“Not like WoW”? False, this game is competing with WoW - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

“Not like WoW”? False, this game is competing with WoW

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Comments

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    I dont really understand why people say gw2 is great because you dont need to grind, but that is what most people do, just take a look on how populated are the farming maps : Istan pre-nerf, dragonfall, SW.

    Because players don’t need to grind in GW2 in order to play contents (other than high difficulty stuff). In WoW, players have to grind for gears on a regular basis because it directly affects the player’s ability to play a good chunk of max level contents. In GW2, not grinding doesn’t prevent players from playing contents because grinding is generally for skins or QoL stuff that people want to grind for, and do not prevent players from playing contents.

    ^^

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    I dont really understand why people say gw2 is great because you dont need to grind, but that is what most people do, just take a look on how populated are the farming maps : Istan pre-nerf, dragonfall, SW.
    In gw2 we dont grind for gear, we grind for skins, which is the same thing but more mind numbing and way less rewarding, you just need to faceroll mobs in PvE spamming auto attacks.

    WoW maybe doesnt compete with gw2 for the casual pve audience which are interested in open world PvE content and single story mode released every 3 months.
    But it competes for the hardcore Raiders, WvWers to some extent and casual and hardcore PvPers.
    Combat mechanics in gw2 are better, but the skill ceilling in wow(classic) is much higher because you need to have a knowledge of the game in general not only on classes, wow is way more complex game compared to gw2 PvE and PvP wise.
    WoW will not have updates but it's better not have updates than have bad ones.

    The difference is skin grind is 100% completely optional. Gear grind is required if you want to do content. I'd say that makes a world of difference. As long as I don't feel I have to grind to "catch up" it doesn't matter if grind exists in the game. I'm not a grinder, I just play a lot, but I play all different things all the time. Eventually I get everything I need, usually without grinding.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    Blizzard and Arenanet has an history. Arenanet founders Wyatt, Strain and O'Brien where all working for Blizzard when they left and started Arenanet. So it is obvious that, atleast at first, they wanted to do something different. Wyatt and Strain went onwards to different positions in the gaming industry and to genre's further away from the MMORPG genre.

    I disagree that GW1 and 2 have been competing specifically with WoW. They are the lead game in the genre and so they look at WoW, but it is not a real competition. What does worry me is a change of direction after HoT
    Before HoT and in the manifesto, Arenanet aimed to do things better then WoW. Something they also did in GW1. I remember that the success of GW1 came with factions and the title system in it. It draw out a lot of WoW players, as it solved the need for a reward for the grind between content releases. Blizzard quickly introduced titles in WoW as well to counter it. It wasn't the first time that GW1 and 2 where revolutionising. Going free2play was another one. Ohters had done it before, but it was basically a very crippled version of the game. F2P GW2 is very much playable and enjoyable.

    Arenanet was boundbreaking. They didn't care about what an MMO was supposed to be or do, but focussed on what they see best for a game. By looking and imrpoving things from other games, but also by their own innovations. That part is gone it seems and I miss it.

    Speaking of Patrick Wyatt. A few years ago, he ended up at Amazon game studio's. They recently announced they are working on a new Lord of the Rings MMORPG, so it seems that once more after TERA he is in direct competition with Arenanet and Mike O'Brien. Something that shows some promising signs for the future of this genre.

    Well mounts in this game are ground breaking, but you don't seem to count those for some reason. A big deal was made about those, and not just in Guild Wars 2 forums. It reached the first page on reddit in r/gaming with 40k upvotes or something.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    Blizzard and Arenanet has an history. Arenanet founders Wyatt, Strain and O'Brien where all working for Blizzard when they left and started Arenanet. So it is obvious that, atleast at first, they wanted to do something different. Wyatt and Strain went onwards to different positions in the gaming industry and to genre's further away from the MMORPG genre.

    I disagree that GW1 and 2 have been competing specifically with WoW. They are the lead game in the genre and so they look at WoW, but it is not a real competition. What does worry me is a change of direction after HoT
    Before HoT and in the manifesto, Arenanet aimed to do things better then WoW. Something they also did in GW1. I remember that the success of GW1 came with factions and the title system in it. It draw out a lot of WoW players, as it solved the need for a reward for the grind between content releases. Blizzard quickly introduced titles in WoW as well to counter it. It wasn't the first time that GW1 and 2 where revolutionising. Going free2play was another one. Ohters had done it before, but it was basically a very crippled version of the game. F2P GW2 is very much playable and enjoyable.

    Arenanet was boundbreaking. They didn't care about what an MMO was supposed to be or do, but focussed on what they see best for a game. By looking and imrpoving things from other games, but also by their own innovations. That part is gone it seems and I miss it.

    Speaking of Patrick Wyatt. A few years ago, he ended up at Amazon game studio's. They recently announced they are working on a new Lord of the Rings MMORPG, so it seems that once more after TERA he is in direct competition with Arenanet and Mike O'Brien. Something that shows some promising signs for the future of this genre.

    Well mounts in this game are ground breaking, but you don't seem to count those for some reason. A big deal was made about those, and not just in Guild Wars 2 forums. It reached the first page on reddit in r/gaming with 40k upvotes or something.

    Mounts in GW2 where ground breaking, but not in the genre. The way it is introduced is not unique, except for the mastery-system, but that wasnt unique to mounts.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563
    @BlueJin.4127
    Its optional but thats the only thing left to do for players that are not into WvW/PvP where (most) people play for fun and not for the grind.
    Thats why farming maps are so populated and what most people do in gw2, a mind numbing farm.
    Thats why so many people burnout from playing gw2, its a constant grind for gold to convert it into gems, its not challenging, rewardful or fun.
    This game is in a vicious cycle, people get bored until a new map is released with more grind to get bored and wait for the next grind.
    Im a player who enjoys all kinds of content except for single player story mode content(there are plenty of single players for that).
    For me Gw2 lacks what wow offers, long term goals, challenging open world, meaningful PvE progression, open world PvP and competitive PvP and i can almost guarantee that at least that the reasons most people quit gw2 is among one of these topics and classic wow will drag a lot of those players.

    Dont get me wrong i really like gw2 but its turning into what retail WoW is now a grind for the sake of grind and you can already see players asking for a vanilla gw2 server.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    I dont really understand why people say gw2 is great because you dont need to grind, but that is what most people do, just take a look on how populated are the farming maps : Istan pre-nerf, dragonfall, SW.

    Because none of that is forced grinding. When a new LW chapter is released, do players need to grind new gear? New reputations? New crafting levels? No.

    In WoW you must grind, there is no choice, while the grinds in GW2 are completely optional.

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    But it competes for the hardcore Raiders, WvWers to some extent and casual and hardcore PvPers.

    This is true, WoW has always been centered around Raiding and Arena, their actual endgame activity, while GW2's endgame remains largely static, with both new raids and fractals being released at a very slow pace, and WvW/sPvP additions even slower.

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    Combat mechanics in gw2 are better, but the skill ceilling in wow(classic) is much higher because you need to have a knowledge of the game in general not only on classes, wow is way more complex game compared to gw2 PvE and PvP wise.

    Completely and entirely incorrect, and anyone who has spent any time playing WoW knows this.

    WoW is likely the MMO that lead to the phrase "rock, paper, scissors" PvP balance. Some classes hard counter others, so in a fight of equally skilled players, the outcome can be 100% pre-determined depending on composition . A Ret Paladin for example will never beat a Frost Mage if both players are of equal skill - never. Even if the Ret is exceptional, it's still a toss up. If a Priest meets a Rogue, the Priest is dead. End sentence.

    Gear and class/spec matchups make up a large percentage of a player's effectiveness in WoW, both in PvP and PvE.

    If you think you're going to jump into WoW and "outskill" your opponents in a 1v3 like you can in GW2, you're in a for a very rude surprise.

    EDIT: forgot to address PvE being more complex in WoW. Again, false. In Vanilla it was a joke. You took 40 people into a raid, and in many cases, 5-6 of your team were afk the whole fight. Things changed as the expansions went on, but in WoW there is no specialization, no build diversity, and no room for customization, unlike in GW2 where you choose the stats on your gear, the type of weapons, sigils, runes and utilities you use - for good or ill. It is much easier to neuter your character with poor gear, weapon, upgrade, trait and utility choices in GW2 than it is to do the same in WoW.

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    The difference is that WoW collected all the Dark Souls players that beat the game using Rock Band drum sets and GW2 collected all the Dark Souls players that asked for an easy mode. Content evolved accordingly.

    All is vain.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    @Vayne.8563
    @BlueJin.4127
    Its optional but thats the only thing left to do for players that are not into WvW/PvP where (most) people play for fun and not for the grind.
    Thats why farming maps are so populated and what most people do in gw2, a mind numbing farm.
    Thats why so many people burnout from playing gw2, its a constant grind for gold to convert it into gems, its not challenging, rewardful or fun.
    This game is in a vicious cycle, people get bored until a new map is released with more grind to get bored and wait for the next grind.
    Im a player who enjoys all kinds of content except for single player story mode content(there are plenty of single players for that).
    For me Gw2 lacks what wow offers, long term goals, challenging open world, meaningful PvE progression, open world PvP and competitive PvP and i can almost guarantee that at least that the reasons most people quit gw2 is among one of these topics and classic wow will drag a lot of those players.

    Dont get me wrong i really like gw2 but its turning into what retail WoW is now a grind for the sake of grind and you can already see players asking for a vanilla gw2 server.

    I don't think most players find the grind fun and I don't think most players actually grind. I have a guild full of people who don't grind but manage to get stuff. We do what's called incidental farming. It doesn't matter if it takes longer to get something because we've having fun. That's how the people I generally play with roll> We're not so goal driven. We're fun driven.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    I dont really understand why people say gw2 is great because you dont need to grind, but that is what most people do, just take a look on how populated are the farming maps : Istan pre-nerf, dragonfall, SW.

    Because none of that is forced grinding. When a new LW chapter is released, do players need to grind new gear? New reputations? New crafting levels? No.

    In WoW you must grind, there is no choice, while the grinds in GW2 are completely optional.

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    But it competes for the hardcore Raiders, WvWers to some extent and casual and hardcore PvPers.

    This is true, WoW has always been centered around Raiding and Arena, their actual endgame activity, while GW2's endgame remains largely static, with both new raids and fractals being released at a very slow pace, and WvW/sPvP additions even slower.

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    Combat mechanics in gw2 are better, but the skill ceilling in wow(classic) is much higher because you need to have a knowledge of the game in general not only on classes, wow is way more complex game compared to gw2 PvE and PvP wise.

    Completely and entirely incorrect, and anyone who has spent any time playing WoW knows this.

    WoW is likely the MMO that lead to the phrase "rock, paper, scissors" PvP balance. Some classes hard counter others, so in a fight of equally skilled players, the outcome can be 100% pre-determined depending on composition . A Ret Paladin for example will never beat a Frost Mage if both players are of equal skill - never. Even if the Ret is exceptional, it's still a toss up. If a Priest meets a Rogue, the Priest is dead. End sentence.

    Gear and class/spec matchups make up a large percentage of a player's effectiveness in WoW, both in PvP and PvE.

    If you think you're going to jump into WoW and "outskill" your opponents in a 1v3 like you can in GW2, you're in a for a very rude surprise.

    EDIT: forgot to address PvE being more complex in WoW. Again, false. In Vanilla it was a joke. You took 40 people into a raid, and in many cases, 5-6 of your team were afk the whole fight. Things changed as the expansions went on, but in WoW there is no specialization, no build diversity, and no room for customization, unlike in GW2 where you choose the stats on your gear, the type of weapons, sigils, runes and utilities you use - for good or ill. It is much easier to neuter your character with poor gear, weapon, upgrade, trait and utility choices in GW2 than it is to do the same in WoW.

    We are talking here about vanilla wow not retail which is a completely different game
    Any class can beat any class because profession items, trinkets and usable items.
    And priests are the kings of 1v1 in vanilla wow and everyone who PvPed in vanilla know this.
    And in fact, its quite possible to 1vx in any class that its not a full healer or tank, just type it on YouTube.

    Yes, in vanilla builds are restrict with dull rotation but you have so many usable tools for general or specific uses/bosses.
    And no If 5-6 players afk in a fight its almost a guaranteed wipe in most bosses, this plays a part on its complexity, you need 40 people paying attention in the fight, in some fights 1 player is enough to wipe the entire raid.
    Also vanila didnt have arena.

    Dont try to give opnions based on your experiences on retail WoW, they are irrelevant on a vanilla wow discusion

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    Blizzard and Arenanet has an history. Arenanet founders Wyatt, Strain and O'Brien where all working for Blizzard when they left and started Arenanet. So it is obvious that, atleast at first, they wanted to do something different. Wyatt and Strain went onwards to different positions in the gaming industry and to genre's further away from the MMORPG genre.

    I disagree that GW1 and 2 have been competing specifically with WoW. They are the lead game in the genre and so they look at WoW, but it is not a real competition. What does worry me is a change of direction after HoT
    Before HoT and in the manifesto, Arenanet aimed to do things better then WoW. Something they also did in GW1. I remember that the success of GW1 came with factions and the title system in it. It draw out a lot of WoW players, as it solved the need for a reward for the grind between content releases. Blizzard quickly introduced titles in WoW as well to counter it. It wasn't the first time that GW1 and 2 where revolutionising. Going free2play was another one. Ohters had done it before, but it was basically a very crippled version of the game. F2P GW2 is very much playable and enjoyable.

    Arenanet was boundbreaking. They didn't care about what an MMO was supposed to be or do, but focussed on what they see best for a game. By looking and imrpoving things from other games, but also by their own innovations. That part is gone it seems and I miss it.

    Speaking of Patrick Wyatt. A few years ago, he ended up at Amazon game studio's. They recently announced they are working on a new Lord of the Rings MMORPG, so it seems that once more after TERA he is in direct competition with Arenanet and Mike O'Brien. Something that shows some promising signs for the future of this genre.

    Well mounts in this game are ground breaking, but you don't seem to count those for some reason. A big deal was made about those, and not just in Guild Wars 2 forums. It reached the first page on reddit in r/gaming with 40k upvotes or something.

    Mounts in GW2 where ground breaking, but not in the genre. The way it is introduced is not unique, except for the mastery-system, but that wasnt unique to mounts.

    I'm sorry but this is the absolute best implementation of mounts in any MMORPG I've ever played by a long shot.

  • Rogue.8235Rogue.8235 Member ✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    Just popping in to say that companies within the same industry can compete using a differentiation strategy. Arenanet's product is very differentiated as evidenced by one of their design philosophies (you should always be happy to see another player in the open world). There is no kill stealing, node stealing, and events are more profitable with more players (more enemies, more loot bags, etc.). Additionally, skills and traits are specifically designed to be beneficial for others and not screw them over (there are comments from devs concerning rune of sanctuary where they discussed this). There are other core design philosophies that others can probably point out that support Anet's differentiation strategy.

    Of course they are competing. This doesn’t mean they are the same. I’m not sure you understand the words you’re using.

    "The ancient Oracle said I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing at all." - Socrates

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    @Vayne.8563
    @BlueJin.4127
    Its optional but thats the only thing left to do for players that are not into WvW/PvP where (most) people play for fun and not for the grind.
    Thats why farming maps are so populated and what most people do in gw2, a mind numbing farm.
    Thats why so many people burnout from playing gw2, its a constant grind for gold to convert it into gems, its not challenging, rewardful or fun.
    This game is in a vicious cycle, people get bored until a new map is released with more grind to get bored and wait for the next grind.
    Im a player who enjoys all kinds of content except for single player story mode content(there are plenty of single players for that).
    For me Gw2 lacks what wow offers, long term goals, challenging open world, meaningful PvE progression, open world PvP and competitive PvP and i can almost guarantee that at least that the reasons most people quit gw2 is among one of these topics and classic wow will drag a lot of those players.

    Dont get me wrong i really like gw2 but its turning into what retail WoW is now a grind for the sake of grind and you can already see players asking for a vanilla gw2 server.

    I don't think most players find the grind fun and I don't think most players actually grind. I have a guild full of people who don't grind but manage to get stuff. We do what's called incidental farming. It doesn't matter if it takes longer to get something because we've having fun. That's how the people I generally play with roll> We're not so goal driven. We're fun driven.

    Same here, but unfortunately thats what most people do, grind for skins and once they get it, they burnout because that what gw2 endgame offers and why you see so many people saying they dont know what to do, they are bored etc...
    And yes, its their fault they got bored but its also gw2 lack of fun and satisfying endgame, i know this because it happened to myself when i started playing gw2 and its the reason i took a break
    In vanilla i get the exact opposite feeling once i get a new item,while you can get frustrated at times when you lose a roll or the item didnt dropped after weeks of raiding, its so satisfying when you get what you wanted and this satisfaction is what keep most people playing the game in the long term.
    I play gw2 for a different reason, the combat is what keeps me playing despite class balance being a disaster and powercreep, it's fun.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    We are talking here about vanilla wow not retail which is a completely different game
    Any class can beat any class because profession items, trinkets and usable items.
    And priests are the kings of 1v1 in vanilla wow and everyone who PvPed in vanilla know this.
    And in fact, its quite possible to 1vx in any class that its not a full healer or tank, just type it on YouTube.

    Yes, in vanilla builds are restrict with dull rotation but you have so many usable tools for general or specific uses/bosses.
    And no If 5-6 players afk in a fight its almost a guaranteed wipe in most bosses, this plays a part on its complexity, you need 40 people paying attention in the fight, in some fights 1 player is enough to wipe the entire raid.
    Also vanila didnt have arena.

    Dont try to give opnions based on your experiences on retail WoW, they are irrelevant on a vanilla wow discusion

    Say this out loud with me: Turkeyspit. Played. In. Vanilla. WoW. I didn't stay for too long, but really got into it with TBC where I was in a server leading raiding guild.

    But please, tell me more about what you've learned from watching YouTube :trollface:

    Also, please copy/paste the above on the WoW forums and send us a link. Would be worth a chuckle.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    We are talking here about vanilla wow not retail which is a completely different game
    Any class can beat any class because profession items, trinkets and usable items.
    And priests are the kings of 1v1 in vanilla wow and everyone who PvPed in vanilla know this.
    And in fact, its quite possible to 1vx in any class that its not a full healer or tank, just type it on YouTube.

    Yes, in vanilla builds are restrict with dull rotation but you have so many usable tools for general or specific uses/bosses.
    And no If 5-6 players afk in a fight its almost a guaranteed wipe in most bosses, this plays a part on its complexity, you need 40 people paying attention in the fight, in some fights 1 player is enough to wipe the entire raid.
    Also vanila didnt have arena.

    Dont try to give opnions based on your experiences on retail WoW, they are irrelevant on a vanilla wow discusion

    Say this out loud with me: Turkeyspit. Played. In. Vanilla. WoW. I didn't stay for too long, but really got into it with TBC where I was in a server leading raiding guild.

    But please, tell me more about what you've learned from watching YouTube :trollface:

    Also, please copy/paste the above on the WoW forums and send us a link. Would be worth a chuckle.

    lol i played vanilla back in the day and played vanilla wow on pservers from 2013 until 2017 when i started playing gw2, tired to start over and over again because blizzard shutdowns.

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You know, WoW didnt invent any of those things you are complaining about. Yes it may had made it more popular and even did things better. You can say wow ripped off everquest or even better everquest ripped off ultima online. Even Ff7 had most of the kitten you are comparing way before wow.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Iozeph.5617 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Almost none of use took the manifesto too seriously, even former crazed fanboys like myself. Any company, gaming or otherwise, is going to make promises and exaggerate and all that horseshit. And kitten does change over time, its been 7 years since GW2 came out and even longer since the Manifesto video. A lot of the people that were with Anet at the time have left. All that said, I am personally inclined to think that Anet did come pretty close to the designs and philosophies laid out in the manifesto, and have stay fairly close as time has gone by. I have my criticisms, and I've been vocal about them, but I still do enjoy this game a great deal.

    So many people say that, but to me that just smacks of the sort of after-the-fact rationalisation done in the hopes of distancing oneself from a group in order to mitigate feelings of shame over something bad, "Oh I knew it all along, even if I got on board the hype train, spent a lot of money on gems, expansions, character slots etc. Huge fanboy, but even so - I was never fooled(and an therefore better and more intelligent than others who also invested). I threw my money away assuming I was being lied to and still gave it over gladly(because...?) But hey, at least I'm not as dumb and gullible as those others over there -those clods actually took somebody at their word and believed the manifesto was going to stick. Who does that anymore? Hahaha...haha...ha..."

    Not putting words in your mouth mind, but that's how it comes across every time I read that sort of thing. Point is there's nothing wrong admitting to feeling you've been had or even being a little angry about it. After all the shame doesn't lay with those taken in, but with those who've played them false.

    And yes, while things do change over time, generally they tend not to change in such wide-sweeping fashion, not such that a company does nearly a complete reversal from their professed mission statement.

    Well, I can't change that you think I'm "rationalizing after the fact", though you've wildly strawmaned what it was that I said and have indeed put words in my mouth. However, since a moderator has chosen to delete the comment I made that you are quoting, I've been put off any further desire to try to argue in this thread.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rogue.8235 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    Just popping in to say that companies within the same industry can compete using a differentiation strategy. Arenanet's product is very differentiated as evidenced by one of their design philosophies (you should always be happy to see another player in the open world). There is no kill stealing, node stealing, and events are more profitable with more players (more enemies, more loot bags, etc.). Additionally, skills and traits are specifically designed to be beneficial for others and not screw them over (there are comments from devs concerning rune of sanctuary where they discussed this). There are other core design philosophies that others can probably point out that support Anet's differentiation strategy.

    Of course they are competing. This doesn’t mean they are the same. I’m not sure you understand the words you’re using.

    ^^^ This

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭

    Couldn't help but read this title in my head with the voice of Dwight from The Office, lol.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    OP has left the Thread, as usual, enough (you)'s were gathered I guess.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think "this game is not like the other" and "this game competes with this other game" aren't the same thing. Sure there's going to be some competition and some overlap, but calling the games the same is pretty not true. I don't think there is going to be a problem regardless, once the rose tinted glasses effect wears off.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    @Vayne.8563
    @BlueJin.4127
    Its optional but thats the only thing left to do for players that are not into WvW/PvP where (most) people play for fun and not for the grind.
    Thats why farming maps are so populated and what most people do in gw2, a mind numbing farm.
    Thats why so many people burnout from playing gw2, its a constant grind for gold to convert it into gems, its not challenging, rewardful or fun.
    This game is in a vicious cycle, people get bored until a new map is released with more grind to get bored and wait for the next grind.
    Im a player who enjoys all kinds of content except for single player story mode content(there are plenty of single players for that).
    For me Gw2 lacks what wow offers, long term goals, challenging open world, meaningful PvE progression, open world PvP and competitive PvP and i can almost guarantee that at least that the reasons most people quit gw2 is among one of these topics and classic wow will drag a lot of those players.

    Dont get me wrong i really like gw2 but its turning into what retail WoW is now a grind for the sake of grind and you can already see players asking for a vanilla gw2 server.

    I don't think most players find the grind fun and I don't think most players actually grind. I have a guild full of people who don't grind but manage to get stuff. We do what's called incidental farming. It doesn't matter if it takes longer to get something because we've having fun. That's how the people I generally play with roll> We're not so goal driven. We're fun driven.

    Same here, but unfortunately thats what most people do, grind for skins and once they get it, they burnout because that what gw2 endgame offers and why you see so many people saying they dont know what to do, they are bored etc...
    And yes, its their fault they got bored but its also gw2 lack of fun and satisfying endgame, i know this because it happened to myself when i started playing gw2 and its the reason i took a break
    In vanilla i get the exact opposite feeling once i get a new item,while you can get frustrated at times when you lose a roll or the item didnt dropped after weeks of raiding, its so satisfying when you get what you wanted and this satisfaction is what keep most people playing the game in the long term.
    I play gw2 for a different reason, the combat is what keeps me playing despite class balance being a disaster and powercreep, it's fun.

    How do you know this? What most people do? Have you taken a poll. Grinders are more easily seen together doing the same activity. Guys like me bounce all over. How do you know how many of us there are? How do you know how many of them there are? It's just not that simple. From my personal annecdotal experience hard core farmers are like hard core anyone else. Very loud, very visible, post a lot, you can see them, but at the same time, they don't necessarily represent a majority. I have 400 people in this guild and I'm pretty sure only a tiny percent are farmers and grinders. I actually have more achievement point hounds in my guild than I do farmers or grinders. But most of us approach the game casually or play different.

    I won't grind the same stuff over and over again, but I'll play different characters through content to get them through and eventually I'll get enough of something to finish stuff. I won't grind out world complete, but I'll do a bit in a zone every time I pass through it, until it's mostly done then finish it off. There's no way you can say what most people do, because how could you ever know how big my demographic is?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.

    In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities.

    Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    I dont really understand why people say gw2 is great because you dont need to grind, but that is what most people do, just take a look on how populated are the farming maps : Istan pre-nerf, dragonfall, SW.
    In gw2 we dont grind for gear, we grind for skins, which is the same thing but more mind numbing and way less rewarding, you just need to faceroll mobs in PvE spamming auto attacks.

    WoW maybe doesnt compete with gw2 for the casual pve audience which are interested in open world PvE content and single story mode released every 3 months.
    But it competes for the hardcore Raiders, WvWers to some extent and casual and hardcore PvPers.
    Combat mechanics in gw2 are better, but the skill ceilling in wow(classic) is much higher because you need to have a knowledge of the game in general not only on classes, wow is way more complex game compared to gw2 PvE and PvP wise.
    WoW will not have updates but it's better not have updates than have bad ones.

    Wow has more content per update and more content released overall. I wouldn't call Wow's gear progression all that rewarding. It's a constant treadmill and soon people who can clear normal raids now will have this season's mythic raiding gear next season. Also, the way it's structured stratifies the community. It's hard to find people to raid with you or group with you from your own guild if you've fallen behind in gear level. As a wow refugee i can say it has a lot to learn from this game. The only thing that might make this game go dry is if people lose reasons to play. I.e. content dearth.

  • I will say this: initially you may like the vertical progression from WoW initially if you're new to it. You may, just like me, not realize you miss this game, but after coming back i'm realizing that this is a much better MMO. Wow actually plays a lot like a single player game outside of structured group activities. there's toxicity in both games in structured groups, but it's worse in WoW because of how asocial it is outside of groups and players aren't really forced to think of each other as assets in the open world. It bleeds into other content where players see each other as means to an end.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.

    In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities.

    Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.

    It's casual in just the same ways that wow is. And by the same token it's just as demanding as wow though. You now have to put a lot of time and effort in in order to get certain things you want. The major difference between wow(especially wow of old) and gw2 is that it's possible now, assuming one has the means, to shorten the way by legitimately(as in not going to third party gold selling sites) throwing money at the problem via gem purchases, conversions to gold, and then purchasing certain necessary items on the Black Lion Exchange.

    Much of this grinding depends on what part of the game you're invested in. GW2 is by no means monolithic- consisting of several game modes now. If you wish to be your best(read be included) in either high tier fractals, raiding, or in competitive modes(mostly WvW) then you end up chasing metas and those are dictated by the ever changing balancing and mechanics introductions made by ANet's development teams. New metas require new gearing even if it's only on the level of exotics(much of it demanding ascended and infused equipment) and this is a song and dance that's repeated as often as those metas change. Many new metas require armour and weapon stat combinations found only via grinding certain maps in order to craft them. And while it could be argued that yes, the community enforces the metas, when it comes to metas in general ANet still lays the egg first, so to speak.

    They know the community's temperament in regard to metas and still continue to develop the majority of their content with metas in mind(even if it's only the means to acquire the gear to meet them). What's more they've also backpedaled on their stances regarding the trinity and third party programmes which is no small thing because most raiding requires it and many raiders demand it and they(ANet) for whatever reason want a piece of that demographic.

    It's true that if all you ever want to do is face roll on open maps and collect your bags from meta events you shouldn't have to change much. If, however, you want something more beyond that limited vision of GW2 then your hand is indeed forced.

    So could we please not perpetuate this myth that there is no grinding required in GW2? At best it's only a half truth.

  • trixantea.1230trixantea.1230 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    "Competing with WoW" is a big expression because GW2 is nowhere close to WoW in matter of content release frequency and quality.
    "Trying to imitate WoW" is more appropriate to describe what's happening to this game.

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    Casual play (like open world) is not a limited version of GW2; it is the core of the game. High tier fractals and raids are the niche portions of GW2 and only a small percentage of players do them. That these two modes require grinding to get good gears is irrelevant since casual play is the heart of GW2’s design, and make up the vast majority of contents. Grinding gears for the vast majority of GW2 contents is simply an option for players who want to put in the time. This is not a half-truth. It is true for the vast majority of the game and the heart of its design.

    WoW is designed around vertical progression and is fundamentally different from GW2. In WoW, if players do not grind gears, they’re not locked out of only niche stuff; they’re locked out from experiencing the heart of the game’s design, which is based around grinding for better and better gears to do new contents.

    If you don’t grind for gears in WoW, you experience so little of the game because the game is designed around vertical progression. If you don’t grind for gears in GW2, you only miss out on niche modes because the vast majority of the game is designed around casual play that do not require grinded gears.

    ^^

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    >

    there is a key fundamental difference between wow and guild wars 2 that means it will never appeal to several significant segments of the market - blizzards monitory model is all about compelling the player to keeu up with the ever increasing power curve. If you fall behind the power curve your gameplay is impacted.

    Anet recognised this as a detrimental aspect of mmorpg and addressed it.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:> The difference is skin grind is 100% completely optional. Gear grind is required if you want to do content. I'd say that makes a world of difference. As long as I don't feel I have to grind to "catch up" it doesn't matter if grind exists in the game. I'm not a grinder, I just play a lot, but I play all different things all the time. Eventually I get everything I need, usually without grinding.

    Really, well I beg to disagree because every few months the balance teams to totally screws up or remakes a spec forcing you to grind out the gear to fix what they've broken or at the very least grind out the mats or gold to change the gear, weapons and accessories, etc to make you efficient as you once were. It's vertical progression cleverly disguised as horizontal. Not to mention the fact the balance team has leaned more and more towards trinity, soft today but what does tomorrow bring?
    Yes the mounts differ but they are still mounts, rendering most way-points irrelevant and fast travel just like WoW. Raids are raids regardless of how people try to make distinctively different and the armor isn't better stat wise but it does offer some perks as well as looks (ugly or not). GW2 raids includes gear you cannot get any other way which invokes the same old elitist class separation rewarding one style of player over others fostering the same special snowflake kitten WoW was founded on. As far as raids not locking you out of content, raids, the loot from it are still held away from those who don't like raiding.

    This may not be as similar to WoW as let's say ESO but the trend in the last 3 years has brought this far closer than what it was when it launched and anyone denying that is just turning a blind eye to reality!

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:> The difference is skin grind is 100% completely optional. Gear grind is required if you want to do content. I'd say that makes a world of difference. As long as I don't feel I have to grind to "catch up" it doesn't matter if grind exists in the game. I'm not a grinder, I just play a lot, but I play all different things all the time. Eventually I get everything I need, usually without grinding.

    Really, well I beg to disagree because every few months the balance teams to totally screws up or remakes a spec forcing you to grind out the gear to fix what they've broken or at the very least grind out the mats or gold to change the gear, weapons and accessories, etc to make you efficient as you once were. It's vertical progression cleverly disguised as horizontal. Not to mention the fact the balance team has leaned more and more towards trinity, soft today but what does tomorrow bring?
    Yes the mounts differ but they are still mounts, rendering most way-points irrelevant and fast travel just like WoW. Raids are raids regardless of how people try to make distinctively different and the armor isn't better stat wise but it does offer some perks as well as looks (ugly or not). GW2 raids includes gear you cannot get any other way which invokes the same old elitist class separation rewarding one style of player over others fostering the same special snowflake kitten WoW was founded on. As far as raids not locking you out of content, raids, the loot from it are still held away from those who don't like raiding.

    This may not be as similar to WoW as let's say ESO but the trend in the last 3 years has brought this far closer than what it was when it launched and anyone denying that is just turning a blind eye to reality!

    You can disagree all you want. But since the only thing full ascended gear would actually be required for is T4 Fractals (and even then it's not absolutely required) it's still a voluntary goal. I mean most of my character have easily farmed ascended trinkets, with some ascended weapons (many from collections). Most of my characters are running around in exotic armor, and they're doing fine in all the content. That just doesn't work on other games. Here technique is as important, if not more important than mere stats.

    Furthermore it's very cheap to respec ascended armor and weapons once you have them. So yeah, I'd have to disagree on this one.

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    >

    there is a key fundamental difference between wow and guild wars 2 that means it will never appeal to several significant segments of the market - blizzards monitory model is all about compelling the player to keeu up with the ever increasing power curve. If you fall behind the power curve your gameplay is impacted.

    Anet recognised this as a detrimental aspect of mmorpg and addressed it.

    Yes, they addressed it with core... but everything since HoT has been Grind Wars 2.

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138OK said:
    MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS.

    Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS.

    Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back.

    Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138OK said:
    MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

    Yes, it does. For example? they could compete because the couple looking for Italian good night change their mind when they see the better pricing of Chinese food.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138OK said:
    MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

    Yes, it does. For example? they could compete because the couple looking for Italian good night change their mind when they see the better pricing of Chinese food.

    No, I could build two restaurants right beside each other that wouldn't compete because they serve two different markets. That's not debatable. It's a true fact. NOT ALL things compete, even if they are similar things.

    That's why GW2 is here ... it serves a specific market. There is some overlap with what it does with other MMO's but it does it in a way that appeals to a specific market that was underserved.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS.

    Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back.

    Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138OK said:
    MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

    Yes, it does. For example? they could compete because the couple looking for Italian good night change their mind when they see the better pricing of Chinese food.

    No, I could build two restaurants right beside each other that wouldn't compete because they serve two different markets. That's not debatable. It's a true fact.

    What happens when someone meets the criteria for both markets? They have to choose. Oh, and I didn’t know facts could be anything but true.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS.

    Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back.

    Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138OK said:
    MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

    Yes, it does. For example? they could compete because the couple looking for Italian good night change their mind when they see the better pricing of Chinese food.

    No, I could build two restaurants right beside each other that wouldn't compete because they serve two different markets. That's not debatable. It's a true fact.

    What happens when someone meets the criteria for both markets? They have to choose. Oh, and I didn’t know facts could be anything but true.

    What about it? Then those people make a choice. That doesn't make what I said any less true. ... and yes, the way you are portraying yourself here ... it seems that you could be one of those people that dispute facts.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS.

    Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back.

    Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138OK said:
    MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

    Yes, it does. For example? they could compete because the couple looking for Italian good night change their mind when they see the better pricing of Chinese food.

    No, I could build two restaurants right beside each other that wouldn't compete because they serve two different markets. That's not debatable. It's a true fact.

    What happens when someone meets the criteria for both markets? They have to choose. Oh, and I didn’t know facts could be anything but true.

    What about it? Then those people make a choice. That doesn't make what I said any less true. ... and yes, the way you are portraying yourself here ... it seems that you could be one of those people that dispute facts.

    The person might like both Italian and Chinese food. In which case, the restaurants have to compete for him. Just like most MMO gamers aren’t looking for an action MMO or a strategic MMO, they’re just looking for a (good) MMO. Most people here came from WoW. Yes, they are competing.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    The person might like both Italian and Chinese food. In which case, the restaurants have to compete for him. Just like most MMO gamers aren’t looking for an action MMO or a strategic MMO, they’re just looking for a (good) MMO. Most people here came from WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    Again, you are not listening to what I'm telling you ... not all restaurants compete just because they are restaurants. That's not even an exclusive example. It's the same with any consumer good ... and it's the same with MMO's ... they don't all compete just because they are MMO's ... EVEN if you want to narrow your field with qualifiers like 'action' or 'strategic'. There are hundreds of examples you can think of to illustrate this.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

    Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

    I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

    No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

    Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

    They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

    I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

    No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

    LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS.

    Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back.

    Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138OK said:
    MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

    Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

    Yes, it does. For example? they could compete because the couple looking for Italian good night change their mind when they see the better pricing of Chinese food.

    No, I could build two restaurants right beside each other that wouldn't compete because they serve two different markets. That's not debatable. It's a true fact.

    What happens when someone meets the criteria for both markets? They have to choose. Oh, and I didn’t know facts could be anything but true.

    over time a particular customer will have a preference for 1 type of restaurant over another, but may dabble in the alternate for a change. If I want to play the gear = power game I will dabble in wow, but ultimately I don't want gear to determine my gameplay options so I prefer gw2. Some prefer the former.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    The person might like both Italian and Chinese food. In which case, the restaurants have to compete for him. Just like most MMO gamers aren’t looking for an action MMO or a strategic MMO, they’re just looking for a (good) MMO. Most people here came from WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    Again, you are not listening to what I'm telling you ... not all restaurants compete just because they are restaurants. That's not even an exclusive example. It's the same with any consumer good ... and it's the same with MMO's ... they don't all compete just because they are MMO's.

    Yes, they do compete just because they are MMOs.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    The person might like both Italian and Chinese food. In which case, the restaurants have to compete for him. Just like most MMO gamers aren’t looking for an action MMO or a strategic MMO, they’re just looking for a (good) MMO. Most people here came from WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    Again, you are not listening to what I'm telling you ... not all restaurants compete just because they are restaurants. That's not even an exclusive example. It's the same with any consumer good ... and it's the same with MMO's ... they don't all compete just because they are MMO's.

    Yes, they do compete just because they are MMOs.

    If you are going to generalise then you would be as well saying all types of game compete for your time. But thus is about player type versus gameplay on offer, and gw2 and wow have different target audiences in mind.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    The person might like both Italian and Chinese food. In which case, the restaurants have to compete for him. Just like most MMO gamers aren’t looking for an action MMO or a strategic MMO, they’re just looking for a (good) MMO. Most people here came from WoW. Yes, they are competing.

    Again, you are not listening to what I'm telling you ... not all restaurants compete just because they are restaurants. That's not even an exclusive example. It's the same with any consumer good ... and it's the same with MMO's ... they don't all compete just because they are MMO's.

    Yes, they do compete just because they are MMOs.

    No, that's absolutely wrong. There are way more factors that determine if something competes within an industry. It's not enough to simply say everything in a specific industry competes because they are all in an industry. There are hundreds of example of this and the fact you don't think of a single one to convince yourself just indicates that you are being stubborn and argumentative.

    You're being way to general ... based on your criteria, I could claim that ANYTHING that takes my time to do competes with GW2.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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