can we please not let scourge hit 10 targets anymore

[geist.4126]

Maybe make scourges hit 20 targets.

[Chaba.5410]

@derd.6413 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@derd.6413 said:this would only be relevant in WvW where if a necro get's close enough to the enemy zerg to hit the max 10 ppl (because he has to get close) he's most of the time dead within 4 seconds.

Sounds more like group that can't melee push.

because ppl melee push with their necros appearently

What do you think there is a spite/curses axe/scepter build for? Twiddling thumbs?

both of those are mid range weapons and the necro's i've seen stay behind the melee train to spike down straglers and downed opponents and those that are at the forefront of a push usually go down really quickly.

Doesn't matter what you've seen. A necro isn't going to be maximizing Devouring Darkness nor Unholy Feast if they're at max range on stragglers. If a necro is going down at the forefront, it means a group that can't melee push, like I originally posted.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Shade skills hit 5 targets if you take the trait Sand Savant. The other 5 targets are being hit from the attack that pulses off of your character when using a shade skill. The max targets you can hit from range therefore is still only 5.

not disputed, slightly irrelevant.

Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.

It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range.

A possible solution could be to put all effects on the shade and remove the double effect from the necromancer making scourge more dependant on positioning his shade. Obviously shade skills would then have to be buffed, which would cause a new issue of more ranged pressure.

5+5=10.

Shade skill is 10. 5 from the shade and 5 from the necro.

Shade skills activate on both the shade and the necro. 5 from both is a total of 10.

....

You basically repeated what I said but failed to grasp the actual significance...

Let me explain AGAIN:The 10 targets are not centered around the shade. If they were, this would be way easier to balance. Reduce the targets hit by 5 and the problem is mostly solved.

As is right now, 5 of the targets are centered around the necromancer and 5 more around the shade (which I explicitly stated) which forces him into melee range putting him at a severe disadvantage. To reduce the amount of targets hit, either the shade or the necromancer needs to hit less targets. Either approach causes further issues.

If the entire damage is placed on the shade, the necromancer loses his personal protection which would need to get balanced around. Way worse though, the shade would need to get buffed to compensate which in turn increases the range pressure scourge would have.

On the opposite, if the shade loses targets hit, the scourage loses range pressure and becomes even more deadly at close range making other aspects of the game mode difficult to balance, say when the scourge is being aggressed upon while on his own or while both blobs are runnung through each other.

Thank you for checking my math though and assuming I specifically stated what you said without knowing that 5+5 = 10.

We are talking about shade skills aren't we? 5 around the nec and 5 around the shade, that equals 10 doesn't it?

It doesnt matter if the necro has to be in range or what your bias list of pros and cons are.. We are talking about Shade skills and math.

So back to the point.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.

It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range.

Which equals 10.

The difference between 10 targets on shade and 5 targets on necro and 5 on shade are two vastly different problems in both complexity as well as scope.

So stating that the shade hits 10 targets, which it does not, the scrouge hits 10 targets, not his shade, is incorrect on multiple levels. Most importantly from a balance complexity.

You might have noticed that TC has amended his thread title as well as his opening post to accomodate for this difference. My original reply was towards the incorrect statement that the necromancer shade was hitting 10 targets, lucky enough other people in this thread picked up on this (TC included).

Talking about shade skills here mate, nothing else.

You know those buttons f1, f2, f3 and f4.

So again...

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.

It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range.

Which equals 10.10 players hit from a shade skill.

The original opening post was worded in such a way that the 10 targets were around the shade, which they are not. Hence why I clarified the issue. So again, is there a reason as to why you are being obtuse beside showing that you gave this issue and the balance problems between both cases exactly 0 thought?

To repeat, even TC amnded his opening post and thread title to make this destinction clear.

I already gave you the benefit of doubt, perhaps you should edit yours too then.

Why would I amend my post? It clearly deals with a past post (as can be seen) and the conversation has moved on almost 2 pages. You not tracking this or making note of it is neither my nor any engaged posters problem.

So once again, what is your issue atm besides trolling?

No issues here besides your math.

I came in to the thread late, you want to be nit picky and say shade skills dont hit 10 people because 5 are hit around the nec and 5 around the shade.

That is neither my problem, nor the problem of this thread. If you came late, you could have spent an iota of time catching up. Instead you deliberatly came and picked a fight after the issue was already resolved.

I just read the thread and saw that someone was having trouble adding up 5 and 5.No fight intended and im sorry if 5 plus 5 confused you.

Is it possible that the size of the aoe ring is the issue?If anet removed the big aoe circles wouldn’t be better for botth parties?

Scourges need to apply more to play as well and focus on wich target to spike.

well, ppl are geared wrong and because of that, they get sneezed and died.

if players played synergy builds, theyd laugh at scourge.

normally groups lack

1. experienced players in coms
2. using the correct wvw builds
3. numbers

and so ppl running full zerk sword warhorn axe axe warriors running all signets pure damage. dies to the same using gs axe shield war.

and a full squad of staff cele weavers will probably beat a full group of scourges zerk or cele scourge

...

posted my example earlier but retracted it. <3

now with theif traps, having one theif will catch the back line or bad players with traps for the kill.

also over tanky wont work either, its best to have zerg busting setup with full heal and full damage to be able to eat away at the enemy.

---

ppl hate scourge because they are not thinking about how to counter it. :/

[L A T I O N.8923]

Cant they Just rework scourge:1 shade at the time, can be moved by pbaoeCan be moved Any timeSlightly longer cast timeNo cool down on shadecast3-5 seconds internal cool down on scourge skills (f2-f5 whenever another f2-f5 skill is cast)

This would fix the spanningThe target dramaAND the viability of the shadeskill (makes the mobility of the scourge less required

[Voltekka.2375]

@"L A T I O N.8923" said:Cant they Just rework scourge:1 shade at the time, can be moved by pbaoeCan be moved Any timeSlightly longer cast timeNo cool down on shadecast3-5 seconds internal cool down on scourge skills (f2-f5 whenever another f2-f5 skill is cast)

This would fix the spanningThe target dramaAND the viability of the shadeskill (makes the mobility of the scourge less required

I like this. We can also either delete necro from wvw, or add 3-5secs internal cooldown on firebrand boon application from tomes, (eg you use one page from tome 3? wait 3-5 secs for another one, same goes for tome 2 etc), we can add this "internal cooldown application" on all class specific skills, who is stopping us?If scourge is your issue, maybe, just MAYBE, your firebrands and revs and scrappers suck horribly? Nah, jut nerf scourge (again).

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"L A T I O N.8923" said:Cant they Just rework scourge:1 shade at the time, can be moved by pbaoeCan be moved Any timeSlightly longer cast timeNo cool down on shadecast3-5 seconds internal cool down on scourge skills (f2-f5 whenever another f2-f5 skill is cast)

This would fix the spanningThe target dramaAND the viability of the shadeskill (makes the mobility of the scourge less required

I like this. We can also either delete necro from wvw, or add 3-5secs internal cooldown on firebrand boon application from tomes, (eg you use one page from tome 3? wait 3-5 secs for another one, same goes for tome 2 etc), we can add this "internal cooldown application" on all class specific skills, who is stopping us?If scourge is your issue, maybe, just MAYBE, your firebrands and revs and scrappers suck horribly? Nah, jut nerf scourge (again).

Im game on nerving firebrand and all shitty instacast skillsBecause this game was designed around 'cooldowns and casttimes' instacast is fucked up and spamming asks bad gameplayLook at all scourge, firebrand, thief and mesmer topics on the forums...

BTW i offer a solution instead of BASH around as you do, maybe your suggestion didn't reach me. Tell me: what you suggest?

[Voltekka.2375]

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:Cant they Just rework scourge:1 shade at the time, can be moved by pbaoeCan be moved Any timeSlightly longer cast timeNo cool down on shadecast3-5 seconds internal cool down on scourge skills (f2-f5 whenever another f2-f5 skill is cast)

This would fix the spanningThe target dramaAND the viability of the shadeskill (makes the mobility of the scourge less required

I like this. We can also either delete necro from wvw, or add 3-5secs internal cooldown on firebrand boon application from tomes, (eg you use one page from tome 3? wait 3-5 secs for another one, same goes for tome 2 etc), we can add this "internal cooldown application" on all class specific skills, who is stopping us?If scourge is your issue, maybe, just MAYBE, your firebrands and revs and scrappers suck horribly? Nah, jut nerf scourge (again).

Im game on nerving firebrand and all kitten instacast skillsBecause this game was designed around 'cooldowns and casttimes' instacast is kitten up and spamming asks bad gameplayLook at all scourge, firebrand, thief and mesmer topics on the forums...

BTW i offer a solution instead of BASH around as you do, maybe your suggestion didn't reach me. Tell me: what you suggest?

You offer no solution. Deleting essentially a class, is no solution. What does scourge do? Booncorrupt. Damage is secondary. Why does booncorrupt - hence many scourges - need to be in high numbers? Thats right, cause of boonspamming. On every subgroup, there are 2 scourges for 1 firebrand, and we are not counting scrappers (who convert condies into boons), revs, healtempests etc. So, ye. There is your answer. IF scourge were to be nerfed (again), I would look into the issue of permaboonsharing and boonspamming first. Cause blindly nerfing a class thats meant to counter boonspam meta, means even worse balance. That is what I would suggest.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:Cant they Just rework scourge:1 shade at the time, can be moved by pbaoeCan be moved Any timeSlightly longer cast timeNo cool down on shadecast3-5 seconds internal cool down on scourge skills (f2-f5 whenever another f2-f5 skill is cast)

This would fix the spanningThe target dramaAND the viability of the shadeskill (makes the mobility of the scourge less required

I like this. We can also either delete necro from wvw, or add 3-5secs internal cooldown on firebrand boon application from tomes, (eg you use one page from tome 3? wait 3-5 secs for another one, same goes for tome 2 etc), we can add this "internal cooldown application" on all class specific skills, who is stopping us?If scourge is your issue, maybe, just MAYBE, your firebrands and revs and scrappers suck horribly? Nah, jut nerf scourge (again).

Im game on nerving firebrand and all kitten instacast skillsBecause this game was designed around 'cooldowns and casttimes' instacast is kitten up and spamming asks bad gameplayLook at all scourge, firebrand, thief and mesmer topics on the forums...

BTW i offer a solution instead of BASH around as you do, maybe your suggestion didn't reach me. Tell me: what you suggest?

You offer no solution. Deleting essentially a class, is no solution. What does scourge do? Booncorrupt. Damage is secondary. Why does booncorrupt - hence many scourges - need to be in high numbers? Thats right, cause of boonspamming. On every subgroup, there are 2 scourges for 1 firebrand, and we are not counting scrappers (who convert condies into boons), revs, healtempests etc. So, ye. There is your answer. IF scourge were to be nerfed (again), I would look into the issue of permaboonsharing and boonspamming first. Cause blindly nerfing a class thats meant to counter boonspam meta, means even worse balance. That is what I would suggest.

Deleting a class? Can we please stop the drama and exceturating (not sure how to spell that)? I told a sollution at one point, i never: scourge is the only target for needing a nerve. And yes a nerve 'again', balancing is finetuning, if after nerf IT overperforms IT needs a nerve again. Hence it's reallife, not a take-a-turn show

[nthmetal.9652]

@Voltekka.2375 said:You offer no solution. Deleting essentially a class, is no solution. What does scourge do? Booncorrupt. Damage is secondary. Why does booncorrupt - hence many scourges - need to be in high numbers? Thats right, cause of boonspamming. On every subgroup, there are 2 scourges for 1 firebrand, and we are not counting scrappers (who convert condies into boons), revs, healtempests etc. So, ye. There is your answer. IF scourge were to be nerfed (again), I would look into the issue of permaboonsharing and boonspamming first. Cause blindly nerfing a class thats meant to counter boonspam meta, means even worse balance. That is what I would suggest.

It is strange (well not really, but you'll see what I mean) how different the perception of one thing can be. You say scourges must be there, because of boonspam. When I see our zerg heading into a confrontation, I always get knocked around. Not enough stab. Often very lots of condi. It seems to me, that despite the boonspam, there are never enough boons around to deal with the corruption and strips of scourges, spellbreakers. The boonspam needs to exist, because boons are almost immediately removed upon coming into contact with the hot zone of 20 stacked condi / strip areas and effects.

And without boons you just die when touching the hotzone.

You wanna get rid of boonspam? Get rid of the reason it needs to exist. You need the boons to survive contact with AoE-stacked hotzones. This whole meta is not beneficial for the experience of large scale group combat in WvW. I am pretty sure, we could get to a meta which allows for more diversity if we get rid of the boonspam. To do that we need to get rod of the corruptionspam. To do that we also need to get rid fo AoE stacking.

[Voltekka.2375]

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:You offer no solution. Deleting essentially a class, is no solution. What does scourge do? Booncorrupt. Damage is secondary. Why does booncorrupt - hence many scourges - need to be in high numbers? Thats right, cause of boonspamming. On every subgroup, there are 2 scourges for 1 firebrand, and we are not counting scrappers (who convert condies into boons), revs, healtempests etc. So, ye. There is your answer. IF scourge were to be nerfed (again), I would look into the issue of permaboonsharing and boonspamming first. Cause blindly nerfing a class thats meant to counter boonspam meta, means even worse balance. That is what I would suggest.

It is strange (well not really, but you'll see what I mean) how different the perception of one thing can be. You say scourges must be there, because of boonspam. When I see our zerg heading into a confrontation, I always get knocked around. Not enough stab. Often very lots of condi. It seems to me, that despite the boonspam, there are never enough boons around to deal with the corruption and strips of scourges, spellbreakers. The boonspam needs to exist, because boons are almost immediately removed upon coming into contact with the hot zone of 20 stacked condi / strip areas and effects.

And without boons you just die when touching the hotzone.

You wanna get rid of boonspam? Get rid of the reason it needs to exist. You

need

the boons to

survive contact

with AoE-stacked hotzones. This whole meta is not beneficial for the experience of large scale group combat in WvW. I am pretty sure, we could get to a meta which allows for more diversity if we get rid of the boonspam. To do that we need to get rod of the corruptionspam. To do that we also need to get rid fo AoE stacking.

That is because most of your servers' firebrands arent very good. Thats why you get knocked around. And behold! Better players DO exist.

[nthmetal.9652]

The quality of the FBs isn't the issue, that's beside the point. The point is: Without them, you die very easily. You need them. And because you need them you need scourges. And the other way around. This whole discussion shows that this dynamic between fb and scourge is problematic, but you can't remove one without removing the other. I even doubt you can remove both of them. If the clouds finds other sources for dangerous AoEs we're still stuck in the same situation: Boons are necessary to counter the stacked AoEs.

[Cyninja.2954]

@nthmetal.9652 said:The quality of the FBs isn't the issue, that's beside the point. The point is: Without them, you die very easily. You need them. And because you need them you need scourges. And the other way around. This whole discussion shows that this dynamic between fb and scourge is problematic, but you can't remove one without removing the other. I even doubt you can remove both of them. If the clouds finds other sources for dangerous AoEs we're still stuck in the same situation: Boons are necessary to counter the stacked AoEs.

While I would not get in on the discussion about what came first, the firebrand or the scrouge (both being elite to their core classes which have enjoyed god tier in WvW since day 1), the main issue here is stability.

Guardian remains the 1 class which provides access to this boon (together with aegis) above all other.

Unlike say chrono who had to give up both quickness and alacrity to other classes (which can provide these boons way better), this has never occured for guardian and thei almost exclusive right to spam aegis and stability. If any balance needs to be made, it would have to start at the very basics of which boon is how important and how many classes can provide said boon. In case of stability, it is one of the only ways to deal with crowd control in this game. Crowd control being almost always one of THE biggest game changers in any competive game mode. It's not even as much about any of the other boons (though they sure don't hurt) but rather the ability to prevent control loss is just to important for anything where players interact with each other.

[Taobella.6597]

i mean nerco hit 20 in beta XD

[Drakh.2941]

They could just change it so default damage is pulsing around the Sand Shade only and changing to Harbinger Shroud changes damage output to pulsing around the Necro only. Lower shade skill cooldowns to PVE timers and it could solve people's issues with too much AoE.

As for Rev's, they'd need to lower CoR damage to keep them in line with this necro change or the meta would just change to all Revs.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I suppose why I initially stated my post the way I did is cuz for 10 targets, you press a shade skill, and also the necro counts as a shade.

but yeah it was confusing so I changed my OP.