to see your frontline just melt when facing off a tight squad / guild.

You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?The OP is talking about the radius of the shade with Sand Savant, which makes sense to me. But again, that's against ONE scourge. Does it matter if the shades are smaller in radius when you have 10 of them landing on your frontline? (maybe it does, dunno)

I'm not arguing against it or anything, just trying to see how any of these will make a major impact. ANET's "big" nerf was to gut Dhuumfire, which led to everyone dropping Cele Scourge for Zerk Scourge - more squishy but more bursty - so clearly they are struggling with a solution.

or...they are content with how Scourge currently operates.

i play support builds on rev .. whats the issue?

Scourge barrier mechanics and shades are weird..for me they always felt weird and very low effort ment for stacking.start reducing radios on very spammy aoe classes could be a good thing imo.

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Scourge is 2 to 2.5k dmg hits on 10 targets, and there are 20 of them on tag.It's not the only thing broken in wvw, but it is indeed broken. The problem is the design of the spec, so it doesn't appear there is any way to truly balance it. It will either be broken or useless. Anet wants the ktrains to continue, so it will be broken until the next elite spec (if we ever get one).

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?

Of course you can reduce the target cap. The entire issue isn't the scourges damage. It's the fact they can hit more people than anyone else layered into the other benefits (support, boon stripping, etc). This vastly improves the odds of your spike focusing and downing players, and applies way more pressure on a squad when the squad is having to heal them 5 people at a time. You are burning twice the healing/condi clearing CDs compared to your other DPS classes. If I am facing 10 scourges I would much rather them be hitting 60 people on a bomb rather than 100. That means my 25 man squad is taking 2 hits on average when spiked instead of 4.

Imagine eles meteor shower hitting 5 people per rock instead of 3 with a trait. Do you think there'd be an elementalist alive that would take something else in any situation that isn't a 1v1?

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I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Scourge was designed to be a 900-range type of build but with the 300yd spread it works like a 1200-range build. That is what has been broken from the get-go. That is also what I would have adressed on it before this donkey of a balance patch we just had. Now I'm not really sure what to think. However, up until now that has been the obvious balance issue and has broken what otherwise could have been a decent scenario for meta where true 1200-tactics and melee tactics would have been in more of a balance to the pirate-shade meta we've seen.

Other than that, I generally share your plights with the trait, I just think for shades it would have been more effectful to adress its fit-all-sizes application than all the other goodies that are loaded into them. It wouldn't bother too much that shades were powerful if they could be played around and face more diverse sets of risk. Now they just counter everything and have no paper to their rock-scissors. WoD was always the skill that needed a radius decrement but Anet unsurprisingly decided to go their own stubborn, wheel-reinventive and lesser way with that too.

They've had this ridiculous defiance- or pride thing going on for a while now, that when they finally adress something that the community has been pointing out, they refuse to do it in any similarity of ways that the community has suggested. That's how we see the balance patches loaded with changes no one asked for or fixes to things that are not broken, while festering common knowledge issues like shades are left unadressed. Things that get adressed often are that in ways that isn't rooted in any form of experience or player reality. Like the whole Scrapper debacle with "it is now a tank" but hinges entirely on a power version of the Necro's old parasitic contagion that no one ever used to tank anything. It came with a receipt that made people sceptical even before implementation. Yeah, donkey patch.

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Yes, let's remove Sand Savant because it's a good trait to use for WvW. Nevermind that in other game modes, unless you're running healer, it's pretty much useless. Yes let's do that, because someone died to it in WvW a couple of times, nevermind it is one of the most telegraphed means of attacks in game whereas Meteor Shower is super easy to miss while you're in a 20 vs 20 fight. While we're on it, let's remove stealth from the game, and clones, and invulnerability.

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@"Methuselah.4376" said:Yes, let's remove Sand Savant because it's a good trait to use for WvW. Nevermind that in other game modes, unless you're running healer, it's pretty much useless. Yes let's do that, because someone died to it in WvW a couple of times, nevermind it is one of the most telegraphed means of attacks in game whereas Meteor Shower is super easy to miss while you're in a 20 vs 20 fight. While we're on it, let's remove stealth from the game, and clones, and invulnerability.

Wasn't there a thread "remove everything, give everyone a stick"?XD

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I mean, I wouldn't mind (less so than other nerfs I have hated) if they reduced the range/target cap but the single shade is the way I prefer to play Scourge. I'd rather they just made one shade baseline instead of having three shades to play with, then you can remake Sand Savant.

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