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Your DPS is Trash


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@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@"Zero.6082" said:I am sorry we can’t all be pros....

Then don't join the groups that ask for those, why is that so hard to understand? Why are you trying to force your ideology that players should play with you, or others like you? And those that don't want to you call them toxic? Who is name calling and blaming? Look at the mirror. If you aren't a "pro", go join others who aren't "pro", you can join the "pro" when you are also a "pro". It's not very hard to understand isn't it?

But then he can never complete the extremely difficult encounters in gw2 raiding :D :D :D

Every boss is challenge mode if you're the one that is challenged. Just look at his posts. Easy to get the picture.

Who taught pros? How do you become a pro? Can a pro play with me if they want? Can pros teach? I guess I am lost on the teacher aspect of this statement but he took me out of context. How do I know when I am a pro. What is your measure of pro. When can I join the pros? If I only join those who aren’t pros, how do we learn and become pros? How does any of this have to do with my point of meters being used as ways of toxic? Those are all subjective questions....Maybe you can answer the question since he can’t how can you determine the toxicity of a player using a dps meter. If it is impossible to prove that, isn’t it an ideology? Does that mean he is using his ideology to weed out great people who are just trying because, his ideology claims it’s toxic and he is allowed to remove toxic people? How is that not a toxic ideology?

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I am also having fun with this I am learning a lot about raids and stuff. Might get meter.... and I don’t hold any bad feelings towards anyone... I just have a lot of questions. And it fills the void when I am waiting on friends to decide what they want for dinner.... I said in a previous post that I get maybe get 6 hours a week of gw2 if lucky (shout out busy engineer life) ... I just know that I was in two guilds 1 hard core (like most of the pros in the thread) and the other chill.... it’s fascinating the evolution.... the hard core one disband but the chilled one is still going strong. Maybe that is now my style. I just would like my chill game to stay chill... maybe that’s selfish ... but I pugged a t 4 fractal and now I have a new thing to worry about. But I guess even now when I pug a group.., I gotta watch my back >.>

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@Zero.6082 said:I am also having fun with this I am learning a lot about raids and stuff. Might get meter.... and I don’t hold any bad feelings towards anyone... I just have a lot of questions. And it fills the void when I am waiting on friends to decide what they want for dinner.... I said in a previous post that I get maybe get 6 hours a week of gw2 if lucky (shout out busy engineer life) ... I just know that I was in two guilds 1 hard core (like most of the pros in the thread) and the other chill.... it’s fascinating the evolution.... the hard core one disband but the chilled one is still going strong. Maybe that is now my style. I just would like my chill game to stay chill... maybe that’s selfish ... but I pugged a t 4 fractal and now I have a new thing to worry about. But I guess even now when I pug a group.., I gotta watch my back >.>

Yea you will have to watch your back as much as you did before.

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@"Mordayn.6198" said:So I'm of 2 minds about DPS meters. I personally like the idea of being able to see my DPS compared to others in group so i can improve my game but a segment of the Raid community uses it purely at the end of an engagement to chastise or criticize other players. It's not healthy for the game mode in general to use it that way and honestly shouldn't be allowed. I've seen particular players, not naming names, not even playing dps but at the end of an engagement will call out people for DPS that's not even that low at the end of a fight and in some cases even kick based on that. These players don't take into account dps lost doing mechanics, dps lost reviving people etc. They just look at the overall dps readout at the end of the fight and use numbers to chastise other players. It's honestly about as toxic as you can be using an external tool that purely looks at dps output and doesn't show any kind of mechanic competence for the actual fight. It's a growing problem and toxic to the mode that turns a lot of people away from raiding. Giving constructive criticism is fine. Help players understand what about their build they can improve but don't be toxic. I've seen people at the end of every pull call out dps numbers nearly every pull and not think about anything other than numbers. I don't think allowing this kind of toxicity is healthy for the game in the long run because it just leads to less people raiding overall.

What I'm reading is "idiots are idiots, and that's a problem". Not sure how you came to the conclusion that dps meters are a problem; and I couldn't find any conclusive train of thought in your post either :/

Idiots on both sides are a problem; whether they're harrassing other players with data they themselves don't understand what to do with, or on the other side players failing the most basic mechanics of spamming 1 and F.

You guys are looking at a symptom, not the root cause.

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@Zero.6082 said:Dodging the question again and taking me out of context...

Talking about dodging questions, you failed to answer the questions provided in the part you quoted.

he has claimed people are automatically toxic by using the meter as weapon to measure people.

Who did this? Measuring other people doesn't make you toxic. Getting objective data doesn't make anyone toxic.

There could be many factors why people may not make their number....

And? Who really cares and why should they? It's all in the questions that you dodged.

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Honestly the easiest way you can assess whether or not you're being carried is ask yourself the hypothetical "If this squad was comprised of 10 of me would we still kill?" Ie. Everyone got hit by mechanics the same number of times (maybe not all at the same time), and pulled the same numbers would the boss still die?

While I love dpsmeters I fully agree on that statment. Only if a dps does not fullfill the enrage timers or the mechanics needs it can be considered as a problem. There are reasons why Anet designed the enragetimers to be irrelevant for skilled players but very relevant for mediocre play. That's imho quite good design.

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@"Zero.6082" said:-Snip-

After reading through the recent comments in this thread the entire discussion between you and x amount of other posters here can basically be boiled down to you having a severe, SEVERE, lack of understanding how different mentalities work in whatever kind of environment.

Everything you said about being free to play how you want is 100% true. As long as you play solo. You are free to play how you want, that is until you meet up with other players and attempt team-oriented content. Then it comes down to what the group mentality is.

Group mentality = chill? Then just relax, sit back a bit and clear the content on the pace that is comfortable for you and your party/squad members. Group composition and meta set-ups don't really matter here, as long as you clear the content even if it is at a slower pace.

Group mentality = exp? Then make sure you are up for it because these groups will probably go with meta compositions and are there to clear content quickly and efficiently.

Both mentalities are viable and are not toxic at the core. It's when the two different mentalities collide that the problems occur because they are very hard to mix. You want some "Double-Longbow-Dragonhunter coming in with Doom sigils on his weapons so every time he weapon swaps he does a whopping 3 stacks of poison in full nomad gear" joining your exp party? That idea is not gonna fly buddy. I hope you understand why.

I'm curious about this as well: Do you understand that there are also people out there that get satisfaction and joy out of doing something in the most efficient way? It's not even toxic, I'm in statics like this and even then the atmosphere is really laid back and chill but because the skill level is high enough we can still clear quickly and efficiently. I mean there's nothing wrong with being good at something and enjoying it as well.

P.s. Also you maybe wanna look into your "conspiracy-idea-kinda" rants because some are just...just no...just really no...

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Cameron.6450 said:Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

If the team is looking for a quarterback with x credentials they should keep you even if you arent even playing quarterback or have said credentials?

I wouldn’t say so in a recreational sport for fun. My sister plays in a work football league...she never played football professionally in her life and she asked to be quarterback..... they said sure and she does ok.... but that is the point .... it’s a game not a profession.... I expect nothing less from Payton Manning who gets paid.... but a for fun game.... I really feel bad if you are all expecting pro level with compensation..... which is why I don’t raid... I don’t have time to be professional for you for free...but now we all have to assume that the only way to raid is at the professional level. Is that really true? And if so I am glad you all found a hobby but it’s a hobby.

And that's one example you like to take.There are other groups that like to be more competitive, efficient, whatever you want to call it, and they have fun playing that way, pushing themselves, improving.People find fun in different approaches.

Neither approach is wrong, it's just about finding a group of like minded players who have similar expectations about the Raiding group to play together.

Want to have that relaxed group you took as example? Make it! Nothing is stopping you, nobody is forcing you to play a certain way, nobody is expecting you to pull certain DPS or use a DPS meter, unless you choose to join a group that has different expectations than you, in which case, you are the problem should you join such a group.

How is this an issue that needs to be discussed going in circles for page after page?

If you want to Raid in a certain environment, be it casual, semi casual, hardcore, speedrunning, look for groups/players that share that mindset and join/make that group and go have a blast Raiding the way you want to Raid.

Neither a super hardcore speedrunner who has fun by maximising efficiency joining a super casual Raid group, nor a super casual who has fun just messing around with things that might not be very effective joining a hardcore speedrunning group is going to have a good time.

What is not reasonable is to then feel entitled to be and that group and to call other people toxic or accuse them of gatekeeping just because your goals don't align.Everybody is free to make their own raid group and to have fun with the content in their own way.

If you don't want to put in the effort to make or find such a group (and granted, finding 9 like minded players is not easy, no matter how you like to play), you don't have the right to complain about existing groups with a different mindset, or about them excluding you or expecting a certain performance from you.

The reason you are not raiding is because you don't want to put the effort in to find like minded people and to get going, which is fine.But stop putting that responsibility to make that perfect environment for you to play in onto other players for whom a different raiding environment is fun, or telling them that their way is wrong and that they can't have fun that way.

And as plenty have said in this thread, DPS Meters have nothing to do all all with this conflict between players with different expectations and skill levels, that was and will always be there, DPS Meter or not.All they do is allow people to diagnose the issues a group might have accurately.Either don't be the issue, or join a group where lack of performance isn't an issue. Problem solved.

/E:Guess I could have read the last page/post above me and saved myself writing this, but oh well.

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@dodgerrule.8739 said:These tools should not exist in game for anything outside of raids. They just end up being used to persecute non elite players.

Where have you gotten into contact with dps meters outside of challenging content like raids or ambitious fractal groups?From time to time there's a clown in the open world bragging about numbers but those are the same who show off with fake chat codes or anything related. Nobody takes them seriously and it's rather awkward to babble around in the open world so you can be assured that you make a fool of yourself because everyone knows that you don't need high numbers out there.

One of the current main ones outright states it is bannable to use the tool

There is only one main one at the moment. ArcDPS and it is not bannable to use the tool. On the contrary the actual configuration of the tool is in line with Anet's TOS. So, please don't spread nonsense, ty.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@dodgerrule.8739 said:These tools should not exist in game for anything outside of raids. They just end up being used to persecute non elite players.

Where have you gotten into contact with dps meters outside of challenging content like raids or ambitious fractal groups?From time to time there's a clown in the open world bragging about numbers but those are the same who show off with fake chat codes or anything related. Nobody takes them seriously and it's rather awkward to babble around in the open world so you can be assured that you make a fool of yourself because everyone knows that you don't need high numbers out there.

One of the current main ones outright states it is bannable to use the tool

There is only one main one at the moment. ArcDPS and it is not bannable to use the tool. On the contrary the actual configuration of the tool is in line with Anet's TOS. So, please don't spread nonsense, ty.

It’s not me spreading nonsense when they specifically state it can on their site. If you look it States it. In fractals of even tier 2 people comment about dps even when they think they know mechanics but ignore them completely.

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@dodgerrule.8739 said:It’s not me spreading nonsense when they specifically state it can on their site. If you look it States it. In fractals of even tier 2 people comment about dps even when they think they know mechanics but ignore them completely.

Read again and then try to understand what it means because you definitely have not! ArcDPS is within this community for years now and nobody was, is or will be getting banned when using it unless the developer will change the tool so that's not longer in line with the TOS. And even then it's more than doubtful that Anet bans all the users immediately without a warning. We are way too many so they would inform us first. It seems that you have almost zero knowledge and you are not interested in facts. So again, stop spreading untrue things or conspiracy theories.If people talk about DPS in T2 fractals there's literally no problem with it either. Let them talk. That's a non-issue.

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@dodgerrule.8739 said:

@dodgerrule.8739 said:These tools should not exist in game for anything outside of raids. They just end up being used to persecute non elite players.

Where have you gotten into contact with dps meters outside of challenging content like raids or ambitious fractal groups?From time to time there's a clown in the open world bragging about numbers but those are the same who show off with fake chat codes or anything related. Nobody takes them seriously and it's rather awkward to babble around in the open world so you can be assured that you make a fool of yourself because everyone knows that you don't need high numbers out there.

One of the current main ones outright states it is bannable to use the tool

There is only one main one at the moment. ArcDPS and it is not bannable to use the tool. On the contrary the actual configuration of the tool is in line with Anet's TOS. So, please don't spread nonsense, ty.

It’s not me spreading nonsense when they specifically state it can on their site. If you look it States it. In fractals of even tier 2 people comment about dps even when they think they know mechanics but ignore them completely.

It is you spreading nonsense since you did not even bother to go 1 page back, where I linked to IWN and his summary of qutes on this issues from developers. Let me help your ignorance though:

ArenaNet authorizes the use and development of 3rd Party tools under the banner of a "DPS Meter". "DPS Meters" is defined as the collection and processing of combat related data in order to develop a statistical and visual representation of that data. This combat data maybe collected from anyone inside of your immediate social group. Social groups are defined as including the player character, and current party and/or squad.

Combat data does not include current entity status, including current Buffs/Debuffs/Health/Stats/Location or any other data that is not generated due to the usage of skills or impact on player characters due to skill usage (by the PC/s or an outside source).

The collection and processing of data in the client must be limited to the scope of the "DPS meter" and should not exceed it. Visualization of this data must also limited to the scope of the "DPS Meter" which includes visualizations, logging, and processing/visualization of logging.

  • Chris Cleary in 2017

deltaconnected, the individual behind arcdps, has been complying with the developers demands and is keeping his addon in compliance with current requirements setup by the devs.

What you are refering to is a DISCLAIMER at the top of the page. You might want to read up what those are good for and why people put them.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

This is what personal data is:US:

Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

EU:

Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

We'll the original mission statement was play how you want. That doesn't mean play together without a care on how you play. Because that would infringe on the right of people who want to people with good performance.

Their are lots of way to practice without dpsmeters being an issue.

So I'll ask again why does your right to play how you want supersede other people's right to play how they want?

Play how you want just don’t use the tool to bludgeon people.
I wanted to change my build to be what i thought was effective.
I followed their commands and the got ridiculed for following meta what I am assuming most of you wanted.... so your right you want to dictate how I play and then make fun of me of how I play it..... that seems much better?

THIS is /exactly/ what a dps meter is great for. Not just good but great. Are these runes better than those? Is substituting this skill going to actually affect my rotation and numbers? What if I KNOW I have to dodge 30 seconds into a fight and that conflicts with my rotation, so how about if I change my rotation to account for that dodge. Will it work? What if I know we are doing a meme all rangers group on friday, let me experiment with my soulbeast taking a spirit, how much exactly will that affect my dps?

All those questions and more are answered, by using a dps meter. No one else has to see your experiments, just go to the golem and smack it around. Want to know your dps without boons? Give it a go. You do not need a tag or a group. Just form a raid group by yourself and enter.

Incidently, this is also how you can cement your rotation without anyone looking over your shoulder, so to speak. Learning a new class? Build? Arcdps is SOSOSO worth getting just for yourself. Also, as mentioned, it does show the truth--were you really that low on dps? Was the guy whispering all that high? And even though I never ever mention using it in open world, sometimes it is fun to see just how much higher than everyone else you can get.

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DW guys, the people who use arc dps will gradually quit anyway once erp is done. Likewise for the people who spend easily 100hrs+/class grinding and finding new builds for us to use in raids and fractals after every big balance patch, so people will never have to worry what they run is meta or good anymore. No meta builds for raids => no meta comp => way harder for below avg players to do raids => a giant outcry that raids are to hard with no actual raiders defending raids difficulty => anet nerfing raids like they nerfed HoT => People will be able to raids like they do world bosses by spamming 1 and ignoring mechanics => they're happy because they are deluded they think they're not garbage players because they managed to kill a "raid" (w7 is a clear example of how hard they nerfing raids already :/ )

Sadly this isn't a joke or sarcasm, but feels like raids will be down by roughly 75-80% of the decent and better pugs by the end of 2019.

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@Zero.6082 said:

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

It doesnt take data from your computer. It takes data from anet servers. They dont belong to you. We can see your actions. We can see how much percent your actions do. We know how much hp does the boss have -> we know your dps. Nothing that violated your privacy. It is like going into a restaurant dressed as a nun and take it as violation of your orivacy that customers know you are christian.

If you are doing 22k either you are not having best gear or you are not playing on top level. But 22k will not be a problem. We are using arcdps to see if someone is doing 7k instead of 26k.

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There needs to be an option to set your own appearance to "generic models" for others. People shouldn't be able to judge me based on my fashion sense.It is a private thing and my personal data. But they better not ban me from in-game fashion contests.

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fact nr. 1: there are different mentalitys when it comes to gaming. some people chill and have fun. some are going tryhard and its fun for them. no one has any right to tell the other one "how to play" and "whats fun". that goes both ways. if you join any group, be it tryhards or casuals or in between, you have to abide by the rules or make sure you know what the group wants, else it creates a bad atmosphere and that is your own fault...or the groups if they didn't advertise the way they want to play or did inform you on joining.

fact nr. 2: if you are not experienced with the game you have no way at all which tells you how good you really are if you do not use a dps meter. really experienced players, and those are usually which play meta, do speedrunning or other stuff in that direction have a way better perception of the game then someone which is unexperienced and therefore can usually tell if someone is bad.dps meter & encounter logs are a great tool to see whats going wrong and therefore help unexperienced players way more then already experienced ones. the great problem here is: most people are so unexperienced, that they can't analyze it and therefore its useless to them.just because you solo killed that encounter after your group wiped and you stood there kiting for 20 min doesn't make that a good performance. do you think your group wants to roleplay as dead people on the ground for 20 min?

fact nr. 3: the damage difference in gw2 between a build which is tailored to a groupsetup or even in a solo setup where you support yourself with boons & do damage at the same time with a specific strategy at some encounter is HUGE. examples:

TOP players: doing 25k dps on vg midstrat. doing 17k dps on vg with the pug strat.normal players: not able to do vg midstrat, they wipe. pugstrat: 13k dps on vg.unexperienced players which never did any rotation on golem or any raid: 4k dps.

high level fractals: players phaseing bosses in 8 - 15 seconds, taking a mere minute or less to kill it VS. players taking 5 - 8 mins to kill a boss without wiping.low level fractals: a solo player bursting down a boss in ~30 seconds VS unexperienced unorganized groups taking 8 min to kill something.

open world events where boons now get thrown arround like nothing: people doing 25k - 15k dps vs people doing barely 1k.

...if you really think "you are just a bit worse then the other dude" since you are using skills on cooldown and you dodge every mechanic, then you are either delusional or simply not experienced at all with the guild wars 2 build and combat system.the difference on a golem between a 100% skillrotation and missing a few seconds, cancelling attacks, doing too many autos in between is doing 33k dps vs doing 25k dps.thats with the same gear, the same traits and nearly the same rotation. now go in with a build which is not tailored to a group, some random stats mixed in because that sounds good, random rune because this one gives me +5k health so great and a totally random skill rotation or just pressing stuff on cooldown. traits for survivability.suddenly you are at 5k dps with FULL BOONS. no boons...1k.

and now that you know all of that ask yourself: why do you think that the community is rather strict when it comes to teamcontent and prefers a meta which defines WHO takes WHICH position within the group and who brings the boons so my build works 100%. stuff like, how much precision do i need to cap crit chance at 100% with a druid and his buff spotter & warrior banners in mind or do i need to take precision food because we are missing spotter and that gives me the same amount of precision to cap critchance.

fun fact: we had a warrior build once which was at 97% critchance...while people tested they found out that the DPS difference from this build played by a top player was already 2k - 3k opposed to when they optimised the build to 100% critchance.what would a less skilled player would make out of that build. what do you think happens when you do not "abide" by the meta and change your comp, without changing numbers on your gear.

...differences in guild wars 2 are so fucking huge and thats something most of the players do not realize at all, simply because they never bothered with anything related to combat.

with dps meters you start realizing that and you start asking yourself: why am i so bad compared to other players or why are those other player so "bad". can i help them somehow with tips.

and yes, you will always have black sheeps which flame arround. just ignore them....but never forget: maybe this player has a point, even if he is not really nice about it.

this whole textwall is not to categorize players, talk shit about unexperienced ones or whatever you want to read into it. its simply facts. take whatever you want from it. however you want to "perform", if you even want to, is up to you. BUT have always in mind: different players play differnt styles and the GW2 system has HUGE numerical gaps between the different groups. make sure you join in with likeminded people.

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