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What I LOVED; What I HATED in Season 4. [story thingies]


Michram.6853

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Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

the team is very creative when they want, and without doubt, the joko scene was by far one the best dialogue-cinematic i had seen on any game. (and I'm an old gamer I'm 37 years old). no single scene of consecrated titles like Dragon Age Inquisition (for exemple) reaches the height of that.

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

the team is very creative when they want, and without doubt, the joko scene was by far one the best dialogue-cinematic i had seen on any game. (and I'm an old gamer I'm 37 years old). no single scene of titles consecrated as Dragon Age Inquisition reaches the height of that.

The dialogue cinematic was outstanding. I'm unable to think of a better cutscene in the game nor a dialogue which encapsulated the moment so well. Whilst I am sure they are, they should look back with pride on that monologue, even though it set up something which led to nothing

Sadly, they threw the entire thing under a bus with what happened next in what was probably one of the worst and stupidly thought out moments in the entire GW history (outside of the LS1 fiasco). Whilst the rest of the episode was an unfortunate mess, the fight and the cutscene up until his demise was an absolute highlight. I am unsurprised the devs admitted regret for his death and its handling given the wider negative feedback across all their feedback platforms. Whilst his ill thought out, illogical and cheesy death scene gave some a chuckle, I have little doubt it was the least popular segment in the season.

It simply baffles me that such high quality and such abominable quality (ie almost everything leading up to the final instance) can co-exist in a single, extremely short episode.

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@"Kossage.9072" said:

"a lot of great analysis"

Thank you for the post, I agree with most of it, especially the first paragraph. I would add to that paragraph that the one thing that didn't work, Aurene's resurrection, was written during a heart breaking event for the studio.

It is difficult to recommend a different approach to her resurrection without knowing what they intended with her death. Her death and journey through the dragon afterlife may end up being an important plot point. Something obviously happened, she is not the same dragon. If so, then they couldn't have had the PC accompany her without giving significant information about future plot. If their only intent was showing the NPCs dealing with the prospect of her death, then Imo, it didn't need to happen or we needed to see a much broader range of reactions that included all the stages of grief with some NPCs still working the problem. They would have also needed to take the PC narrator more seriously, we weren't going to buy Aurene's death as the death of Tyria and we would project that disbelief onto the NPC characters. Unless they were shown to be acting realistically and with great dimension, they would instead appear extra incompetent and one dimensional. Which is what happened.

I would have used the requiems to reinforce the mystery of Schrodinger's dragon. Have some characters believe she can be saved, remove the branding and the spike but not get any reaction. Some characters could struggle to decipher inconclusive readings from the Asuran magitech. There are many approaches but the overall intent would be to ressonate with the PC narrator's disbelief and not force it into submission. Open the next episode with Caithe and the Commander beside Aurene. Caithe is forcing the bond to reignite, bargaining with fate, offering herself in exchange for Aurene. Using a combination of Joko's magic and her bond with Caithe as an anchor, Aurene resurrects. Aurene doesn't understand her power of resurrection and draws too much life force from Caithe, converting her entirely into crystal. Caithe could stay in this form until the end of the episode. Aurene would return to her after defeating Kralk and with her new abilities, return Caithe to normal. If the crystalization happened slowly enough, Aurene could recover enough to implore the Commander to use their dragon magic to sever the bond, leaving Caithe incapacitated but with only crystal blooms.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

yes, that scene is awesome. It was so great, I pushed another char through lw3 and lw4 to that point just to enjoy it again. I loved it. Everyone I talked to loves it. It is one of the great moments in the game.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

yes, that scene is awesome. It was so great, I pushed another char through lw3 and lw4 to that point just to enjoy it again. I loved it. Everyone I talked to loves it. It is one of the great moments in the game.

I didn't particularly find that episode bad. In fact, I quite enjoyed a lot of it. Gorrik's trial was fairly entertaining to me. The scene with the plague guys coming off the boat that was the first instance. Using the servered arm in the second instance was a hoot. There's a lot in that instance and I've played it many times. I'd have played it a lot anyway because I do the story on many characters each time, but this particularly story had a lot of depth, at least in regards to mechanics. Getting all the armies across through a smaller portal is a pretty fun concept to me. Using the arm was pretty fun. The skills are varied and it changed up the game considerably. The open world stuff was par for the course. I didn't have problems with most of the hearts in that area, and I didn't have problems so much with the zone. I love the roller beetle and that whole story arc, so yeah, I didn't have the issues with the chapter leading up to that. Mind you I was able to buy into the whole scarab plague storyline.

Part of the problem was the early bugs in the instance that drove people crazy, and that set the tone I think for what was to come later, but I thought they story was fine for what it was. Obviously after the more serious overtones of the Balhazar fight, it was supposed to be lighter in tone. In Guild Wars 1, Joko stuff was lighter in tone as well, which is probably why I didn't mind it.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

yes, that scene is awesome. It was so great, I pushed another char through lw3 and lw4 to that point just to enjoy it again. I loved it. Everyone I talked to loves it. It is one of the great moments in the game.

I didn't particularly find that episode bad. In fact, I quite enjoyed a lot of it. Gorrik's trial was fairly entertaining to me. The scene with the plague guys coming off the boat that was the first instance. Using the servered arm in the second instance was a hoot. There's a lot in that instance and I've played it many times. I'd have played it a lot anyway because I do the story on many characters each time, but this particularly story had a lot of depth, at least in regards to mechanics. Getting all the armies across through a smaller portal is a pretty fun concept to me. Using the arm was pretty fun. The skills are varied and it changed up the game considerably. The open world stuff was par for the course. I didn't have problems with most of the hearts in that area, and I didn't have problems so much with the zone. I love the roller beetle and that whole story arc, so yeah, I didn't have the issues with the chapter leading up to that. Mind you I was able to buy into the whole scarab plague storyline.

Part of the problem was the early bugs in the instance that drove people crazy, and that set the tone I think for what was to come later, but I thought they story was fine for what it was. Obviously after the more serious overtones of the Balhazar fight, it was supposed to be lighter in tone. In Guild Wars 1, Joko stuff was lighter in tone as well, which is probably why I didn't mind it.

no, it was not the bugs. I am prepared to see bugs, if I rush into an episode on patch day.

As I said earlier: story great. I enjoyed it very much. Hearts never give me any problems. But the map is so freaking BORING and GRIND-Y that I was fed up with it pretty quickly and very thoroughly. But oh no! You want the bug? do it over and over and over and over and... gaaaaaaaaaaah. And then Skyscale forced me to grind it AGAIN. At least the vision part was quick and rather painless...

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  • 3 weeks later...

dislikesI think for gw1 veterans, who have waited for years for joko's return, his ending was very dissapointing.I did not like any of the major deaths this season (joko, aurene, blish).

My opinion on ZafirahI dont like Zafirah, bc she brings nothing new to the story. The balthazar arc in Pof was just really bad, and introducting this character is not fixing anything of that mess (that should be fixed). My GW1 god was Balthazar and I really feel salty about his story arc. And Zafirah is reminding me everytime of that story :(.

Likes:I liked the magic areas from a different space and time. I really liked canach and blish. I liked the braham story bits. I was happy that marjory and kasmeer were not part of the story bc i dont like the new Dragonswatch.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

please, it went from insert animal sounds here to fluent human language. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous

Don't give me "But muh magic" the plot wasn't very well written IMHO

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@TheBravery.9615 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

please, it went from
insert animal sounds here
to fluent human language. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous

Don't give me "But muh magic" the plot wasn't very well written IMHO

You mean she couldn't have learned to talk from being psyhically linked to Caithe? I think that there's no muh magic about it. There's a mechanism you're deciding to ignore. You may not like it, but I had no problem at all with her talking after the events that lead up to it.

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@TheBravery.9615 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

please, it went from
insert animal sounds here
to fluent human language. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous

Don't give me "But muh magic" the plot wasn't very well written IMHO

They did admit they rushed her speaking for the sake of that flight instance, but it makes sense all the same.

Glint learned to speak by reading the minds of those near her. Aurene's been connected to the Commander's mind tentatively since Season 3 Heart of Thorns, and she directly linked herself to Caithe in the first instance we hear undertones of her voice. It's established lore from the personal story that the Elder Dragons learn what their minions know. Caithe is Aurene's minion now, so Aurene knows what Caithe knows. And that includes how to speak.

This is the one thing in the plot that was perfectly established by lore for years before the revelation and is in fact, not contradictory.

I'm not saying the overall plot was well written. Gods know anyone who frequents the forum will know I pick it apart at the first go. But Aurene speaking makes perfect sense in the lore. If anything, she should have begun speaking sooner due to her connection to the Commander (and if ArenaNet had not restricted themselves to 6 episodes, but instead did 9 as both Season 3 and Season 4 truly required to get the full scale of the plot exposed and evolved, I'm sure it would have happened that way).

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

I think it's just the way they decided to make Aurene speak. I myself feel it was very forced. It's as if they didn't think of it for the whole PoF and LWS4 and someone reminded them at the very last moment.

I love the idea of all 3 crystal dragons speaking to us, really. I just don't think this way was the best we could get. When we met Vlast, he already had the ability to talk, and that actually did not surprise me, since there is a sense of continuity after Glint.

As for Aurene. I don't think it's as believable for Aurene to speak.

Joko final scene. For me, it not only hurt Joko but also Aurene's character. From this very moment I no longer treated her as this scion of Glint and sister of Vlast but a savage animal - then, her suddenly speaking didn't bother me.This might sound like a hyperbole but the Joko Finale scene actually lowered a lot of my enjoyment of the whole LW experience from then on. Even though there were amazing moments.

Aurene speaking isn't cheesy od weird itself. It's just the setting she was given made it less believable. That might be the case, or maybe I'm just going to deep. But I really think that for many people this moment was a big turn off which flattened both Joko and Aurene.

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@Arden.7480 said:Joko's speech didn't have any sense.

Just to save the rest of the thread from another wall of text, I'll stick with this point.

I thought Joko's speech was one of the best parts of the season. I myself was beginning to get a little frustrated with where the Commander was going, as the big dragon-killing story achievements were steadily being portrayed as an unbalancing and unsustainable course of action. The Commander (and everyone else, really) didn't know what to do with the Elder Dragons outside of killing them or beating them back into a coma, and just kept doing the only thing we knew how to do. I don't think Joko really had a long term solution for the dragon situation either, but I thought he had a valid point when it came down to stopping the Commander from just doing the same Commandery thing until the world blew up.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:Joko's speech didn't have any sense.

Just to save the rest of the thread from another wall of text, I'll stick with this point.

I thought Joko's speech was one of the best parts of the season. I myself was beginning to get a little frustrated with where the Commander was going, as the big dragon-killing story achievements were steadily being portrayed as an unbalancing and unsustainable course of action. The Commander (and everyone else, really) didn't know what to do with the Elder Dragons outside of killing them or beating them back into a coma, and just kept doing the only thing we knew how to do. I don't think Joko really had a long term solution for the dragon situation either, but I thought he had a valid point when it came down to stopping the Commander from just doing the same Commandery thing until the world blew up.

I have a reasons to believe his "majestic, great, wow" speech didn't make sense, unless they wanted to make Joko such a hypocrite.

I believe they wanted to make our minds twist, but failed completely with Aurene.

They call me a monster and you a hero. The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos.

No one expected him to dare to throw reality into chaos, he was just wicked, killed for pleasure - that's why we wanted to take him down. If he actually wanted to make the Commander feel bad, he would actually play with us, but he was being a massive hypocrite all along. And when he started to preach us about how horrible we are... It would make sense, if Joko would actually care about Tyria, if he did, he would leave his Bone Palace and run to the Commander while attacking Maguuma or Orr and shout: WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING?! KILLING DRAGONS IS BAD!

And then he was just sitting there, talking that he twisted people's mind to believe that he defeated dragons etc. But why would he do that? Like... the whole Joko's plot was really stupid.

But surely no mortal would be so monumentally STUPID as to destroy a dragon, the life force of this world.

Thousands of mortals stood against Zhaitan and Mordremoth, because Zhaitan was threatening the whole Tyria, Risen's horde attacked everyone. Mordremoth twisted Sylvari's mind, made them do unforgivable things, we had to STOP them for the sake of Tyria's future - yes, we caused chaos after that, but that is just how chaotic Tyria is, no matter if we did or didn't kill the Dragons, it would lead to something even more bad.What Joko should have done is showing compassion towards the Commander, because the Commander wants to repair Tyria and has a lot of people behind him, that support him, but no matter what we all do... it turns against us - it's dramatic, Joko, if truly was a good and deep character, he would be able to leave his own 'shoot' and just stop being a hypocrite.

Let alone two. And a god to boot? Perhaps they will finally thank me for luring you to me...

Except, he was the one that teamed up with Balthazar in the first place - to cause chaos, and before that he just says: "The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos", like WTH?

He was talking some crap, that wasn't based on any wisdom. So meaningless...

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@"Arden.7480" said:I have a reasons to believe his "majestic, great, wow" speech didn't make sense, unless they wanted to make Joko such a hypocrite.

You keep calling Joko a hypocrite, but I think you fundamentally misunderstand what Joko was saying.

Joko is not claiming to be a hero or a particularly good/helpful force. Instead, he's just saying that the Commander is also not a particularly good/helpful force either, despite being called one.

I believe they wanted to make our minds twist, but failed completely with Aurene.

Agreed. I don't think it was an impressive story twist.

They call me a monster and you a hero. The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos.

No one expected him to dare to throw reality into chaos, he was just wicked, killed for pleasure - that's why we wanted to take him down.

You're just repeating things you don't understand, without analyzing it. What does "throwing reality into chaos" actually mean? Because frankly Joko can and does cause regular old chaos, porting Awakened forces all over the world, re-releasing the plague, etc. Being wicked and killing for pleasure can throw societies into chaos as well.

If I had to guess at what Joko specifically meant by "throwing reality into chaos", I think it was just a dramatic way of saying "end the world." Given that we took time to fight him, that to me means that we assessed the threat Joko posed as important enough to deal with alongside that posed by the Dragons - which are world-ending threats, or at least the biggest threats around. So at least some people thought Joko to be about as dangerous as anything can get in the world.

If he actually wanted to make the Commander feel bad, he would actually play with us, but he was being a massive hypocrite all along.

So.... freezing the Commander in place and then taunting them with a grandiose speech isn't playing with the Commander? And again with the hypocrite thing.

And when he started to preach us about how horrible we are... It would make sense, if Joko would actually care about Tyria, if he did, he would leave his Bone Palace and run to the Commander while attacking Maguuma or Orr and shout: WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING?! KILLING DRAGONS IS BAD!

Again, I think you misunderstand Joko, and are putting words into his mouth. He never once claimed to care about Tyria, he's just saying it's dumb how the Commander (who supposedly cares a lot about Tyria) was running around doing something so harmful to Tyria.

And then he was just sitting there, talking that he twisted people's mind to believe that he defeated dragons etc. But why would he do that? Like... the whole Joko's plot was really stupid.

Not sure what you know about international politics and history, but dictators throughout time demonstrated a hilarious tendency to take credit for things they didn't do. Arenanet didn't make up this behavior out of nothing - it's a very standard approach to brainwashing new generations of people born into a society closed off from the outside world.

I wish I had time for the rest of your post, but I don't right now. At any rate, the rest of what you said seems to stem from the same two misunderstandings:

(1) just because Joko calls the Commander a bad guy does not mean that Joko is calling himself a good guy at the same time, and(2) just because our intentions as the Commander are good doesn't necessarily excuse us from the negative consequences of our actions.

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I am completely behind Vol on this one, it's entirely consistent with Joko's character and how he's acted throughout the season. Hypocrisy would indicate Joko is pretending to be a thing he's not, and to the people of Elona he certainly is, but to his personal playthings he makes no bones about being just as wicked and cruel as he actually is. That's why I enjoyed Joko's speech so throughly, it wasn't raising himself above you, it was dragging you down to his level.

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@"Arden.7480" said:I have a reasons to believe his "majestic, great, wow" speech didn't make sense, unless they wanted to make Joko such a hypocrite.

He's a pathological liar and backstabber. Hypocrisy is a tiptoe away from that. That said, there wasn't anything really hypocritical in his speech to the Commander. It was full out gloating and demoralization.

IMO, the only thing about Joko's speech that didn't make sense was his reasoning for why people believed he killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth so easily. The only ones who believed that lie were Elonians that have been born and raised under the idea that Joko was a god-king and could do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. That was why they so easily believed him, not because he was a villain and the Commander a hero and killing Elder Dragons was bad, mkay.

But this just fits with Joko's personality of being a pathological liar and backstabber. He wanted to bring the Commander down, crush them physically and spiritually, and what better way than to point out that the heroic actions that injured the world were the most heinous and villainous of deeds.

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Joko likes psychological warfare, so the speech itself was not a surprise, but it was expected of Joko. The people find it great, because most gw2 villains doesnt talk too much, even the most "humanoids" like Balthazar or Caudecus. Also its very fit the Joko character build up, he likes mock/demoralize his enemies.

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Aurene's "ascension" at the end was like Christ when He ascended to heaven as God while His disciples looked on. It was the same principle. For this I am disappointed. I think that it was perhaps not very original for them to have Aurene "ascend" the way Christ did leaving His "friends" as He called them all watching Him.

I would prefer the lore not be so reminiscent of real people's faith in a game. I'd rather see something totally original and having nothing to do with religious beliefs in the world.

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